SPURS GAME DAY! GAME 60: SPURS AT THUNDER, 16-2-2022, 7PM (CT)

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Re: SPURS GAME DAY! GAME 60: SPURS AT THUNDER, 16-2-2022, 7PM (CT) 

Post#41 » by imagump1313 » Thu Feb 17, 2022 2:43 pm

Phreak50 wrote:I don't blame you guys for teasing Lonnie.

I've done that to a bunch of players here over the years.

But I honestly see him growing and being a piece in various recent wins.

His positives far outweigh his negatives.

Like Jordan Clarkson, Lou Williams, Jamal Crawford etc.

But with a lot more talent and potential.


His athleticism cannot be taught. He does take some bad shots but his physical abilities make him open for almost every shot he takes. You cant give up on that. He just needs to work on having a more consistent shot and not tossing up bricks early in the shot clock all game. If he can do that he will be just fine.
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Re: SPURS GAME DAY! GAME 60: SPURS AT THUNDER, 16-2-2022, 7PM (CT) 

Post#42 » by G R E Y » Thu Feb 17, 2022 5:39 pm

4TH Q: SPURS 114

THUNDER 106

On the one hand I can’t see how we lost to this team previously, but then again, I can.

It wasn’t exactly a 4TH Q meltdown despite only scoring 10 points by the half way point (again) but it was a slow cooling off from the first half burn until the second half of the final 12 minutes when we finally caught fire again, at least enough to put just enough distance between us.

And even then we went away from what was successful into irate Pop territory. There he was on the sideline with his arms up when Jakob was defending on the perimeter. Jakob must have seen him as he was all but facing Pop. Didn’t do it until he had to contest the shot. Then Jakob did it again as Pop was on the sideline showing what he wants. At least Jakob has the length to block shots. Keldon and Doug less so.

It’s one of those games where when a player gives you 20 points on 10-14, 0-1FT, 17 boards (6 on O) along with 5 assists and 2 blocks and disrupted several more shots near the rim, you don’t want to nitpick. But it’s still in Pop’s nature to keep teaching to do better where needed.

Jakob was our cog in this game as we had a clear advantage down low and used it well. He had no help scoring-wide from Zach who was 0-2, 0-1 from 3, but given the opportunities he had, we clearly weren’t looking to set him up. Zach pretty much did clean up duty as his 16 minutes provided rest for Jakob and he grabbed 6 boards (1 on O), make 1 assist, and get 1 block. Our Cs each had 3 TO’s, so not the cleanest game.

We had 13 TO’s but gave up only 10 points off of them. The TO’s by our bigs were offset by the boards work, which we won 57-50 overall, down one 15-14 on O. Our Cs combined for 23 of them (7 on O) and combined for 6 assists. Solid extra help for our team.

Although Devin struggled to score again (15 on 6-14, 2-8 from 3, 1-1FT) but it was encouraging that he was second to DJ with 6 assists to go along with 5 boards (1 on O), and 1 block. He defended well, actively grabbed rebounds from opponent grasp, and when he drove to the rim it was with an aesthetic beauty and pretty finger roll reminiscent of Gervin. I would like to see Devin start driving to the rim to get his shot going. Other than that, he had a solid all around game with improvements in areas beyond scoring.

A contrasting style is Keldon’s physical, energetic drives and yells, leading us with 22 on once again efficient 7-14, only 1-4 from 3, but led us with an excellent 7-7FTs. He added 7 boards (3 on O), 2 assists, 2 steals. He once again needed to keep his hands up on D, has to rotate out better to contest. He did terrific work on the boards and drives, and we really needed his energy when the team was in the doldrums.

Doug was his driving and 3s shooting self – something I think I write after every game – but it goes to his steadiness and reliability for us. In this game he scored 16 on 5-11, 3-6 from 3, 3-4FTs, with 3 boards (1 on O). Doug got lost rather badly on screens, however, and it made for a lot of open shots as he couldn’t decide whether to go over or under and the open shots went up. He gets switched on when games are close as opponents seek the advantage his leaky D provides. He was a plus player tonight thanks to his efficiency, but we lucked out that a lot of opponent shots missed.

