Political Roundtable Part XXX

[closg00]

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tUCKER is by-far the most loathsome public figure in the U.S. currently, more-so than the clownish Trump.

[Pointgod]

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But tell me again how both parties are the same and filled with racists…… the fact that Democrats could fill the court with more Ketaji Brown Jacksons is more than enough reason to vote Democratic Party the next 20 years.

[TGW]

I wish this energy was the same when the disgusting US (and Biden backed) Saudi military commits genocide against the Yemenis people. But they're brown, and their government isn't corrupted by the American deep state, so they don't matter. Who cares how many people MBS murders in his country and other countries...he's got that sweet black stuff, so he gets a pass.

Keep the same energy, white libs.

[dckingsfan]

The false dichotomy is choosing between what is going on between the Russians and Ukraine and other events.

There can be stupid things the US did (and continues to do) and yet still have "energy" to defend the Ukraine against a brutal regime like Russia that works incredibly hard at undermining Democracy.

The US has made many foreign policy mistakes since WWII - this isn't one of them.

[Ruzious]

The idea that you shouldn't fight against certain horrible things because there are other horrible things going on is... do I really need to say it?

[Pointgod]

I wish this energy was the same when the disgusting US (and Biden backed) Saudi military commits genocide against the Yemenis people. But they're brown, and their government isn't corrupted by the American deep state, so they don't matter. Who cares how many people MBS murders in his country and other countries...he's got that sweet black stuff, so he gets a pass.

Keep the same energy, white libs.

Ah bringing up Yemen which is a sophisticated piece of whataboutism that ignores the fact that Saudi Arabia’s atrocities in Yemen have been extensively covered and reported on in the mainstream media and a whole congressional act to stop US from funding Saudia Arabia’s war in Yemen was passed and vetoed by you guessed it Donald **** Trump.

https://www.vox.com/2019/4/4/18293954/war-powers-resolution-passes-congress-yemen-bds

The US should 100% end their relationship with Saudi Arabia and MBS is a scumbag that should be investigated for war crimes. I don’t think anyone is disputing that. At this point you’re just copying and pasting Glenn Greenwald Twitter rants and you ironically use the term deep state (or maybe unironically since you voted for Trump). Yes but everyone who isn’t part of the reactionary left is just a white liberal to you.

[TGW]

The idea that you shouldn't fight against certain horrible things because there are other horrible things going on is... do I really need to say it?

did I say that old man? I said keep that same energy, because I'm not seeing it. When Biden and his **** administration decided to continue to give the Saudi's weapons to continue the genocide, I did not see white libs in arms. I did not see universal condemnation from the west. It's because white liberals like to pick and choose who the "bad guy" is when it's convenient to them. It's why the Democrats are going to get voted out of office in the next cycle...complete hypocrisy in almost every important matter.

[Ruzious]

The idea that you shouldn't fight against certain horrible things because there are other horrible things going on is... do I really need to say it?

did I say that old man? I said keep that same energy, because I'm not seeing it. When Biden and his **** administration decided to continue to give the Saudi's weapons to continue the genocide, I did not see white libs in arms. I did not see universal condemnation from the west. It's because white liberals like to pick and choose who the "bad guy" is when it's convenient to them. It's why the Democrats are going to get voted out of office in the next cycle...complete hypocrisy in almost every important matter.

Lol, you just used the word hypocrisy to explain yourself - so the answer to your question, middle aged one, is Yes, you did say that.

[dckingsfan]

I wish this energy was the same when the disgusting US (and Biden backed) Saudi military commits genocide against the Yemenis people. But they're brown, and their government isn't corrupted by the American deep state, so they don't matter. Who cares how many people MBS murders in his country and other countries...he's got that sweet black stuff, so he gets a pass.

Keep the same energy, white libs.

Ah bringing up Yemen which is a sophisticated piece of whataboutism that ignores the fact that Saudi Arabia’s atrocities in Yemen have been extensively covered and reported on in the mainstream media and a whole congressional act to stop US from funding Saudia Arabia’s war in Yemen was passed and vetoed by you guessed it Donald **** Trump.

https://www.vox.com/2019/4/4/18293954/war-powers-resolution-passes-congress-yemen-bds

The US should 100% end their relationship with Saudi Arabia and MBS is a scumbag that should be investigated for war crimes. I don’t think anyone is disputing that. At this point you’re just copying and pasting Glenn Greenwald Twitter rants and you ironically use the term deep state (or maybe unironically since you voted for Trump). Yes but everyone who isn’t part of the reactionary left is just a white liberal to you.

So inconvenient.

