OT: Russia-Ukraine War

[2010]

Why are you switching topic on me?

I never said that we were great guys. The U.S. has committed many atrocities. What does this have to do with Putin starting a war?

Look at the part of your post I bolded. I'm just commenting on the idea that you can't oppress people and succeed in the long run. Everyone succeeding is oppressing. That's how the world has been since the start of colonialism unfortunately.

Thats how the world has been since the start of the world. You are keying in on colonialism because it was the start of race as a systemic exploitative tool. But Rome wasnt built without oppression, nor was Kush.

But there is a clear difference between the soft oppression of economic exploitation and the hard oppression of military invasion.

Spoiler:

As if one has never led to the other. These people man…

[nedleeds]

Remind me again of who the most successful countries in the world are? This is a nonsense opinion. Just world fallacy if I've ever seen it. When it comes to oppression you don't get worse than NATO.

We bombed Somalia Wednesday and Israel bombed Damascus yesterday. Let's not do this...

Why are you switching topic on me?

I never said that we were great guys. The U.S. has committed many atrocities. What does this have to do with Putin starting a war?

Look at the part of your post I bolded. I'm just commenting on the idea that you can't oppress people and succeed in the long run. Everyone succeeding is oppressing. That's how the world has been since the start of colonialism unfortunately.

What did the Mongols do?

[E-Balla]

Why are you switching topic on me?

I never said that we were great guys. The U.S. has committed many atrocities. What does this have to do with Putin starting a war?

Look at the part of your post I bolded. I'm just commenting on the idea that you can't oppress people and succeed in the long run. Everyone succeeding is oppressing. That's how the world has been since the start of colonialism unfortunately.

What did the Mongols do?

The Mongols weren't the only world power at the time and they didn't succeed long term if the standard of succeeding long term is based on modern versions of that concept. The European powers have lasted twice as long as the Mongolian empire.

[semjazy]

It matters because I don't want my country and people in my country funding and supporting Neo-Nazis. You think we would've learned not to fund far right political uprisings in order to feed the Cold War but apparently we haven't.

And South Korea doesn't cozy up to literal Neo-Nazis. We're **** America who are we to call anyone out over racism? Especially SK?

The idea that the Ukrainian government is controlled by neo-Nazis or is supporting them is a lie created by the Russians. Do Ukrainians have a problem with racism? Just like every Slavic or even more broadly European country. But to think that their problem is bigger than that of others is a lie. And I say this as a Pole whose part of the family died at the hands of the UPA in Volhynia in '44. This is just an impression created by the Russians to provide casus belli.

It is 100% not a lie. You can see with your own eyes they support neo-nazis. Imperialist propaganda really got you doubting your own eyes now?

The rise of neo-nazis in the Ukraine has been well documented over the last 8-9 years. By most left wing media outlets.

But I trust my own eyes. I have been to several cities in Ukraine, and I have not noticed any neo-Nazi tendencies in any of them. There are over a million Ukrainians in Poland, I have met many of them at university or at work. None of them support Nazism. As for Azov, this is only one battalion that has been pacified by the state, besides this in every army there will be individuals that adhere to this ideology. US is no exception. Russia either, with Dmitry Utkin and his Wagner Group militias. In the 2019 elections, the far-right coalition was not even close to entering parliament, Again, the problem with far right in Ukraine is not more common than in eastern Germany, Hungary or Slovakia.

Right now ordinary Ukrainians are signing up as volunteers to fight for their homeland against country that brazenly invaides them, is invoking fake grievances, is lying incessantly and tries to deny them right to choose its own destiny. Russia is taking this from Nazi playbook.

As for imperial propaganda, I was lucky to be born in a country that took advantage of the short time in which Russia was in complete chaos, ruled by a drunk who did not grasp reality. And thanks to the efforts of all political parties, from liberals of Solidarity to socialists from the former communist party who regained power in '93, we were able to enter Western structures such as the EU and NATO. If it were not for this, in the 90s we would have the same situation in Poland, which now affects the Ukraine

[HarthorneWingo]

The Klischko Bros are in the fight

Watch on YouTube

[Clyde_Style]

I predict this invasion will eventually be bad news for the American Republican Party due to so much of their past funding having come from Russia money funnels routed through American SuperPACS.

Some of those issues were already under the microscope partly due to the NY State probe into the NRA which very clearly was taking on dirty money from the Kremlin to fund political campaigns.

