Political Roundtable Part XXX

[Zonkerbl]

lots of "blaming the victim" energy in this thread. Russia has had nukes pointed at them from minutes away from West Germany for decades and decades. They tried to retaliate IN THE SIXTIES by putting nukes in Cuba and we booted the mfers out.

I think it's possible to recognize US foreign policy **** ups while also recognizing that Putin is a megalomaniac ****.

Those aren't exactly two competing ideas, nor is it victim blaming.

The argument being made in this thread, currently, is that Biden is at fault for Putin's invasion of Ukraine. That's victim blaming. There are alternative, non-violent, diplomatic solutions for the complaints Putin is making and he knows this. He has veto power in the UN for chrissake. He has plenty of tools at his disposal to get what he wants peacefully. He is deliberately flexing his military muscles using NATO encroachment as an excuse. The fact of the matter is NATO was right and Putin is a threat to peace in eastern europe and he's proving it now. Facts are facts.

Is United States imperialism also a threat to world peace? Yes. Is that relevant in this situation? A little. But Putin threw the first punch. He's guilty.

Has the United States been awash in anti-Soviet propaganda since the fifties and we are just now learning that other players in this game have a different perspective on the US' role in the fear and terror we all lived through during the cold war? I welcome the daylight this episode is shedding on US imperialism.

Interesting to see republicans, who are so terrified of feeling the slightest bit uncomfortable about acknowledging the damage white supremacy has inflicted on minorities in this country, have absolutely no compunction against acknowledging the damage US imperialism has inflicted on our poor little nuclear armed buddy Russia. The conservative brain is a fascinating place.

[pancakes3]

Ah yes, I see we are at the "everything I disagree with is Russian propaganda" stage of the discussion.

Getting a segment of the U.S population to side with a Dictator invading a sovereign country and against all of the U.S.'s allies trying to stop it, is a remarkable achievement in propaganda.

Has nothing to do with propaganda. If Texas seceded from the United States and then became a Russian satellite country, would you not see that as a problem? That is basically what happened. Has nothing to do with Russian propaganda…simply ridiculous considering pretty much every media outlet with a voice has a pro-western stance.

This is absolutely not what happened. First off, Ukraine is not a breakaway province, and Russia is not reclaiming its rightful land. Russia is straight up taking another country's land. That's the propaganda, or at least a portion of it.

The current incarnation of the Russian State has never had claim to Ukrainian land, or Crimea for that matter. Putin is laying claim to it based off tenuous historical roots. This doesn't even go into the long history of attempts at rebellion for the eastern bloc nations dating back centuries, trying to get out from under the bootheels of various empires, be it Russian, Lithuanian/Pollack, Prussian, etc. Or get into the concepts of a nation's "rightful land" or that the invasion is indicative of the will of the people, etc.

A closer (but still strained) analogy would be if the US decided to invade the Philippines to prevent it from becoming a Chinese puppet country, using the claim that the Philippines was under US rule back in 1946. And yes. That would be a problem.

[closg00]

Getting a segment of the U.S population to side with a Dictator invading a sovereign country and against all of the U.S.'s allies trying to stop it, is a remarkable achievement in propaganda.

Has nothing to do with propaganda. If Texas seceded from the United States and then became a Russian satellite country, would you not see that as a problem? That is basically what happened. Has nothing to do with Russian propaganda…simply ridiculous considering pretty much every media outlet with a voice has a pro-western stance.

This is absolutely not what happened. First off, Ukraine is not a breakaway province, and Russia is not reclaiming its rightful land. Russia is straight up taking another country's land. That's the propaganda, or at least a portion of it.

The current incarnation of the Russian State has never had claim to Ukrainian land, or Crimea for that matter. Putin is laying claim to it based off tenuous historical roots. This doesn't even go into the long history of attempts at rebellion for the eastern bloc nations dating back centuries, trying to get out from under the bootheels of various empires, be it Russian, Lithuanian/Pollack, Prussian, etc. Or get into the concepts of a nation's "rightful land" or that the invasion is indicative of the will of the people, etc.

A closer (but still strained) analogy would be if the US decided to invade the Philippines to prevent it from becoming a Chinese puppet country, using the claim that the Philippines was under US rule back in 1946. And yes. That would be a problem.

My bad, my understanding of he history was that Ukraine was part of the former USSR sphere of influence and control for decades until the USSR dissolved, and with it, it's control of it's satellites. So the excuses for feeling bad for Dictator Putin are even weaker than I thought.

[closg00]

Watch on YouTube

[pancakes3]

Has nothing to do with propaganda. If Texas seceded from the United States and then became a Russian satellite country, would you not see that as a problem? That is basically what happened. Has nothing to do with Russian propaganda…simply ridiculous considering pretty much every media outlet with a voice has a pro-western stance.

