Here is evidence of the fact Wilt was robbed of the 1962 MVP when he averaged 50PPG due to other players disliking him.

[rzzzzz]

[list=][/list]

"West, Baylor, Cunningham, Greer, Walker, Jackson "? Why bring that up? By judging a player by the number of rings they won these guys do not come close to measuring up to Havlicek, Cousy, Sam & K.C., Sanders, Ramsey, Heinsohn . So, there's the contradiction in your argument that the silly "Rings above all else" criteria inevitably leads to.

Were any of those guys on all the Celtics teams that titled with Russell? Did the early roster win any titles before Russell showed up? Did they win the title the year he was injured during the playoffs? Did they keep on winning titles after he retired? Were those guys on the USF teams that repeated as NCAA champions? When was the last time you heard of the Dons competing for that title? Were any of those guys on the Olympics team Russell took the gold with? (Chamberlain nearly won a title with Kansas, coming up just short.)

Plus, I may be too much a Philly fan, but I preferred Wilt’s Sixers roster. Greer was a 10 time all-star. Walker played great wherever he landed. Jasckson grew into an absolute terror, reminding me, a little, of Patrick with Georgetown. Even after Wilt left, Jackson was dominant, until injury cut him down. And Cunningham? I’m pretty sure his going to Carolina had a lot to do with ABA viability. I say Chamberlain played with some great guys in his career, as did Russell, but that ‘67 Sixers squad is the one that (contemporaneous) sports writers and (later) historians somehow coalesced around as the first of the GOAT teams that get tossed around. Though, again, I don’t see how you wouldn’t pick one of Russell’s rosters as well.

I don’t argue that Russell has to be THE GOAT, though 11 rings impress the hell out of me. I just can’t fathom folks getting upset at the notion that he should be considered. And having lived through that era I’m pretty damn confidant that fans and sports writers of that era never considered Russell as some lucky bastard who just got dragged along for the ride.

[MaxZaslofskyJr]

Yeah that's not how it works.

He has more individual accomplishments. He has far fewer titles.
.

Shows what you know. That's exactly how it works. Those banners hanging from the rafters in Boston? They don't say that Bill Russell was the NBA champion. They say that they were won by the Celtics.

They don't hang banners for being an NBA scoring champ now do they? "Titles" hah!

Do word definitions confuse you much?

[MaxZaslofskyJr]

[list=][/list]

"West, Baylor, Cunningham, Greer, Walker, Jackson "? Why bring that up? By judging a player by the number of rings they won these guys do not come close to measuring up to Havlicek, Cousy, Sam & K.C., Sanders, Ramsey, Heinsohn . So, there's the contradiction in your argument that the silly "Rings above all else" criteria inevitably leads to.

Were any of those guys on all the Celtics teams that titled with Russell? Did the early roster win any titles before Russell showed up? Did they win the title the year he was injured during the playoffs? Did they keep on winning titles after he retired? Were those guys on the USF teams that repeated as NCAA champions? When was the last time you heard of the Dons competing for that title? Were any of those guys on the Olympics team Russell took the gold with? (Chamberlain nearly won a title with Kansas, coming up just short.)

Plus, I may be too much a Philly fan, but I preferred Wilt’s Sixers roster. Greer was a 10 time all-star. Walker played great wherever he landed. Jasckson grew into an absolute terror, reminding me, a little, of Patrick with Georgetown. Even after Wilt left, Jackson was dominant, until injury cut him down. And Cunningham? I’m pretty sure his going to Carolina had a lot to do with ABA viability. I say Chamberlain played with some great guys in his career, as did Russell, but that ‘67 Sixers squad is the one that (contemporaneous) sports writers and (later) historians somehow coalesced around as the first of the GOAT teams that get tossed around. Though, again, I don’t see how you wouldn’t pick one of Russell’s rosters as well.

I don’t argue that Russell has to be THE GOAT, though 11 rings impress the hell out of me. I just can’t fathom folks getting upset at the notion that he should be considered. And having lived through that era I’m pretty damn confidant that fans and sports writers of that era never considered Russell as some lucky bastard who just got dragged along for the ride.

I'm not even making case for Wilt or Russell at this point. You make up your own mind. That's your journey. So, on that point we may be actually agreeing.

But... the logic of "Title Über alles" is flawed. After making the case that Russell > Wilt because of team titles, you cannot say that Wilt's teammates were as good as Russell's and disregard the vary measuring stick that you rolled out to use. Cunningham? less titles than Havliceck so not as good by your criteria, right? (and yes Havlicek won without Russell), Jerry West? loser player compared to Sam Jones by your criteria? on and on. Have it one way or the other. P.e.r.i.o.d.

And... the Celtics did win without Russell. Ever heard of Cowens? Jo Jo White? Don Chaney? Larry Bird? Danny Ainge? on and on... because the real source of winning continuity was Red Aurbach who always got top-level players to plug into the roster.

[GreatWhiteStiff]

Could someone provide me a cliffs notes of all the evidence the OP provided that players were voting against Wilt because they didn't like him?

[rzzzzz]

the Celtics did win without Russell. Ever heard of Cowens? Jo Jo White? Don Chaney? Larry Bird? Danny Ainge? on and on... because the real source of winning continuity was Red Aurbach who always got top-level players to plug into the roster.

But THE roster folks credited for giving Russell his titles didn’t win after he retired, just like they didn’t win before he got there, though again crediting Havlicek for hanging around for 4 years of much turnover leaguewide. I guess drafting Bird a year early was very clever, though Larry O’Brien was very generous to the Celtics about that gimmick. Also O’Brien announced to the whole league that Ainge was ineligible to be signed because he had the contract with the Blue Jays, before giving his blessing to Boston. It helps having friends in high places. (And thanks for reminding me about that bit of skullduggery.)

[KrAzY3]

Shows what you know. That's exactly how it works. Those banners hanging from the rafters in Boston? They don't say that Bill Russell was the NBA champion. They say that they were won by the Celtics.

They don't hang banners for being an NBA scoring champ now do they? "Titles" hah!

Do word definitions confuse you much?

You are just playing an incredibly stupid game of semantics which means nothing.

You might as well point out that Andre Drummond has 4 "titles" by your definition, while LeBron only has 5. So Drummond is almost as good right?

[MaxZaslofskyJr]

They don't hang banners for being an NBA scoring champ now do they? "Titles" hah!

Do word definitions confuse you much?

You are just playing an incredibly stupid game of semantics which means nothing.

You might as well point out that Andre Drummond has 4 "titles" by your definition, while LeBron only has 5. So Drummond is almost as good right?

I will light a candle and pray for you.

[MaxZaslofskyJr]

the Celtics did win without Russell. Ever heard of Cowens? Jo Jo White? Don Chaney? Larry Bird? Danny Ainge? on and on... because the real source of winning continuity was Red Aurbach who always got top-level players to plug into the roster.

But THE roster folks credited for giving Russell his titles didn’t win after he retired, just like they didn’t win before he got there, though again crediting Havlicek for hanging around for 4 years of much turnover leaguewide. I guess drafting Bird a year early was very clever, though Larry O’Brien was very generous to the Celtics about that gimmick. Also O’Brien announced to the whole league that Ainge was ineligible to be signed because he had the contract with the Blue Jays, before giving his blessing to Boston. It helps having friends in high places. (And thanks for reminding me about that bit of skullduggery.)

Of course, the roster after Russell left didn't win. When almost any elite player leaves a team, those things happens, no?

[rzzzzz]

Of course, the roster after Russell left didn't win. When almost any elite player leaves a team, those things happens, no?

Russell was “elite”? I can live with that. How elite? 11 rings worth.