Game 63: Pistons (15-47) @ Wizards (34-27) Mar. 3 7:30 PM EST

[vege]

We should trade Grant for a bag of doritos, he doesn't fit with Cade, and he make Bey worse. He is a cancer and a black hole on offense. We should trade him for a bunch of meh picks or for the next Stanley Johnson, Brandon Knight, Greg Monroe, Killian Hayes etc.

Last 6 games with all 3 health and playing together.

Grant - 21.5PPG 46%FG 2.6RPG 2.5APG
Bey - 17.6PPG 47.5%FG 7RPG 3.16APG
Cade - 20.5PPG 43.2%FG 7.8RPG 5.1APG

Add 2 above average starters, with desirable skill sets, to that and we're a playoff team.

[keepitrealhomes]

kill just need to keep being aggressive. I’m a homer, sure, but this dude is taking all the right shots for his skill set. look at bey in the first half as opposed to now. It’ll happen. Patience, young grass smokers.

[zeebneeb]

Very fun game tonight. Was busy so I missed the game thread.

Imagine if the Pistons played like they do against the Raptors, every game.

The amount of respect Cade gets from opposing teams defenses is pretty amazing, and consistent. Teams truly respect his playmaking ability. Awesome feeling as a Piston fan to have a rookie demanding so much gameplanning.

Great win!

[Pharaoh]

Very fun game tonight. Was busy so I missed the game thread.

Imagine if the Pistons played like they do against the Raptors, every game.

The amount of respect Cade gets from opposing teams defenses is pretty amazing, and consistent. Teams truly respect his playmaking ability. Awesome feeling as a Piston fan to have a rookie demanding so much gameplanning.

Great win!

Now imagine we add a escape valve like Jabari Smith Jr...

And Bey and Grant work on their driving games...

That's a 4some to be feared in a year or 2!

Have a little faith my most positive friend. I know it's been hard but just a little further brother, soon, very soon

Sent from my SM-G781B using RealGM Forums mobile app

[Manocad]

He'll get those calls eventually. It will be easier when he starts throwing his body into defenders instead of trying to avoid the contact. It says something though that in the 2nd half he basically had 3 guys converging on him at all times. He'll also get better at reading those situations and finding the open man.

I struggle with the logic that Cade trying to draw contact in order to get foul calls would be an improvement to his game. Obviously it's only natural that any focus put on trying to draw contact will detract from focus on making the shot, so the expectation there would be that he shoots more free throws but misses more shots. Certainly I can see how it's an improvement if he's avoiding contact and in doing so he's throwing himself off so much that he's missing inside shots but that doesn't appear to be the case. For the most part he's pretty dependable when he gets an inside shot up. I made this argument before--if he's scoring 20+ a game on 45+% and shooting minimal free throws, does it really matter that he's shooting minimal free throws? The goal is obviously to score points in the most efficient manner possible so it would seem the best bang for the buck is to focus on making the shot rather than hoping to get a foul call then hoping to make two free throws.

Not to mention that while for the most part I believe the refs are trying to do a good job, there's no way around inherent and maybe even subconscious ref biases. Take Grant for example; he still gets called for a charge, will defend on the other end against a driving player, and get called for a blocking foul on a play that's a near carbon copy of the charge he got called for moments earlier but role reversed. And I think that's due in part to the refs knowing--hell, we ALL KNOW--that Grant IS willing to throw himself into the teeth of the defense, draw contact and try to make something happen (although Grant does average 5.6 FTA's/game, but his 41.9 FG% is lower than it has been in recent years). So maybe that's not helping him. I think it's a dynamic that develops not only over time but obviously is certainly far more under the refs' control than the player's. And who knows--maybe trying to draw contact could backfire on Cade; he misses the shot and in the ref's head it plays out that he's just a stupid rookie trying to get bailed out with a foul call, and nothing gets called.

[mattao313]

He'll get those calls eventually. It will be easier when he starts throwing his body into defenders instead of trying to avoid the contact. It says something though that in the 2nd half he basically had 3 guys converging on him at all times. He'll also get better at reading those situations and finding the open man.