There’s more to say about that, but I’ll limit it to the implications from the invasion of the Ukraine. Because Putin actively launders so much money internationally, the actions being enacted now to disenfranchise the use of SWIFT routing for him and his oligarchs will now provoke more conversations and potential investigations into how money flows out of Russia into foreign accounts.

The GOP has taken dirty Kremlin money for years now which is why you see so much pro-Russian BS coming out of their mouths. The probes into Trump are accelerating and this disruption of the Russian banking system may shine fresh light on these connections as it makes perfect sense now for the DOJ to go after dirty Russian funding after they cut them off at the knees in the banking system.

While this may be true, I see this taking YEARS to uncover, because of the massive resistance of rich, influential beneficiaries in the west who will use every lever and contact they have to slow it down.

You’re right. I’m not even sure anything would come of it, but the point is that the gloves are off and IF the current DOJ decides to follow the money trail they would have a very legitimate pretext to do so, now more than ever

Two things to consider:

1) Tish James, as I said, probably already has massive data sets on dirty money. She may not be beholden to Capitol Hill and could push some of these issues to a head because of the convergence of her two investigations into the NRA and the Trump Organization. There is going to be some overlap there. She could force the issue.

2) Deutsche Bank. Not only did they funnel Russian money to Americans, including Trump, but the thing to watch is if Germany decides to fulfill their energy needs without Russia. That would bring some sticker shock, but it is now a possibility. If so, then I suspect there will be even less of a wall of silence around Deutschebank

[Capn'O]

China has weighed in:

Read on Twitter

Measured... and there's certainly some doublespeak in there... but they don't seem thrilled about the invasion.

[nedleeds]

Look at the part of your post I bolded. I'm just commenting on the idea that you can't oppress people and succeed in the long run. Everyone succeeding is oppressing. That's how the world has been since the start of colonialism unfortunately.

What did the Mongols do?

The Mongols weren't the only world power at the time and they didn't succeed long term if the standard of succeeding long term is based on modern versions of that concept. The European powers have lasted twice as long as the Mongolian empire.

It was roughly 200 years or so depending on the conqueree, if you consider Persia or India it was pretty long. And by land mass it's still considered the largest empire. They had death quotas. My broader point is that colonialism didn't start oppression, if oppression is the widespread use of power to cause misery, death and overall loss of broader human rights. The Arabs utterly annihilated India for 600+ years and killed hundred of millions of Hindis. The Mohammedan conquest of India is probably the bloodiest story in history actually if you are just looking for body count. I'm just cherry picking here, but different groups have slaughtered, oppressed, conquered and "colonized" each other throughout human history.

Translation: If you can't blame Caucasian people it wasn't a real empire of oppression.

[HarthorneWingo]

I said earlier in this thread that China was not happy about this … hence, my post about Putin being a “lone wolf”. Now Putin’s saying that he’s willing to talk after a meeting with Xi.

https://www.nytimes.com/2022/02/25/world/asia/china-russia-ukraine-sovereignty.html

‘Abrupt Changes’: China Caught in a Bind Over Russia’s Invasion of Ukraine

China has presented itself as a defender of sovereign independence. But its reluctance to denounce Russia’s aggression forces it into an awkward position.

As Russian troops have poured into Ukraine, officials in Beijing have fumed at any suggestion that they are betraying a core principle of Chinese foreign policy — that sovereignty is sacrosanct — in order to shield Moscow.

They will not even call it an invasion. “Russia’s operation” is one preferred description. The “current situation” is another. And China’s leader, Xi Jinping, says his position on the crisis is perfectly coherent.

“The abrupt changes in the eastern regions of Ukraine have been drawing the close attention of the international community,” Mr. Xi told his Russian counterpart, Vladimir V. Putin, in a call on Friday, according to an official Chinese summary.

“China’s fundamental stance has been consistent in respecting the sovereignty and territorial integrity of all countries, and abiding by the mission and principles of the United Nations Charter,” Mr. Xi said.
Outside the echo chamber of Chinese official media, however, there seems little doubt that Russia’s war has put its partner Beijing in a severe bind, including over where it stands on countries’ sovereign rights.

China may have played a role Friday in inducing Russia to look more accommodating, even as Russian forces advanced into Kyiv.

