Official Spec Thread: Heart and Hustle Magic 2.0

[Tarheel]

Hey all, long time reader here, from Melbourne. Followed orlando since I took a serious interest in 2007.
I see alot of posters having pros and cons of players, but it's not everyday you get a KD or LBJ, so what directionn and identity do we want this team to have? Obviously we would all love that superstar to fall into our laps but I kind of invision us going down the nuggets path, yes they have jokic but who could of predicted what he would become?
Not here to start arguments or prove anyone's point wrong.

Welcome!

So for me I don’t really care how we get the star/become contenders I just hope the path we are on leads to the end goal that I’m sure we all want. Now I think it’s more likely we’ll try and acquire one once we are in line to do so, likely through trading rather than free agency. I think as of now the players we have are good players that can be 2nd or 3rd options (Franz, Suggs, WCJ) that’s dependent on how their development turns out but we are still early in so who knows!

I think this will be the strategy unless we have a couple of draft picks turn into legitimate stars. Accumulate high caliber assets through the draft and taking on dead money for stuff in return. Then either the assets you have turn the corner or you have enough of them to trade for a star. This is why individual player development is so key for the next year or two, to increase the value of assets that you can trade for the big fish.

Everyone here knows we need the A1 star, but I'm optimistic that Franz, Wendell and Suggs have the tools to be starters on a winning team. A star shooting guard and a center/tall PF that can protect the rim and hit the three (Chet? JI if he can ever play a full season?) rounds out a nice starting 5. I think Weltman is trying to acquire enough Cole/Okeke/RJ types that might outplay their value at the right time to capitalise on a trade when a star wants out and we're ready to start winning.

Orrrrrr Hammond has been tampering and tapping up Giannis since he left to join him in Orlando... [/greenfont]

[LDNMagic90]

Hey all, long time reader here, from Melbourne. Followed orlando since I took a serious interest in 2007.
I see alot of posters having pros and cons of players, but it's not everyday you get a KD or LBJ, so what directionn and identity do we want this team to have? Obviously we would all love that superstar to fall into our laps but I kind of invision us going down the nuggets path, yes they have jokic but who could of predicted what he would become?
Not here to start arguments or prove anyone's point wrong.

Welcome!

So for me I don’t really care how we get the star/become contenders I just hope the path we are on leads to the end goal that I’m sure we all want. Now I think it’s more likely we’ll try and acquire one once we are in line to do so, likely through trading rather than free agency. I think as of now the players we have are good players that can be 2nd or 3rd options (Franz, Suggs, WCJ) that’s dependent on how their development turns out but we are still early in so who knows!

I think this will be the strategy unless we have a couple of draft picks turn into legitimate stars. Accumulate high caliber assets through the draft and taking on dead money for stuff in return. Then either the assets you have turn the corner or you have enough of them to trade for a star. This is why individual player development is so key for the next year or two, to increase the value of assets that you can trade for the big fish.

Everyone here knows we need the A1 star, but I'm optimistic that Franz, Wendell and Suggs have the tools to be starters on a winning team. A star shooting guard and a center/tall PF that can protect the rim and hit the three (Chet? JI if he can ever play a full season?) rounds out a nice starting 5. I think Weltman is trying to acquire enough Cole/Okeke/RJ types that might outplay their value at the right time to capitalise on a trade when a star wants out and we're ready to start winning.

Orrrrrr Hammond has been tampering and tapping up Giannis since he left to join him in Orlando... [/greenfont]

I think this is why its imperative that we get the right coaches in, I don't just mean head coach either. We need to make sure we get good to excellent development coaches to pair with the right draft picks. Not the picks that think they already have it all, but the players that have talent and want to WORK.

[zaymon]

Hey all, long time reader here, from Melbourne. Followed orlando since I took a serious interest in 2007.
I see alot of posters having pros and cons of players, but it's not everyday you get a KD or LBJ, so what directionn and identity do we want this team to have? Obviously we would all love that superstar to fall into our laps but I kind of invision us going down the nuggets path, yes they have jokic but who could of predicted what he would become?
Not here to start arguments or prove anyone's point wrong.