I struggle with the logic that Cade trying to draw contact in order to get foul calls would be an improvement to his game. Obviously it's only natural that any focus put on trying to draw contact will detract from focus on making the shot, so the expectation there would be that he shoots more free throws but misses more shots. Certainly I can see how it's an improvement if he's avoiding contact and in doing so he's throwing himself off so much that he's missing inside shots but that doesn't appear to be the case. For the most part he's pretty dependable when he gets an inside shot up. I made this argument before--if he's scoring 20+ a game on 45+% and shooting minimal free throws, does it really matter that he's shooting minimal free throws? The goal is obviously to score points in the most efficient manner possible so it would seem the best bang for the buck is to focus on making the shot rather than hoping to get a foul call then hoping to make two free throws.

Not to mention that while for the most part I believe the refs are trying to do a good job, there's no way around inherent and maybe even subconscious ref biases. Take Grant for example; he still gets called for a charge, will defend on the other end against a driving player, and get called for a blocking foul on a play that's a near carbon copy of the charge he got called for moments earlier but role reversed. And I think that's due in part to the refs knowing--hell, we ALL KNOW--that Grant IS willing to throw himself into the teeth of the defense, draw contact and try to make something happen (although Grant does average 5.6 FTA's/game, but his 41.9 FG% is lower than it has been in recent years). So maybe that's not helping him. I think it's a dynamic that develops not only over time but obviously is certainly far more under the refs' control than the player's. And who knows--maybe trying to draw contact could backfire on Cade; he misses the shot and in the ref's head it plays out that he's just a stupid rookie trying to get bailed out with a foul call, and nothing gets called.

It really depends on what shots he's taking. Grant is shooting 41% from the floor but still has a 54ts which is not good, but if he didn't shoot as much fts he would be much less efficient. Cade could shoot 45% from the field and still be inefficient. For example he did it this game but made 44% of his 3s so it saved his efficiency which was 55ts (I think that's below league avg). But last game he shot 50% from the field but only had a 51ts.

So basically no he doesn't have to shoot fts but he'd have to be much more efficient either shooting and making more 3s or shooting a much higher percentage of 2pt shots. Or draw contact and make a lot of fts.

Sent from my 5087Z using RealGM mobile app

[DetroitSho]

We should trade Grant for a bag of doritos, he doesn't fit with Cade, and he make Bey worse. He is a cancer and a black hole on offense. We should trade him for a bunch of meh picks or for the next Stanley Johnson, Brandon Knight, Greg Monroe, Killian Hayes etc.

Last 6 games with all 3 health and playing together.

Grant - 21.5PPG 46%FG 2.6RPG 2.5APG
Bey - 17.6PPG 47.5%FG 7RPG 3.16APG
Cade - 20.5PPG 43.2%FG 7.8RPG 5.1APG

Add 2 above average starters, with desirable skill sets, to that and we're a playoff team.

One thing I do find odd is that there are people that are willing to be patient and for the team to still be bad for another couple years and they preach patience, which is fine. Some of those same individuals couldn't be patient enough to give the trio more than a game to figure things out before Grant was vilified as the culprit for everybody else's struggles. That is the contradiction of all contradictions.

As of right now the way Grant is playing and what he offers couldn't be any more perfect than what you'd want out there with Cade, offensively and defensively.

Sent from my SM-N975U using RealGM mobile app

[Manocad]

He'll get those calls eventually. It will be easier when he starts throwing his body into defenders instead of trying to avoid the contact. It says something though that in the 2nd half he basically had 3 guys converging on him at all times. He'll also get better at reading those situations and finding the open man.

I struggle with the logic that Cade trying to draw contact in order to get foul calls would be an improvement to his game. Obviously it's only natural that any focus put on trying to draw contact will detract from focus on making the shot, so the expectation there would be that he shoots more free throws but misses more shots. Certainly I can see how it's an improvement if he's avoiding contact and in doing so he's throwing himself off so much that he's missing inside shots but that doesn't appear to be the case. For the most part he's pretty dependable when he gets an inside shot up. I made this argument before--if he's scoring 20+ a game on 45+% and shooting minimal free throws, does it really matter that he's shooting minimal free throws? The goal is obviously to score points in the most efficient manner possible so it would seem the best bang for the buck is to focus on making the shot rather than hoping to get a foul call then hoping to make two free throws.