After Mr. Putin’s phone call with Mr. Xi, in which the Chinese leader called for talks, the Russian president signaled he was open to the idea, reversing his own foreign minister’s statement made just hours earlier. The Kremlin framed Mr. Putin’s position as a response to Ukraine’s president, Volodymyr Zelensky, that he was ready to discuss “neutral status” for Ukraine.

-more-

[Clyde_Style]

Who on the left and what were they saying?

It was done here by some posters. I won’t drag anyone now since I hope they have learned something from their experiences.

Oh true. I ask because there were two critiques across leftist online media. One was genuine but wrong and one that comes from a group of grifters that are thinly veiled righties, but who advertise as lefties. So I wanted to make sure you weren't running into this new grifty left that has gotten a big push from the Hill and some other sources (people like Kim Iversen, Jimmy Dore, etc.). Those cats make the left look bad while trying to recruit people to never vote for Dems...It's frustrating because good lefties have been trying to out those heads for years.

TYT types like Ana Kasparian and Hasan Piker were skeptical that Putin would do something as extreme as invade without provocation. They were wrong, but the skepticism was pretty reasonable and they apologized for getting it wrong upon Russia invading.

I would trust your read on the current situation, because I do not consume political podcasts and youtube channels.

That said, whenever I browse Twitter (it’s own animal I know) I see how this manifests and many of the same behaviors I saw in 2016 still occur now.

[HarthorneWingo]

It was done here by some posters. I won’t drag anyone now since I hope they have learned something from their experiences.

Oh true. I ask because there were two critiques across leftist online media. One was genuine but wrong and one that comes from a group of grifters that are thinly veiled righties, but who advertise as lefties. So I wanted to make sure you weren't running into this new grifty left that has gotten a big push from the Hill and some other sources (people like Kim Iversen, Jimmy Dore, etc.). Those cats make the left look bad while trying to recruit people to never vote for Dems...It's frustrating because good lefties have been trying to out those heads for years.

TYT types like Ana Kasparian and Hasan Piker were skeptical that Putin would do something as extreme as invade without provocation. They were wrong, but the skepticism was pretty reasonable and they apologized for getting it wrong upon Russia invading.

I would trust your read on the current situation, because I do not consume political podcasts and youtube channels.

That said, whenever I browse Twitter (it’s own animal I know) I see how this manifests and many of the same behaviors I saw in 2016 still occur now.

I don’t know that anyone should draw any conclusions about anything from surfing the Twitterverse.

[dakomish23]

I said earlier in this thread that China was not happy about this … hence, my post about Putin being a “lone wolf”. Now Putin’s saying that he’s willing to talk after a meeting with Xi.

https://www.nytimes.com/2022/02/25/world/asia/china-russia-ukraine-sovereignty.html

‘Abrupt Changes’: China Caught in a Bind Over Russia’s Invasion of Ukraine

China has presented itself as a defender of sovereign independence. But its reluctance to denounce Russia’s aggression forces it into an awkward position.

As Russian troops have poured into Ukraine, officials in Beijing have fumed at any suggestion that they are betraying a core principle of Chinese foreign policy — that sovereignty is sacrosanct — in order to shield Moscow.

They will not even call it an invasion. “Russia’s operation” is one preferred description. The “current situation” is another. And China’s leader, Xi Jinping, says his position on the crisis is perfectly coherent.

“The abrupt changes in the eastern regions of Ukraine have been drawing the close attention of the international community,” Mr. Xi told his Russian counterpart, Vladimir V. Putin, in a call on Friday, according to an official Chinese summary.

“China’s fundamental stance has been consistent in respecting the sovereignty and territorial integrity of all countries, and abiding by the mission and principles of the United Nations Charter,” Mr. Xi said.
Outside the echo chamber of Chinese official media, however, there seems little doubt that Russia’s war has put its partner Beijing in a severe bind, including over where it stands on countries’ sovereign rights.

China may have played a role Friday in inducing Russia to look more accommodating, even as Russian forces advanced into Kyiv.

After Mr. Putin’s phone call with Mr. Xi, in which the Chinese leader called for talks, the Russian president signaled he was open to the idea, reversing his own foreign minister’s statement made just hours earlier. The Kremlin framed Mr. Putin’s position as a response to Ukraine’s president, Volodymyr Zelensky, that he was ready to discuss “neutral status” for Ukraine.

-more-

I spend less time on this board than in the past b/c I spend so much time arguing with right wing twitter. Something they kept pushing the last couple of days is that China has joined Russia and we will be weak.