That leaves DJ as the minutes leader at 36 along with DJ and frankly we needed both of them to play these minutes even though our opponent has a worse record and were without six players. DJ scored 18 on 8-18, 1-3 from 3, 1-1FT, with 7 boards (2 on O), team high 8 assists, and 1 steal. He was a surprising 1 as he was tasked with guarding two young PG both of whom outscored him. He gave us enough even as he was pushing to find his shot. Some were uncharacteristically ill-advised like a 3 early in the clock off his dribble in the 4TH Q when we needed steady leadership with the ball to preserve an increasingly precarious lead. He missed. Pop called a timeout. What’s a coach to do? Teach and keep teaching.

And it’s not that we don’t know better. We do and we’ve shown it in other games, but we frankly had an air at times of not taking this opponent too seriously and it was to our own detriment. I really REALLY didn’t like the barrage of 3s we chose to bloody take too early in the clock in the 4TH Q. We KNOW we should execute our sets and run the clock. We KNOW we shouldn’t take the open 3 in that situation but at least wait so as to control the time and limit opponent chances if nothing else. The cherry on top was the bloody TO’s again. Just... uuugh...

But if you look at DJ’s Instagram, the team was clearly in celebration for vacation mode in the locker room, and overall I’m glad we staved off a bitter pill we’d have to be digesting for the next nine days. Just...

What pushed us over the top was one Lonnie Walker IV, who shot the ball come hell or high water. He was the sixth Spur in double figures, leading the bench with 17 on a rough 6-16, 2-7 from 3, 3-4FTs, along with 5 boards, 2 assists, and 1 block in bench high 28 minutes. He was second to DJ in FGAs so he was in green – light mode to shoot and shoot some more – decisions which need a LOT of bloody work. Like how do you not notice that you’re once again sucking from 3 and once again taking 3 after 3 without passing and so early in the clock? How? BUT we frankly do not with without his contribution in the game.

Pop ran a tne-man unit, but the other bench players combined for SIX points. Primo looks out of his depth quite a lot of the time. He tries hard to recover on drives when beaten by a screen or first step and at times gets the contest or block and at others get put on a driver’s hip which is used to create space. Play and learn. Like a lot of rookies getting minutes at the next level, he struggles with efficiency, going 0-5, 0-3 from 3, 1-2FTs. Five boards and 2 assists filled out his 12 minutes. Diop had some good defensive moments with his length bothering shooters, but otherwise quiet 11 minutes. That leaves us with new Spur Josh Richardson. He’s not shy in taking 3s which is actually good for us, and that was the only make for us as he went 1-2 from 3 and 1-4 overall. But what really stood out is his defensive intelligence. He always positioned himself to get into passing lanes, he got good position on the man he had to defend down low, he read the oncoming switch and sagged under screens well before they could be set – THIS is how it’s done! He’ll fit right in. Smooth release, intelligent defense. He added 2 assists, and 1 block and so was a Spursy team high +14 in 14 minutes. Welcome to the team, Josh.

We had a solid 29 assists, got back to taking and making more 3s (10-34), drove downhill and with physicality to get the the FT line where we made 18-22, and still won points in the paint 60-54. Our repeat patterns that we need to clean up include settling for outside shots too early in the clock when we are trying to preserve a lead. Why we tried trading baskets like it was some W/L roulette game is beyond me. It baffled Pop, and commentators alike, yet there we were giving up 4-6 point swings with their quick makes from outside or on drives in exchange for our quick misses. I really do think we were in AS vacation mode, and it was a distraction as the game progressed. We poured in 73 points in the first half but only 41 in the entire second half, meaning we scored two fewer points in the final 24 minutes than we did in the 2ND Q. Having given ourselves a cushion, we rode it out. Bumpy final stretch, but we made enough stops, ran enough plays, got lucky enough with enough of their misses and withstood their final push. We did hustle for rebounds and loose balls, give a good defensive push back in the final few minutes in which we had a hard time scoring, and pulled through with enough of a cushion lead to absorb the mistakes along the way.