Not to mention that while for the most part I believe the refs are trying to do a good job, there's no way around inherent and maybe even subconscious ref biases. Take Grant for example; he still gets called for a charge, will defend on the other end against a driving player, and get called for a blocking foul on a play that's a near carbon copy of the charge he got called for moments earlier but role reversed. And I think that's due in part to the refs knowing--hell, we ALL KNOW--that Grant IS willing to throw himself into the teeth of the defense, draw contact and try to make something happen (although Grant does average 5.6 FTA's/game, but his 41.9 FG% is lower than it has been in recent years). So maybe that's not helping him. I think it's a dynamic that develops not only over time but obviously is certainly far more under the refs' control than the player's. And who knows--maybe trying to draw contact could backfire on Cade; he misses the shot and in the ref's head it plays out that he's just a stupid rookie trying to get bailed out with a foul call, and nothing gets called.

It really depends on what shots he's taking. Grant is shooting 41% from the floor but still has a 54ts which is not good, but if he didn't shoot as much fts he would be much less efficient. Cade could shoot 45% from the field and still be inefficient. For example he did it this game but made 44% of his 3s so it saved his efficiency which was 55ts (I think that's below league avg). But last game he shot 50% from the field but only had a 51ts.

So basically no he doesn't have to shoot fts but he'd have to be much more efficient either shooting and making more 3s or shooting a much higher percentage of 2pt shots. Or draw contact and make a lot of fts.

Sent from my 5087Z using RealGM mobile app

You just supported my point by identifying that shooting more free throws hasn't helped Grant's efficiency in the sense that it becomes good, only that it would be worse without doing so. And again, Cade can't MAKE officials call fouls. My point remains--if a a player is making his shots at a good rate and scoring points, the free throws don't mean much in and of themselves IMO.

[mattao313]

I struggle with the logic that Cade trying to draw contact in order to get foul calls would be an improvement to his game. Obviously it's only natural that any focus put on trying to draw contact will detract from focus on making the shot, so the expectation there would be that he shoots more free throws but misses more shots. Certainly I can see how it's an improvement if he's avoiding contact and in doing so he's throwing himself off so much that he's missing inside shots but that doesn't appear to be the case. For the most part he's pretty dependable when he gets an inside shot up. I made this argument before--if he's scoring 20+ a game on 45+% and shooting minimal free throws, does it really matter that he's shooting minimal free throws? The goal is obviously to score points in the most efficient manner possible so it would seem the best bang for the buck is to focus on making the shot rather than hoping to get a foul call then hoping to make two free throws.

Not to mention that while for the most part I believe the refs are trying to do a good job, there's no way around inherent and maybe even subconscious ref biases. Take Grant for example; he still gets called for a charge, will defend on the other end against a driving player, and get called for a blocking foul on a play that's a near carbon copy of the charge he got called for moments earlier but role reversed. And I think that's due in part to the refs knowing--hell, we ALL KNOW--that Grant IS willing to throw himself into the teeth of the defense, draw contact and try to make something happen (although Grant does average 5.6 FTA's/game, but his 41.9 FG% is lower than it has been in recent years). So maybe that's not helping him. I think it's a dynamic that develops not only over time but obviously is certainly far more under the refs' control than the player's. And who knows--maybe trying to draw contact could backfire on Cade; he misses the shot and in the ref's head it plays out that he's just a stupid rookie trying to get bailed out with a foul call, and nothing gets called.

It really depends on what shots he's taking. Grant is shooting 41% from the floor but still has a 54ts which is not good, but if he didn't shoot as much fts he would be much less efficient. Cade could shoot 45% from the field and still be inefficient. For example he did it this game but made 44% of his 3s so it saved his efficiency which was 55ts (I think that's below league avg). But last game he shot 50% from the field but only had a 51ts.

So basically no he doesn't have to shoot fts but he'd have to be much more efficient either shooting and making more 3s or shooting a much higher percentage of 2pt shots. Or draw contact and make a lot of fts.

Sent from my 5087Z using RealGM mobile app

You just supported my point by identifying that shooting more free throws hasn't helped Grant's efficiency in the sense that it becomes good, only that it would be worse without doing so. And again, Cade can't MAKE officials call fouls. My point remains--if a a player is making his shots at a good rate and scoring points, the free throws don't mean much in and of themselves IMO.