If you dont have top offensive player you need elite defense. Better have both. Look at championship detroid, bucks, raptors.
Big strong point guard. Long wings/forwards and either center who can switch or space the floor ( in one or two players).
Suggs, Wagner, Carter fit. Chuma fits if he can defend wings/guards. Gary Harris fits to some extent as a strong wing, more in Raptors championship style.
Hampton could fit as a 3&d wing if he is really 6'6.

[sChOlaRlY_Magi]

Hey all, long time reader here, from Melbourne. Followed orlando since I took a serious interest in 2007.
I see alot of posters having pros and cons of players, but it's not everyday you get a KD or LBJ, so what directionn and identity do we want this team to have? Obviously we would all love that superstar to fall into our laps but I kind of invision us going down the nuggets path, yes they have jokic but who could of predicted what he would become?
Not here to start arguments or prove anyone's point wrong.

Welcome!

So for me I don’t really care how we get the star/become contenders I just hope the path we are on leads to the end goal that I’m sure we all want. Now I think it’s more likely we’ll try and acquire one once we are in line to do so, likely through trading rather than free agency. I think as of now the players we have are good players that can be 2nd or 3rd options (Franz, Suggs, WCJ) that’s dependent on how their development turns out but we are still early in so who knows!

I think this will be the strategy unless we have a couple of draft picks turn into legitimate stars. Accumulate high caliber assets through the draft and taking on dead money for stuff in return. Then either the assets you have turn the corner or you have enough of them to trade for a star. This is why individual player development is so key for the next year or two, to increase the value of assets that you can trade for the big fish.

Everyone here knows we need the A1 star, but I'm optimistic that Franz, Wendell and Suggs have the tools to be starters on a winning team. A star shooting guard and a center/tall PF that can protect the rim and hit the three (Chet? JI if he can ever play a full season?) rounds out a nice starting 5. I think Weltman is trying to acquire enough Cole/Okeke/RJ types that might outplay their value at the right time to capitalise on a trade when a star wants out and we're ready to start winning.

Orrrrrr Hammond has been tampering and tapping up Giannis since he left to join him in Orlando... [/greenfont]

Welcome Oldtimemagician!

[Knightro]

Hey all, long time reader here, from Melbourne. Followed orlando since I took a serious interest in 2007.
I see alot of posters having pros and cons of players, but it's not everyday you get a KD or LBJ, so what directionn and identity do we want this team to have? Obviously we would all love that superstar to fall into our laps but I kind of invision us going down the nuggets path, yes they have jokic but who could of predicted what he would become?
Not here to start arguments or prove anyone's point wrong.

Welcome my friend. We're glad to have you.

[RookieStar]

Hey all, long time reader here, from Melbourne. Followed orlando since I took a serious interest in 2007.
I see alot of posters having pros and cons of players, but it's not everyday you get a KD or LBJ, so what directionn and identity do we want this team to have? Obviously we would all love that superstar to fall into our laps but I kind of invision us going down the nuggets path, yes they have jokic but who could of predicted what he would become?
Not here to start arguments or prove anyone's point wrong.

Ok, if you really are an old soul like some of us, you know what comes next. Seems no one here has the guts to do it so i'll be the one to....

Do you honestly swear to worship and follow the true teachings of his lordship, Travis Diener?


JK. Welcome.

[Optimus_Steel]

Hey all, long time reader here, from Melbourne. Followed orlando since I took a serious interest in 2007.
I see alot of posters having pros and cons of players, but it's not everyday you get a KD or LBJ, so what directionn and identity do we want this team to have? Obviously we would all love that superstar to fall into our laps but I kind of invision us going down the nuggets path, yes they have jokic but who could of predicted what he would become?
Not here to start arguments or prove anyone's point wrong.

Other than drafting the next Lebron or Duncan, the quickest way to become competitive again is becoming a modern team, which is filling this roster with players that are average to good 3pt shooters. Would mean having 4 to 5 players on the floor at all times that are 3pt threats. If you look at the last decade, the 3pt % numbers are so bad....

[Oldtimemagician]

Thanks for the feedback everyone!
Id like to hope JI can be a positive and be a strong starter moving forward but until we see him return I just don't feel as though we can include him let alone assume he is going to start. His injury history of late reminds Me of peak D rose albeit less accomplished.