This is absolutely not what happened. First off, Ukraine is not a breakaway province, and Russia is not reclaiming its rightful land. Russia is straight up taking another country's land. That's the propaganda, or at least a portion of it.

The current incarnation of the Russian State has never had claim to Ukrainian land, or Crimea for that matter. Putin is laying claim to it based off tenuous historical roots. This doesn't even go into the long history of attempts at rebellion for the eastern bloc nations dating back centuries, trying to get out from under the bootheels of various empires, be it Russian, Lithuanian/Pollack, Prussian, etc. Or get into the concepts of a nation's "rightful land" or that the invasion is indicative of the will of the people, etc.

A closer (but still strained) analogy would be if the US decided to invade the Philippines to prevent it from becoming a Chinese puppet country, using the claim that the Philippines was under US rule back in 1946. And yes. That would be a problem.

My bad, my understanding of he history was that Ukraine was part of the former USSR sphere of influence and control for decades until the USSR dissolved, and with it, it's control of it's satellites. So the excuses for feeling bad for Dictator Putin are even weaker than I thought.

No, you're right in that Ukraine used to part of the USSR but just by being part of the USSR doesn't mean it's participation was voluntary. There were wars of independence fought after the Tsarists fell, and WW2 put a pause on that. I'm just saying, after USSR fell, Ukraine was independent, and is not part of Russia, sphere of influence or not.

[Zonkerbl]

Uh, Ukraine was not a country until 1991. It had always, always been a border region, or "krai" of Russia before that. Thus the name, U Krai, at the border.

[Pointgod]

Underestimating Russia and its resolve to protect its interests squarely falls onto the shoulders of the USA and its NATO partners.

How would the US react if the tables were turned with Russian allies establishing foothold in South America?

Forcing eastward NATO expansion was a blunder of epic proportions.

Well considering that the US has faced criticism worldwide as an occupying force in Iraq, they’d be in the wrong for military action unprovoked. Diplomacy is an option and it shouldn’t be only brought up in one sided criticism of the US.

The argument that you’re making is that Mexico would be justified in attacking the southern US because Texas was at one time part of Mexico and it’s in their interests to take territory from the US. I’d assume national interests kind of stop when you’re invading a sovereign nation unprovoked.

Acting like Putin would only expand his influence in Europe because of NATO is the equivalent of the abuser saying blaming his wife for hitting her.

The argument that I am making is that Putin's reaction was predictable and that NATO's framing of Russia as a persistent threat to peace in Europe was a self-fulfilling prophecy.

There is countless material out there on the subject, Putin's actions are the chickens coming home to roost.

Interesting read if you have a minute.

edit:
https://fr.art1lib.org/book/9647073/f5bad5

I appreciate you providing the link and I’ve read through Rene article. A couple of things to consider:

1. Paper is from 2008 and based on a writing from the late 90’s. Looking backwards it’s easy to play Monday morning quarterback and say that NATO is to blame but it completely ignores that the Russian government couldn’t possibly be more aggressive in their expansionist policies which leads to the next point

2. The paper throws a lot of weight on the fact that Russia is going to be some benevolent force in the region only looking to protect its borders. Even in the 90’s there were a number of reasons that Russia could expand its sphere of influence

3. Painting NATO expansion as the culprit ignores that there are some former Soviet countries and countries that actually want to be part of NATO. Why should those nations not have self determination and joint NATO does not have to mean a military presence. In the paper you provided it evens spells it on on page 17 that members of NATO could take advantage of the political benefits without necessarily changing the military benefits. An honest broker would have sought out a diplomatic solution and sought out other incentives/assurances for Ukraine to not join NATO.

Which brings me back to my original point about Russia using the abuser rhetoric of “you made me do this”. According to the Primakov Doctrine Russia’s main goal is to expand its sphere of influence as a counterbalance to US influence. This started in 90’s and you can see it’s influence today with how Putin has sought to expand Russian influence. It’s one thing if they’re expanding soft power, but another they’re invading sovereign countries or using military intervention. This is all part of ongoing Russian imperialism, NATO or no NATO. Make no mistake China has done the same, but if dumbass countries want to make deals with the devil, then so be it but it’s another to invade independent countries.

https://carnegieendowment.org/2019/02/20/russia-s-global-ambitions-in-perspective-pub-78067

Going back to your paper, it cites that Russia needs psychological security more then physical security. That’s why I don’t believe any appease would work. Putin has delusions of grandeur and wants to expand the Russian empire. He’ll lie, gaslight and manipulate to get whatever he wants. Does this sound like the words of a rational person?

https://www.themoscowtimes.com/2022/02/22/rewriting-history-putin-pitches-russia-as-defender-of-an-expanding-motherland-a76518

At the end of the day where we differ is the culpability of NATO in this. I’d argue that this would have happened NATO or no NATO, especially since Putin could address his concerns through diplomacy and cooperation. At the end of the day Putin invaded Ukraine, not NATO. Putin attacked Georgia, not NATO. Putin annexed Crimea not NATO and ironically this will probably push more countries to join NATO because Putin’s showing he’s a maniac that can’t be trusted.