Do you think they're going to correct these terrible takes? OFC not.

[HarthorneWingo]

I said earlier in this thread that China was not happy about this … hence, my post about Putin being a “lone wolf”. Now Putin’s saying that he’s willing to talk after a meeting with Xi.

https://www.nytimes.com/2022/02/25/world/asia/china-russia-ukraine-sovereignty.html

‘Abrupt Changes’: China Caught in a Bind Over Russia’s Invasion of Ukraine

China has presented itself as a defender of sovereign independence. But its reluctance to denounce Russia’s aggression forces it into an awkward position.

As Russian troops have poured into Ukraine, officials in Beijing have fumed at any suggestion that they are betraying a core principle of Chinese foreign policy — that sovereignty is sacrosanct — in order to shield Moscow.

They will not even call it an invasion. “Russia’s operation” is one preferred description. The “current situation” is another. And China’s leader, Xi Jinping, says his position on the crisis is perfectly coherent.

“The abrupt changes in the eastern regions of Ukraine have been drawing the close attention of the international community,” Mr. Xi told his Russian counterpart, Vladimir V. Putin, in a call on Friday, according to an official Chinese summary.

“China’s fundamental stance has been consistent in respecting the sovereignty and territorial integrity of all countries, and abiding by the mission and principles of the United Nations Charter,” Mr. Xi said.
Outside the echo chamber of Chinese official media, however, there seems little doubt that Russia’s war has put its partner Beijing in a severe bind, including over where it stands on countries’ sovereign rights.

China may have played a role Friday in inducing Russia to look more accommodating, even as Russian forces advanced into Kyiv.

After Mr. Putin’s phone call with Mr. Xi, in which the Chinese leader called for talks, the Russian president signaled he was open to the idea, reversing his own foreign minister’s statement made just hours earlier. The Kremlin framed Mr. Putin’s position as a response to Ukraine’s president, Volodymyr Zelensky, that he was ready to discuss “neutral status” for Ukraine.

-more-

I spend less time on this board than in the past b/c I spend so much time arguing with right wing twitter. Something they kept pushing the last couple of days is that China has joined Russia and we will be weak.

Do you think they're going to correct these terrible takes? OFC not.

Many people aren’t well versed in geo-politics, myself included. Right wingers come from a fearful POV which is why they are war mongers.

Some things just make sense.There’s literally nothing in this for China. In fact, it’s a distraction to them and a destabilizer in the region.

[E-Balla]

What did the Mongols do?

The Mongols weren't the only world power at the time and they didn't succeed long term if the standard of succeeding long term is based on modern versions of that concept. The European powers have lasted twice as long as the Mongolian empire.

It was roughly 200 years or so depending on the conqueree, if you consider Persia or India it was pretty long. And by land mass it's still considered the largest empire. They had death quotas. My broader point is that colonialism didn't start oppression, if oppression is the widespread use of power to cause misery, death and overall loss of broader human rights. The Arabs utterly annihilated India for 600+ years and killed hundred of millions of Hindis. The Mohammedan conquest of India is probably the bloodiest story in history actually if you are just looking for body count. I'm just cherry picking here, but different groups have slaughtered, oppressed, conquered and "colonized" each other throughout human history.

Translation: If you can't blame Caucasian people it wasn't a real empire of oppression.

Lmao. Y'all swear someone is out to get you. Mongols weren't even the best empire of their time (Mali was more wealthy). Europeans been #1 for centuries.

[HarthorneWingo]

The Mongols weren't the only world power at the time and they didn't succeed long term if the standard of succeeding long term is based on modern versions of that concept. The European powers have lasted twice as long as the Mongolian empire.

It was roughly 200 years or so depending on the conqueree, if you consider Persia or India it was pretty long. And by land mass it's still considered the largest empire. They had death quotas. My broader point is that colonialism didn't start oppression, if oppression is the widespread use of power to cause misery, death and overall loss of broader human rights. The Arabs utterly annihilated India for 600+ years and killed hundred of millions of Hindis. The Mohammedan conquest of India is probably the bloodiest story in history actually if you are just looking for body count. I'm just cherry picking here, but different groups have slaughtered, oppressed, conquered and "colonized" each other throughout human history.

Translation: If you can't blame Caucasian people it wasn't a real empire of oppression.

Lmao. Y'all swear someone is out to get you. Mongols weren't even the best empire of their time (Mali was more wealthy). Europeans been #1 for centuries.