Not really shooting ft are helping grant he just isn't shooting good overall. Cade playing through contact would help him instead of avoiding it that's the point.

If grant didn't shoot fts he'd be trash on offense.

Sent from my 5087Z using RealGM mobile app

[flow]

.

Raptors, not Wizards.

[Liqourish]

The amount of respect Cade gets from opposing teams defenses is pretty amazing, and consistent.

Which is offset by the refs disrespect of Cade.

[Sort]

Nobody could fix the title thread?

Anyway, if it's not said, one of the reasons Pistons don't play as well against other teams as they do the Raptors still has a lot to do with the Raptors. They really need a quick one. Van Fleet can play combo guard. Siakam and Barnes as your main threat to break you down the other team's defense leads to another home loss when your team is giving full effort. They obviously can both do it, but it's asking too much.

One thing for Bey is that fierce competitiveness - right there with Beef Stew. Barnes is young and nearly out of control in that game. He's riding that line the old Pacers had, and it's so easy to go off the rails. I didn't quite trust it, but what a solid player already in this league. I see more upside for Mobley and Cade, but give Barnes credit: he's maximizing what he has already. No team wouldn't want Barnes in their starting lineup.

I don't know if Bey will ever average more than 20 on a winning team, but I think he will certainly be one of the main engines on a winning team. Fun, fun player to cheer for. Now if he can keep impacting the game even when his offense isn't developing or impacting the game.

[bstein14]

Free Throw Attempts are the 2nd most efficient shot in basketball.... after the corner three.

Here's a side by side comparison.

Grant 19.3 PPG makes 6.4/15.2 FGAs and 4.7/5.6 FTAs is much more efficient scoring than Cade. 54.6 TS% for Grant (close to league average is around 55%)
Cade 16.2 PPG makes 6.2/15.4 FGAs and 1.9/2.3 FTAs in much less efficient scoring than Grant. 49.3 TS% for Cade (puts him in the bottom 20 or so of players in the league that play 22+ MPG)

A 5.3% difference in TS% is a pretty big difference in the efficiency in which you score. If Cade isn't going to get to the line more, he'll likely need to score about 47% on his two point shots and 36% on his three point shots to get to a league average scoring efficiency.

Right now Cade makes 1.9 of 6.1 three-point attempts per game. (32.0%)
Right now Cade makes 4.3 of 10.1 two-point attempts per game. (42.6%)

They shoot very close and similar attempts and percentages from 2 and from 3 so you'd except them to be close to the same efficiency of scorers but the FTs make Grant considerably more efficient.

[mattao313]

Free Throw Attempts are the 2nd most efficient shot in basketball.... after the corner three.

Here's a side by side comparison.

Grant 19.3 PPG makes 6.4/15.2 FGAs and 4.7/5.6 FTAs is much more efficient scoring than Cade. 54.6 TS% for Grant (close to league average is around 55%)
Cade 16.2 PPG makes 6.2/15.4 FGAs and 1.9/2.3 FTAs in much less efficient scoring than Grant. 49.3 TS% for Cade (puts him in the bottom 20 or so of players in the league that play 22+ MPG)

A 5.3% difference in TS% is a pretty big difference in the efficiency in which you score. If Cade isn't going to get to the line more, he'll likely need to score about 47% on his two point shots and 36% on his three point shots to get to a league average scoring efficiency.

Right now Cade makes 1.9 of 6.1 three-point attempts per game. (32.0%)
Right now Cade makes 4.3 of 10.1 two-point attempts per game. (42.6%)

They shoot very close and similar attempts and percentages from 2 and from 3 so you'd except them to be close to the same efficiency of scorers but the FTs make Grant considerably more efficient.

Thanks for fleshing that out even more. Fts and 3 are very important for a scorer all the good to great ones usually are at least good at either one. If Cade can't become a volume 3pt guy with good efficiency which imo he is more likely to become. You'd hope he'd live at the line.

Sent from my 5087Z using RealGM mobile app

[Invictus88]

Free Throw Attempts are the 2nd most efficient shot in basketball.... after the corner three.

Here's a side by side comparison.