We have a great camaraderie that helped get us through the rough part of the game, even if a lot of them were self-inflicted. Our opponent did make an earnest push and we did enough to make sure we protected our lead and secured a crucial win. A hard earned rest now to reward this young developing team that has already won more games on the RRT than the vet-reliant one last season. We have a challenging finish to the RRT when we return, so let’s rest up and come back ready to finish strong.
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Re: SPURS GAME DAY! GAME 60: SPURS AT THUNDER, 16-2-2022, 7PM (CT) 

Post#43 » by G R E Y » Thu Feb 17, 2022 5:51 pm

imagump1313 wrote:
Phreak50 wrote:I don't blame you guys for teasing Lonnie.

I've done that to a bunch of players here over the years.

But I honestly see him growing and being a piece in various recent wins.

His positives far outweigh his negatives.

Like Jordan Clarkson, Lou Williams, Jamal Crawford etc.

But with a lot more talent and potential.


His athleticism cannot be taught. He does take some bad shots but his physical abilities make him open for almost every shot he takes. You cant give up on that. He just needs to work on having a more consistent shot and not tossing up bricks early in the shot clock all game. If he can do that he will be just fine.

Hey gents, posted these in another thread, but good to highlight them again.

On the one hand, there's this:
Read on Twitter


So that's good!

However, taking the longer view in the context of his NBA career and his draft class peers, here's where Lonnie ranks:
Read on Twitter


There's no denying that's damning on him. Now you can argue well he missed a year, he had to work to get more minutes, his role(s) grew over time, all of which affected his rank. However, we can't also ignore that in each of the last three seasons (including the present one), Lonnie has improved in some areas - defensive awareness, willingness to drive and absorb physicality, off ball movement - he has slipped further in efficiency. He is SECOND on the team in usage behind DJ. And the bigger his usage, the worse his efficiency both from distance and, bizarrely, finishing at the rim.

More games like the last three or so will help the efficiency at the rim. And maybe now in year 4 (year 3 in terms of playing time), towards the end of it, he's putting more of his game together. I guess we'll know more in the final quarter or so of the season. And if he stays consistent then credit to him for leveling up. But you can also see where the skepticism comes from: super athletic but needs ball in his hands a disproportionate amount of time for what the team gets out of it much of the time. I hope I'm wrong and he turns a corner, but he has a steep hill to climb. Athleticism is one thing; overall game is another. Hopefully he keeps putting it together.
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Re: SPURS GAME DAY! GAME 60: SPURS AT THUNDER, 16-2-2022, 7PM (CT) 

Post#44 » by Phreak50 » Thu Feb 17, 2022 8:43 pm

I thought the graph makes him look pretty good actually.
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Re: SPURS GAME DAY! GAME 60: SPURS AT THUNDER, 16-2-2022, 7PM (CT) 

Post#45 » by G R E Y » Fri Feb 18, 2022 1:55 am

Phreak50 wrote:I thought the graph makes him look pretty good actually.

But Phreak - he's actually last in his draft class in the graph...
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Re: SPURS GAME DAY! GAME 60: SPURS AT THUNDER, 16-2-2022, 7PM (CT) 

Post#46 » by Phreak50 » Fri Feb 18, 2022 6:08 am

Is he not ahead of Ayton there? I can't quite see the face.

It's not great but given he has been injured and also rarely given the confidence and support from his coach (remember in his early days he would play the last 30 seconds of games and it wasn't unusual for a dnp after a good game) and a plethora of guards often playing behind a ball dominant Demar, it's not bad at all. Look how much worse it could be to the left there.
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Re: SPURS GAME DAY! GAME 60: SPURS AT THUNDER, 16-2-2022, 7PM (CT) 

Post#47 » by G R E Y » Fri Feb 18, 2022 8:08 am

The horizontal is just minutes played; Lonnie is about middle of the pack here. The vertical is what each player has done with those minutes; higher is better - "A score of zero indicates a player was perfectly average (by no means a bad thing for rookies or lifelong end-of-bench players), while anything positive means they were better than an average-level replacement." Per link in tweet.