The Mongolian Stomper is one man I would never mess with. Just saying’ I mean, look at this Mongol.

[Clyde_Style]

Oh true. I ask because there were two critiques across leftist online media. One was genuine but wrong and one that comes from a group of grifters that are thinly veiled righties, but who advertise as lefties. So I wanted to make sure you weren't running into this new grifty left that has gotten a big push from the Hill and some other sources (people like Kim Iversen, Jimmy Dore, etc.). Those cats make the left look bad while trying to recruit people to never vote for Dems...It's frustrating because good lefties have been trying to out those heads for years.

TYT types like Ana Kasparian and Hasan Piker were skeptical that Putin would do something as extreme as invade without provocation. They were wrong, but the skepticism was pretty reasonable and they apologized for getting it wrong upon Russia invading.

I would trust your read on the current situation, because I do not consume political podcasts and youtube channels.

That said, whenever I browse Twitter (it’s own animal I know) I see how this manifests and many of the same behaviors I saw in 2016 still occur now.

I don’t know that anyone should draw any conclusions about anything from surfing the Twitterverse.

Probably not, but mostly I think this was more about some of the memes being tossed around in this thread that are of a questionable nature and probably sourced from the disinfo networks to seed social media. When it makes it to threads like this you could say their objective was achieved.

[Zenzibar]

Did you see the video of Putin grilling one of his spies who was clearly uncomfortable telling Putin what he wasn’t happy with. The spy stammered and stumbled until he agreed with Putin. It was incredible to watch. I’m sure it’s online.

Albanians like “viral” men. Do Albanians still out a gun under the pillow of newborn males? It used to be ceremonial

The dude is shook

Watch on YouTube

That’s the one! Oh yeah, very shook.

I kinda enjoy that piece of humor in this crazy time. He told buddy ok finish and now have a seat.

[j4remi]

I would trust your read on the current situation, because I do not consume political podcasts and youtube channels.

That said, whenever I browse Twitter (it’s own animal I know) I see how this manifests and many of the same behaviors I saw in 2016 still occur now.

I don’t know that anyone should draw any conclusions about anything from surfing the Twitterverse.

Probably not, but mostly I think this was more about some of the memes being tossed around in this thread that are of a questionable nature and probably sourced from the disinfo networks to seed social media. When it makes it to threads like this you could say their objective was achieved.

I'm typically in and out of these political topics around here, so I miss some of the discussions and memes. But I'd co-sign Wingo on twitter. Everything on twitter goes to extremes but a big chunk of that is trolling and $**tposting. I've seen plenty of lefties critical of NATO tactics, but that sometimes gets conflated with the straight up Putin apologia that's appearing on major rightwing platforms. There are grifty types doing that stuff, so I kinda get why people get the wrong idea. Especially on twitter.

[Clyde_Style]

I don’t know that anyone should draw any conclusions about anything from surfing the Twitterverse.

Probably not, but mostly I think this was more about some of the memes being tossed around in this thread that are of a questionable nature and probably sourced from the disinfo networks to seed social media. When it makes it to threads like this you could say their objective was achieved.

I'm typically in and out of these political topics around here, so I miss some of the discussions and memes. But I'd co-sign Wingo on twitter. Everything on twitter goes to extremes but a big chunk of that is trolling and $**tposting. I've seen plenty of lefties critical of NATO tactics, but that sometimes gets conflated with the straight up Putin apologia that's appearing on major rightwing platforms. There are grifty types doing that stuff, so I kinda get why people get the wrong idea. Especially on twitter.

The sooner the general public cottons to the truth that our political system was infiltrated by Russian operations, including the ideas they so willingly share on social media, the better. That said, the major culprits are on the right. Fox and the GOP are not even hiding their predisposition. I know it may be obvious to us what Tucker Carlson does, but unfortunately a quarter of our population is clueless and many of them drink that slop up and start to parrot it.

I’m not a flag waving kind of guy and I’m pretty sick of my own country, but I still consider what the right is doing to be traitorous

[HarthorneWingo]

The dude is shook

Watch on YouTube

That’s the one! Oh yeah, very shook.

I kinda enjoy that piece of humor in this crazy time. He told buddy ok finish and now have a seat.

Definitely goes onto the moon box or whatever that thing is called where we leave copies all of our (the human race) stupid shyt for future life forms on earth or from other galaxies. I think they’ll appreciate the absurdity of the moment.