Grant 19.3 PPG makes 6.4/15.2 FGAs and 4.7/5.6 FTAs is much more efficient scoring than Cade. 54.6 TS% for Grant (close to league average is around 55%)
Cade 16.2 PPG makes 6.2/15.4 FGAs and 1.9/2.3 FTAs in much less efficient scoring than Grant. 49.3 TS% for Cade (puts him in the bottom 20 or so of players in the league that play 22+ MPG)

A 5.3% difference in TS% is a pretty big difference in the efficiency in which you score. If Cade isn't going to get to the line more, he'll likely need to score about 47% on his two point shots and 36% on his three point shots to get to a league average scoring efficiency.

Right now Cade makes 1.9 of 6.1 three-point attempts per game. (32.0%)
Right now Cade makes 4.3 of 10.1 two-point attempts per game. (42.6%)

They shoot very close and similar attempts and percentages from 2 and from 3 so you'd except them to be close to the same efficiency of scorers but the FTs make Grant considerably more efficient.

Thanks for fleshing that out even more. Fts and 3 are very important for a scorer all the good to great ones usually are at least good at either one. If Cade can't become a volume 3pt guy with good efficiency which imo he is more likely to become. You'd hope he'd live at the line.

Sent from my 5087Z using RealGM mobile app

I honestly think it's almost a certainty at this point that his ft attempts will come; especially next year.

It's clear he's becoming much more aggressive and proficient at driving and scoring; even around and over shot blockers (the latter of which was a big question mark so it'scomforting to see).

What's not there yet is the strength to endure contact. I'd say it's the biggest difference between him and Grant. Thankfully this is common for rookies and they tend to make big strides between their rookie and 2nd years. (Look how much bigger Bey, Killian, and Stewart are compared to when they were drafted).

Once officials start seeing the limbs bouncing off the muscled physique the whistles will start to come out.

What's even more promising is the fact that in some ways Cade is *better* than Grant at being crafty to overcome what I just mentioned. Next year look out.

[ComboGuardCity]

Cade is a very smart player. Trae Young raised his FTA by 83% between year 1 and 2. I have no doubt Cade can do the same.

[DetroitSho]

Free Throw Attempts are the 2nd most efficient shot in basketball.... after the corner three.

Here's a side by side comparison.

Grant 19.3 PPG makes 6.4/15.2 FGAs and 4.7/5.6 FTAs is much more efficient scoring than Cade. 54.6 TS% for Grant (close to league average is around 55%)
Cade 16.2 PPG makes 6.2/15.4 FGAs and 1.9/2.3 FTAs in much less efficient scoring than Grant. 49.3 TS% for Cade (puts him in the bottom 20 or so of players in the league that play 22+ MPG)

A 5.3% difference in TS% is a pretty big difference in the efficiency in which you score. If Cade isn't going to get to the line more, he'll likely need to score about 47% on his two point shots and 36% on his three point shots to get to a league average scoring efficiency.

Right now Cade makes 1.9 of 6.1 three-point attempts per game. (32.0%)
Right now Cade makes 4.3 of 10.1 two-point attempts per game. (42.6%)

They shoot very close and similar attempts and percentages from 2 and from 3 so you'd except them to be close to the same efficiency of scorers but the FTs make Grant considerably more efficient.

Thanks for fleshing that out even more. Fts and 3 are very important for a scorer all the good to great ones usually are at least good at either one. If Cade can't become a volume 3pt guy with good efficiency which imo he is more likely to become. You'd hope he'd live at the line.

Sent from my 5087Z using RealGM mobile app

How do you propose he live at the line?

Sent from my SM-N975U using RealGM mobile app

[mattao313]

Free Throw Attempts are the 2nd most efficient shot in basketball.... after the corner three.

Here's a side by side comparison.

Grant 19.3 PPG makes 6.4/15.2 FGAs and 4.7/5.6 FTAs is much more efficient scoring than Cade. 54.6 TS% for Grant (close to league average is around 55%)
Cade 16.2 PPG makes 6.2/15.4 FGAs and 1.9/2.3 FTAs in much less efficient scoring than Grant. 49.3 TS% for Cade (puts him in the bottom 20 or so of players in the league that play 22+ MPG)

A 5.3% difference in TS% is a pretty big difference in the efficiency in which you score. If Cade isn't going to get to the line more, he'll likely need to score about 47% on his two point shots and 36% on his three point shots to get to a league average scoring efficiency.