[Zonkerbl]

Speaking of countries that asked for our help, UAE and I believe Yemen asked for our help and we slapped them in the face. UAE and Yemen were in line to get free trade agreements from the W admin and Chuck Schumer raised a big stink about UAE buying oil refinery assets in the US, it became a big racist/Islamophobic thing in the MSM and now we aren't good friends with either of them anymore. W was trying to increase US influence in the ME through brute force w Iraq and w diplomacy with his FTAs and the Dems were the one leveraging US racism to undermine it. I'm STILL angry about it, more than 15 years later. One of the few *good* things the W admin was trying to do and Schumer took a big racist dump on it.

Weirdly I think I'm on TGW's side on this, although for slightly different reasons.

[pancakes3]

this is just another instance of TGW having a legitimate point but losing the plot by turning the vitriol to 11.

edit: and that's coming from someone who was almost banned for calling nate dumb. so, ya know. glass houses.

[Bonscott]

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But tell me again how both parties are the same and filled with racists…… the fact that Democrats could fill the court with more Ketaji Brown Jacksons is more than enough reason to vote Democratic Party the next 20 years.

Thanks to the Obama error racism from white towards black is condemned (rightfully so) but racism from black towards white is acceptable but the few democrats that can actually think don't like talking about it

[Ruzious]

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But tell me again how both parties are the same and filled with racists…… the fact that Democrats could fill the court with more Ketaji Brown Jacksons is more than enough reason to vote Democratic Party the next 20 years.

Thanks to the Obama error racism from white towards black is condemned (rightfully so) but racism from black towards white is acceptable but the few democrats that can actually think don't like talking about it

Hey, we all know it's tough being a poor white racist. Hang in there.

[Bonscott]

Read on Twitter

But tell me again how both parties are the same and filled with racists…… the fact that Democrats could fill the court with more Ketaji Brown Jacksons is more than enough reason to vote Democratic Party the next 20 years.

Thanks to the Obama error racism from white towards black is condemned (rightfully so) but racism from black towards white is acceptable but the few democrats that can actually think don't like talking about it

Hey, we all know it's tough being a poor white racist. Hang in there.

You proved my point for me

[pancakes3]

First off, I don't even know if the rest of this post is necessary, given that the initial assertion blames Obama for an increase of black-to-white racism, or that democrats aren't thinking about it.

There was a period in my life where I also believed that racism = harboring biases, and if black people had biases of white people, then it is equivalent to white people harboring biases against black people. But then taking a couple more seconds to think about that assertion, the false equivalence really falls apart.

The fatal defect in this line of thinking is the refusal to accept that racism exists on two separate levels: individually and institutionally. Regardless, the white on black v. black on white argument fails both analyses.

re: individual racism
What is the black on white racism? Assuming that all white people are racist? What else does it boil down to? What prejudices are black people projecting onto white people solely based on their race? Because the white-on-black racism comes with a laundry list of more sinister and specific biases: that black people are more likely to be criminals, drug abusers, have broken families, more violent, more lazy, etc. The scales of racist assumptions aren't balanced, which makes the whataboutism come off flimsy and pedantic.

Given that the "rise of anti-white racism" boils down to white people feeling "dang, more people are assuming I'm racist because i'm white even though i'm not" what's the actual harm of that unjustified assumption compared to the prejudice a black person faces? It's pretty clear which side has the more legitimate and pressing concern.

Additionally, the "oh more people assume I'm racist" prejudice is coming from more than just the black community. The opinion that white people are racists as a default is one that is shared by the latino and asian communities as well. This is borne out of tangible, identifiable instances of white racism, and its rise across the country over the country's history. The language that white people re: immigration, terrorism, welfare, and affirmative action, as well as the documented violence against minorities of all categories show that these prejudices are often justified, given the consequences. A black, latino, middle eastern, and asian person's assumption and wariness of white racism is born out of fear of a credible threat of violence from white people. A white person's wariness of black racism doesn't carry with the same threat of violence; compare the number of shootings of white people by black people based on the black person perceiving the white person as racist v the number of shootings of black people by white people based on suspected criminal activity. There are many Trayvon Martins left cold in the ground, but how many middle aged black people are stalking white teenagers and standing their ground against white teenagers? And even if there were, would the black community's response be nearly as robust as white people's defense of Zimmerman? Or even the white community's defense of Dylan Roof? Kyle Rittenhouse?

Also note that this "increase" in anti-white sentiments is only being reported by the white community. Minorities have always thought that White people were racist. It just that after a 40 year lull, minorities are now vocalizing it again. Anti-white sentiments didn't disappear in the 70's, 80's, 90's and 2000's, but I suppose that's the "fault" of the minority community. However, just because nobody marched on Washington or spoke up about it, doesn't mean that the anti-white sentiments "stopped." It probably did take the "Obama error" to revive the national discussion though. The fact that a black person was elected to President, and you still had white people talking about how he's "not their president" or that he's the antichrist, or that he's a muslim-born sleeper agent (really running the gamut of racism in that one) brought to light how little progress has been made from the 60's to 2008. That's the spark that vocalized the anti-white sentiment that was there all along for the intervening 40 years.