Franz looks to me as the guy every team would want if they can't have an A1 star. Like current miles/mikail bridges. Very solid players. You know what you will get.
So for me Franz and wcj are the only locks

[pepe1991]

Barnes can shoot, it's easy to develop that part of a game

[tiderulz]

Barnes can shoot, it's easy to develop that part of a game

but these guys are professionals. the average person doesnt realize how good they are

[pepe1991]

Barnes can shoot, it's easy to develop that part of a game

but these guys are professionals. the average person doesnt realize how good they are

Hyped him to be "pocket Ben Simmons" for playmaking, ends up being Ben Simmons for everything but playmaking

Maybe one day he will figure shooting out, but to that date he will be average nba part time center or homless Al Horford.

[Knightro]

If the Magic had drafted Scottie Barnes and he was doing exactly what he's been doing for Toronto (14-7-3-1-1) with break even defense according to RAPTOR and DBPM, we'd be falling all over ourselves with happiness.

He's a good player. Some of this slander is out of control

[zaymon]

If the Magic had drafted Scottie Barnes and he was doing exactly what he's been doing for Toronto (14-7-3-1-1) with break even defense according to RAPTOR and DBPM, we'd be falling all over ourselves with happiness.

He's a good player. Some of this slander is out of control

Right now he is overhyped role player. If we drafted Barnes or Kuminga they would look worse than Suggs. Hell Suggs looked like superstar next to them last night.

[Knightro]

Right now he is overhyped role player. If we drafted Barnes or Kuminga they would look worse than Suggs. Hell Suggs looked like superstar next to them last night.

This is just silliness. Barnes is playing 35 MPG for a team on pace to go 46-36.

There were people legitimately suggesting on this board that Barnes would not ever be able to shoot in the NBA and going so far as to say he'd never be able to score period. He's already increased his FT% by 11% from NCAA to now. 3PT% is up 4% too.

There's no need to pretend he hasn't been a good rookie, one of several very good rookies out of this year's class.

[PrimeThyme]

If the Magic had drafted Scottie Barnes and he was doing exactly what he's been doing for Toronto (14-7-3-1-1) with break even defense according to RAPTOR and DBPM, we'd be falling all over ourselves with happiness.

He's a good player. Some of this slander is out of control

I've been more impressed with what I've seen from Wagner so far. I went out on a limb the day after the draft and said I think Wagner would be the better player, && it's going to be an interesting H2H to track. I'd say as a whole Wagner has had the better rookie season.

I also don't think it's that silly to say that Barnes is a bit of an overhyped role player at this point. Granted, it is from a lot of Raptors fans that I read this from, but the amount of "he's going to be a superstar" based on what we've seen so far is a bit much IMO. He's pretty much a clean-up, transition, and occasional catch-and-shoot offensive player at this stage, && dating all the way back to his time at FSU he doesn't have quite the athleticism to guard 1/2's to be the uber elite switch all big he's touted as.

His shooting started off hot but he's down to 31% from 3 for the season now. For as much as this board values shooting, I think it's another stretch to say that this board would be ecstatic with the pick. It's still a work in progress.

[Knightro]

I've been more impressed with what I've seen from Wagner so far. I went out on a limb the day after the draft and said I think Wagner would be the better player, && it's going to be an interesting H2H to track. I'd say as a whole Wagner has had the better rookie season.

I also don't think it's that silly to say that Barnes is a bit of an overhyped role player at this point. Granted, it is from a lot of Raptors fans that I read this from, but the amount of "he's going to be a superstar" based on what we've seen so far is a bit much IMO. He's pretty much a clean-up, transition, and occasional catch-and-shoot offensive player at this stage, && dating all the way back to his time at FSU he doesn't have quite the athleticism to guard 1/2's to be the uber elite switch all big he's touted as.

His shooting started off hot but he's down to 31% from 3 for the season now. For as much as this board values shooting, I think it's another stretch to say that this board would be ecstatic with the pick. It's still a work in progress.

But it's not even a Wagner v. Barnes debate. Both guys have been good in different ways. Barnes is a much better rebounder and seems more capable of defending 4s and 5s. Wagner is a much better shooter and seems more capable of defending guards and smaller wings.