Right now Cade makes 1.9 of 6.1 three-point attempts per game. (32.0%)
Right now Cade makes 4.3 of 10.1 two-point attempts per game. (42.6%)

They shoot very close and similar attempts and percentages from 2 and from 3 so you'd except them to be close to the same efficiency of scorers but the FTs make Grant considerably more efficient.

Thanks for fleshing that out even more. Fts and 3 are very important for a scorer all the good to great ones usually are at least good at either one. If Cade can't become a volume 3pt guy with good efficiency which imo he is more likely to become. You'd hope he'd live at the line.

Sent from my 5087Z using RealGM mobile app

I honestly think it's almost a certainty at this point that his ft attempts will come; especially next year.

It's clear he's becoming much more aggressive and proficient at driving and scoring; even around and over shot blockers (the latter of which was a big question mark so it'scomforting to see).

What's not there yet is the strength to endure contact. I'd say it's the biggest difference between him and Grant. Thankfully this is common for rookies and they tend to make big strides between their rookie and 2nd years. (Look how much bigger Bey, Killian, and Stewart are compared to when they were drafted).

Once officials start seeing the limbs bouncing off the muscled physique the whistles will start to come out.

What's even more promising is the fact that in some ways Cade is *better* than Grant at being crafty to overcome what I just mentioned. Next year look out.

Yeah most definitely but I think Cade will probably be more of a volume 3pt guy. His shot is too good for it not to start falling. Could see him taking like 7-8 a game at 38%+.

Sent from my 5087Z using RealGM mobile app

[whitehops]

Cade is a very smart player. Trae Young raised his FTA by 83% between year 1 and 2. I have no doubt Cade can do the same.

yeah if you look at the other young players that are among league leaders in FTA now they all took a big leap within their first couple years.

that said, cade's free throw rate in college wasn't as high as others (morant, SGA, trae young, fox, etc.) so i don't think one could reasonably project him to live at the line, so to speak.

i don't think he should have any problem averaging 5-6 FTA/G, which is what most team leaders average. i would hesitate to say he'll average 7-8 a game (in the doncic/morant/young/derozan territory) and i'd say he has no shot of 10+ like embiid or giannis.

i think he doesn't get a lot of calls because he looks like he's always in control (so he isn't dislodged). but i see some plays like THIS and i just get annoyed. it's a jump shot so virtually any contact is a foul and yet there's 1) body contact, 2) invading his landing space, and 3) arm contact. two referees were positioned pretty well to see the contact and neither called it.

[Manocad]

Free Throw Attempts are the 2nd most efficient shot in basketball.... after the corner three.

Here's a side by side comparison.

Grant 19.3 PPG makes 6.4/15.2 FGAs and 4.7/5.6 FTAs is much more efficient scoring than Cade. 54.6 TS% for Grant (close to league average is around 55%)
Cade 16.2 PPG makes 6.2/15.4 FGAs and 1.9/2.3 FTAs in much less efficient scoring than Grant. 49.3 TS% for Cade (puts him in the bottom 20 or so of players in the league that play 22+ MPG)

A 5.3% difference in TS% is a pretty big difference in the efficiency in which you score. If Cade isn't going to get to the line more, he'll likely need to score about 47% on his two point shots and 36% on his three point shots to get to a league average scoring efficiency.

Right now Cade makes 1.9 of 6.1 three-point attempts per game. (32.0%)
Right now Cade makes 4.3 of 10.1 two-point attempts per game. (42.6%)

They shoot very close and similar attempts and percentages from 2 and from 3 so you'd except them to be close to the same efficiency of scorers but the FTs make Grant considerably more efficient.

Thanks for fleshing that out even more. Fts and 3 are very important for a scorer all the good to great ones usually are at least good at either one. If Cade can't become a volume 3pt guy with good efficiency which imo he is more likely to become. You'd hope he'd live at the line.

Sent from my 5087Z using RealGM mobile app

How do you propose he live at the line?

Sent from my SM-N975U using RealGM mobile app

Yeah, that’s where I was going with it. You can’t control getting to the line. Making your shots is literally the most efficient way to score.