Lonnie's second on the team in usage behind DJ this season - 10.6GAs; This is up 3% from the previous season where he ranked sixth - 10.2FGAs; which itself was up almost 3% from 2019-20 where he was ninth in usage - 5.9FGAs (his first season, really as his first was recovery).

In each season, his efficiency has dropped so that it's not near the bottom of the team this season. So that chart shows his rank even considering the saved points on better D, too.
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Re: SPURS GAME DAY! GAME 60: SPURS AT THUNDER, 16-2-2022, 7PM (CT) 

Post#48 » by JeffReal » Fri Feb 18, 2022 8:55 pm

Lonnie’s 3pt shooting has gone bad this season. Don’t know why.

Last season he had 4.7 attempts per game, and shot .355. Not the greatest, but it looked like something to build on.

This season he’s still at 4.7 attempts per game, but his avg is .294.

Did he have a rough start, and is he trending up? We’re four months into the season, so how about the last two months?

Feel free to check my arithmetic, but at a quick scan, over the last two months he’s 36 of 123 for .293. The same, no upward trend.

The last one month? I find 15 of 55 for .273. It’s worse. If anything, he’s trending down.

Lonnie is not a player who will give high assist numbers, like White. It would take a huge amount of developmental work to turn him into a playmaker for the team. Also, he doesn’t, and won’t, be a difference-maker for rebounds, compared to what many others could do. Nor does he look like any threat to lead the league in steals. And altho his defense looks improved, he isn’t likely to become an ultra-tough defender like Thybulle.

What that leaves is, to be on the team as a shooting guard, which is his only possibility, he has to score. In connection with that, he has to shoot well from the arc. If not, defenses can start to sag, making life more difficult for our other players. At that .273 over the last month, he’s getting into “sag” territory.

My view is, unless Lonnie comes on very strong with the 3pt shooting during the last part of the season, the Spurs should let him go, and devote their attention to other players.
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Re: SPURS GAME DAY! GAME 60: SPURS AT THUNDER, 16-2-2022, 7PM (CT) 

Post#49 » by Phreak50 » Wed Feb 23, 2022 1:03 am

I think more than anything it says a lot about Demar getting people open vs Dejounte simply getting stats.
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Re: SPURS GAME DAY! GAME 60: SPURS AT THUNDER, 16-2-2022, 7PM (CT) 

Post#50 » by G R E Y » Wed Feb 23, 2022 2:31 am

Phreak50 wrote:I think more than anything it says a lot about Demar getting people open vs Dejounte simply getting stats.

What does that even mean? DJ's been head and shoulders our most important and impactful player with his play. He's well beyond 'simply getting stats'. What a weird thing to say after he's repped the Spurs so well at the AS game, too. It's just an unsubstantiated comment.

If this means that DD got Lonnie the ball more, again, Lonnie is second on the team in usage. He gets the ball plenty. And he was behind DD in minutes so this actually cleared the way for Lonnie to get yet another, and yet another bigger chance to prove himself. Still ranks near last on the team in impactful categories.

At some point, Lonnie has to shoulder responsibility for his own play, especially when younger players are leaping him in similar and even more challenging circumstances.
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Re: SPURS GAME DAY! GAME 60: SPURS AT THUNDER, 16-2-2022, 7PM (CT) 

Post#51 » by G R E Y » Wed Feb 23, 2022 2:38 am

And to add to Jeff's comment, Lonnie's 2s haven't fared much better. The last few games he's finishing better at the rim, but it's hardly a sample size to get excited about.

With the emergence of Devin and Primo in the pipeline, it makes me wonder, too, whether what we got back for Derrick is in some way insurance for Lonnie should he depart.

I'm all for asset retention, and wouldn't like to lose him for nothing, but he's reportedly been on the trade block for a long time and we haven't found a deal to our liking. Both say something about how his game is valued.
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