I just always find it a little funny how much the goal posts (not saying you're doing this btw) gradually move on certain guys.

I could go back and find literally a dozen different arguments that Barnes wouldn't be able to finish, wouldn't be able to shoot, was scared to shoot, was scared to drive because he couldn't make free throws etc etc etc.

Now a little over halfway into his rookie year he's not nearly the overwhelming negative offensively that a lot of people seemed to think he'd be and the arguments have shifted from "he'll always be a horrible offensive player" to "he'll never be a great offensive player" or "he's overhyped" and those subtle movement towards the center of the debate always make me laugh.

I also wouldn't read too much into anything the Raptors RealGM fan base says. They're a special group of people to put it nicely (psychotic to put it more aggressively)

[Bensational]

All this Barnes talk is just a smoke screen so nobody talks about the triple double machine Giddey.

Mobley and Barnes being significant parts of winning teams is super refreshing to watch though. Neither are dominant superstars but they’ve helped improve their teams immediately. It’s inspiring to see from a rebuild perspective.

[RookieStar]

All this Barnes talk is just a smoke screen so nobody talks about the triple double machine Giddey.

Mobley and Barnes being significant parts of winning teams is super refreshing to watch though. Neither are dominant superstars but they’ve helped improve their teams immediately. It’s inspiring to see from a rebuild perspective.

OH lawwwwwdddd... lol

|I already gave you props for being right in your Giddy hype machine... but personally, I think Suggs can be a better player in a better team long term than Giddy.

[zaymon]

Right now he is overhyped role player. If we drafted Barnes or Kuminga they would look worse than Suggs. Hell Suggs looked like superstar next to them last night.

This is just silliness. Barnes is playing 35 MPG for a team on pace to go 46-36.

There were people legitimately suggesting on this board that Barnes would not ever be able to shoot in the NBA and going so far as to say he'd never be able to score period. He's already increased his FT% by 11% from NCAA to now. 3PT% is up 4% too.

There's no need to pretend he hasn't been a good rookie, one of several very good rookies out of this year's class.

There are players who shoot 40% from 3 and are still role players i dont understand your logic there.

Deandre Jordan played 35 minutes for a team that went 57-25, he even made 3 all nba selections. Chris Paul was so lucky that Deandre Jordan made his carrier.

I dont know what future holds for Barnes, he is good for a rookie but has very simple limited role right now. Those who compare him to Kawhi and Giannis are silly not me.

[pepe1991]

Barnes is very good example how much better prospects who play on good team actually look because they are tasked to do less.

Barnes gets his points from garbage points and scoring in paint, his shot chart looks like he is center, mostly because he even spends part of PT as center.
But his team has allstar PG, allstar, nba championship winning PF and potentially allstar SF.
His role is fairly similar to last year's Boucher role and even Birch role but he plays insaine 35-37 min a game so there is fair inflation of his stats.


As for shooting, he can't really shoot. 68% of all shots he takes are inside 16 feet, including 56% inside 10 feet.
He shoots 31% for 3 on 41 made threes & 49 games. That's only good if you spent watching Elfrid Payton last 10 years. For rest of a league that's really bad. Also level difficulty of his 3s is super low low. Elfrid Payton low. 127 out of 131 shots he took were either open or wide open. Matter of fact over 50% of all three point attemps he took he was not guarded by anybody, not even close ( closest defender further than 6 feet away ). Yet, he shoots 31% from them. For comparison sake, OG , person who can shoot, on same team, only can take 32% of all his 3s wide open, because unlike Barnes, teams actually try to contest his shots.
On top of that, most 3s he is allowed to take are corner 3s ( graph below )

Barnes on Pistons, Magic would be overused ballhandler who would tank offense for sake of "Playmaking" because that was thing about him pre -draft . On Toronto he is 4th to 5th most important starter who plays his role and Nurse uses his youthness & energy to play him as much as it's possible.
He plays similar role Ibaka used to play. Honestlly, Pascal Siakam nowdays is more what Barnes was advertised to be, than Barnes. Siakam is that versitale 6'9 SF-PF who creates shots for others, playmakes and finishes plays.