[Kanyewest]

The State Border Guard Service reports that due to the imposition of martial law in Ukraine, a certain category of citizens is temporarily restricted from leaving Ukraine. Specifically, male citizens of Ukraine aged 18 to 60 are prohibited from leaving Ukraine

https://www.pravda.com.ua/eng/news/2022/02/24/7325577/

[pancakes3]

Uh, Ukraine was not a country until 1991. It had always, always been a border region, or "krai" of Russia before that. Thus the name, U Krai, at the border.

Russia wasn’t a country until 1991 either. And the Ukraine had always, always been a border region to a number of different nations, but still has its own, localized, and albeit informal national identity.

If we go back to the Texas analogy, if Texas legitimately wanted to secede, and wasn’t able to for centuries because of the Spanish Empire and later the American empire exercising dictatorial force and was kept under a boot heel, but eventually won its independence, and decades later a reinvigorated US came back to reclaim it - do you think the US has a “rightful claim” to Texas?

[Zonkerbl]

Uh, Ukraine was not a country until 1991. It had always, always been a border region, or "krai" of Russia before that. Thus the name, U Krai, at the border.

Russia wasn’t a country until 1991 either. And the Ukraine had always, always been a border region to a number of different nations, but still has its own, localized, and albeit informal national identity.

If we go back to the Texas analogy, if Texas legitimately wanted to secede, and wasn’t able to for centuries because of the Spanish Empire and later the American empire exercising dictatorial force and was kept under a boot heel, but eventually won its independence, and decades later a reinvigorated US came back to reclaim it - do you think the US has a “rightful claim” to Texas?

Haha, WHAT? Who fought with us in wwi?

[queridiculo]

Uh, Ukraine was not a country until 1991. It had always, always been a border region, or "krai" of Russia before that. Thus the name, U Krai, at the border.

Russia wasn’t a country until 1991 either. And the Ukraine had always, always been a border region to a number of different nations, but still has its own, localized, and albeit informal national identity.

If we go back to the Texas analogy, if Texas legitimately wanted to secede, and wasn’t able to for centuries because of the Spanish Empire and later the American empire exercising dictatorial force and was kept under a boot heel, but eventually won its independence, and decades later a reinvigorated US came back to reclaim it - do you think the US has a “rightful claim” to Texas?

Haha, WHAT? Who fought with us in wwi?

The Soviet Union

Saying that Ukraine was never a country is like saying that Israel was never a country before 1948.

The history of the Slavs is long and complex and the Ukrainian's struggle for recognition and independence has been a part of that for nearly a thousand years.

[queridiculo]

Also conveniently ignores Republicans overwhelmingly supporting NATO membership for Ukraine in 2014.

The GOP and its lackeys are just shameful.

There has been a massive shift in Republican opinions on NATO expansion in the past 8 years. Most of it thanks to Trump. Republicans of 2022 do not have the same opinions as Republicans of 2014. They have mostly purged the neoCons (Bill Krystal, David Frum, Jennifer Rubin, etc.) from the party. Trump mistakenly courted warmonger John Bolton but that didn't end well, which further pushed the Trump wing of the Republican party away from their previous warmonger tendencies. This doesn't mean that all Republicans are peaceniks or anything, but I'd venture to say that pro-war saber-rattling is now coming from Democrats even more than Republicans.

I mean this is basically nonsense.

Trump never had a position on NATO that wasn't informed by off the cuff talking points and a superficial understanding of its function.

Republicans of 2022 are just Trump bootlickers that follow the GOPs mantra of using the news cycle to take ludicrous and contrarian positions to the Democrats.

I'll pay attention to what the Republicans have to say the second they take an official position or produce original thought on just about anything.

[Zonkerbl]

Russia wasn’t a country until 1991 either. And the Ukraine had always, always been a border region to a number of different nations, but still has its own, localized, and albeit informal national identity.

If we go back to the Texas analogy, if Texas legitimately wanted to secede, and wasn’t able to for centuries because of the Spanish Empire and later the American empire exercising dictatorial force and was kept under a boot heel, but eventually won its independence, and decades later a reinvigorated US came back to reclaim it - do you think the US has a “rightful claim” to Texas?

Haha, WHAT? Who fought with us in wwi?

The Soviet Union

Saying that Ukraine was never a country is like saying that Israel was never a country before 1948.

The history of the Slavs is long and complex and the Ukrainian's struggle for recognition and independence has been a part of that for nearly a thousand years.

WORLD WAR ONE. Soviet Union was formed at the end of it. Russia existed as a country/empire for several centuries before that.

Wow dude really? What country do you think War and Peace takes place in? The Brothers Karamazov? Where do you think Tchaikovsky is from? What is the Disney movie Anastasia about?

[queridiculo]

Haha, WHAT? Who fought with us in wwi?

The Soviet Union

Saying that Ukraine was never a country is like saying that Israel was never a country before 1948.

The history of the Slavs is long and complex and the Ukrainian's struggle for recognition and independence has been a part of that for nearly a thousand years.

WORLD WAR ONE. Soviet Union was formed at the end of it. Russia existed as a country/empire for several centuries before that.

Wow dude really? What country do you think War and Peace takes place in? The Brothers Karamazov? Where do you think Tchaikovsky is from? What is the Disney movie Anastasia about?

Read that as ww2..

[Zonkerbl]

Ukraine has a right to exist because they formed a sovereign nation after the breakup of the Soviet Union and we promised to protect them in exchange for being a barrier to Russian expansionism, if Russia ever decided to go that route, and they did, so we were right to do it. All the stupid arguments about it being our fault were disproven when Russia launched the attack that we made friends with Ukraine to try to avoid. Had Russia remained a peaceful democratic country then it wouldn't have mattered anyway. Only idiots wouldn't have taken measures to contain Russia after it became clear Putin was not interested in democracy. Idiots like Trump, who encouraged Putin to take this step.

We're friends with Ukraine for the same reason we are friends with Israel and Kosovo, also countries that arguably wouldn't exist without our support. They're our friends because they reached out to us and asked for help, and their friendship is useful to us in holding off other country's imperialist tendencies (which is why we support Ukraine but not Chechnya - they didn't ask for our help). We didn't invade them, they chose to ally with us. If anybody attacks them we respond. Is it imperialism? Maybe. Were we right to do it? Do the ends justify the means? I don't know. If we're wrong about how much more evil everyone else's imperialism is than ours than maybe yes. But in this case Putin proved us right.

[Zonkerbl]

Full disclosure I'm a quarter Ukrainian, my great grandmother came over here after the pogroms in 1905. It wasn't a sovereign country then of course, it was still "the" Ukraine ("the border region") instead of Ukraine.

I don't have any connections or relatives there, the jewish village I came from was burned to the ground, as far as I know.

[closg00]

Fun Fact: Donald Trump was impeached for withholding $400,000 in military aid to Ukraine, he attempted to blackmail Ukraine into making-up false things about Biden that he would then use in his campaign. Donald Trump praised Putin's invasion of Ukraine, Donald Trump is a POS.

[Pointgod]

Ukraine has a right to exist because they formed a sovereign nation after the breakup of the Soviet Union and we promised to protect them in exchange for being a barrier to Russian expansionism, if Russia ever decided to go that route, and they did, so we were right to do it. All the stupid arguments about it being our fault were disproven when Russia launched the attack that we made friends with Ukraine to try to avoid. Had Russia remained a peaceful democratic country then it wouldn't have mattered anyway. Only idiots wouldn't have taken measures to contain Russia after it became clear Putin was not interested in democracy. Idiots like Trump, who encouraged Putin to take this step.

We're friends with Ukraine for the same reason we are friends with Israel and Kosovo, also countries that arguably wouldn't exist without our support. They're our friends because they reached out to us and asked for help, and their friendship is useful to us in holding off other country's imperialist tendencies (which is why we support Ukraine but not Chechnya - they didn't ask for our help). We didn't invade them, they chose to ally with us. If anybody attacks them we respond. Is it imperialism? Maybe. Were we right to do it? Do the ends justify the means? I don't know. If we're wrong about how much more evil everyone else's imperialism is than ours than maybe yes. But in this case Putin proved us right.

Well said. If you think about it from a game theory perspective, probably the only thing that protects Russia from invading some of its neighbors is NATO! This is a prime example why. Russia knows that NATO doesn’t want to send actual troops and doesn’t want a conflict with Russia, which is why he’s invading Ukraine before they get a chance to join NATO.

[Chocolate City Jordanaire]

Fun Fact: Donald Trump was impeached for withholding $400,000 in military aid to Ukraine, he attempted to blackmail Ukraine into making-up false things about Biden that he would then use in his campaign. Donald Trump praised Putin's invasion of Ukraine, Donald Trump is a POS.

Antichrist and this is the start of ww3 perhaps

[closg00]

Fun Fact: Donald Trump was impeached for withholding $400,000 in military aid to Ukraine, he attempted to blackmail Ukraine into making-up false things about Biden that he would then use in his campaign. Donald Trump praised Putin's invasion of Ukraine, Donald Trump is a POS.

Antichrist and this is the start of ww3 perhaps

This is how WW's begin, Putin will not stop with Ukraine either, he wants the entire former empire back