Lastly, there is no requested remedy for those defending anti-white racism. I suppose there is a want to end discussions of race, or a desire to accept "not all white people." Compare that with the remedy requested by the other minority groups. This is indicative of both the seriousness as well as the legitimacy of the cries of racism. So basically, sure, assuming white people are across the board racist is technically racism in that it's an assumption on the basis of race, but substantively it isn't the same type of racism that minorities face.

re: institutional racism
Someone sitting at home thinking that their white neighbors are racist is ultimately inconsequential. The debate about racism, and policy changes thereof are directed at institutions. I'm sure most minorities don't really care that their white neighbors are racist as much as they care about the institutions are racist. This is why most people who comment on racism declare that actual racism requires the target to be a member of the minority/marginalized community. White people at large is just a proxy because white people run the institutions in this country. A black person can't be racist against a white person in this country because that's not how the power dynamics in this country works. You can make that argument in a predominantly black country, but not here.

Institutions are also the ones being targeted in talking about remedies. White neighbors don't have power over black individuals but when that white neighbor goes to their job at a bank and denies a black individual a loan, or refuses to sell to a black person so that they can even be neighbors, or arrests that black person when in their capacity as a police officer, or sends the black person to jail with disproportionately higher and more severe sentences in their capacity as a judge, or refuses to hire a black person in their capacity as the managing class of this country - those are the real problems. Karens sitting in their cars and locking the doors or clutching their purses a little tight, or walking across the street is a racist act, but it's negligible compared to the racism brought about when those karens are acting on behalf of an institution.

But all of this seems obvious in the year of our lord 2022.

[dckingsfan]

this is just another instance of TGW having a legitimate point but losing the plot by turning the vitriol to 11.

edit: and that's coming from someone who was almost banned for calling nate dumb. so, ya know. glass houses.

Two things. TGW is right to point out the US foreign policy stupidity of the past.

But saying we made mistakes so we should now not do the right thing? No. Someone pointed out earlier that congress tried to remedy the specific issue he addressed but it was vetoed by Trump.

And then there is this...

Read on Twitter

[dckingsfan]

Spoiler:

First off, I don't even know if the rest of this post is necessary, given that the initial assertion blames Obama for an increase of black-to-white racism, or that democrats aren't thinking about it.

There was a period in my life where I also believed that racism = harboring biases, and if black people had biases of white people, then it is equivalent to white people harboring biases against black people. But then taking a couple more seconds to think about that assertion, the false equivalence really falls apart.

The fatal defect in this line of thinking is the refusal to accept that racism exists on two separate levels: individually and institutionally. Regardless, the white on black v. black on white argument fails both analyses.

re: individual racism
What is the black on white racism? Assuming that all white people are racist? What else does it boil down to? What prejudices are black people projecting onto white people solely based on their race? Because the white-on-black racism comes with a laundry list of more sinister and specific biases: that black people are more likely to be criminals, drug abusers, have broken families, more violent, more lazy, etc. The scales of racist assumptions aren't balanced, which makes the whataboutism come off flimsy and pedantic.

Given that the "rise of anti-white racism" boils down to white people feeling "dang, more people are assuming I'm racist because i'm white even though i'm not" what's the actual harm of that unjustified assumption compared to the prejudice a black person faces? It's pretty clear which side has the more legitimate and pressing concern.

Additionally, the "oh more people assume I'm racist" prejudice is coming from more than just the black community. The opinion that white people are racists as a default is one that is shared by the latino and asian communities as well. This is borne out of tangible, identifiable instances of white racism, and its rise across the country over the country's history. The language that white people re: immigration, terrorism, welfare, and affirmative action, as well as the documented violence against minorities of all categories show that these prejudices are often justified, given the consequences. A black, latino, middle eastern, and asian person's assumption and wariness of white racism is born out of fear of a credible threat of violence from white people. A white person's wariness of black racism doesn't carry with the same threat of violence; compare the number of shootings of white people by black people based on the black person perceiving the white person as racist v the number of shootings of black people by white people based on suspected criminal activity. There are many Trayvon Martins left cold in the ground, but how many middle aged black people are stalking white teenagers and standing their ground against white teenagers? And even if there were, would the black community's response be nearly as robust as white people's defense of Zimmerman? Or even the white community's defense of Dylan Roof? Kyle Rittenhouse?

Also note that this "increase" in anti-white sentiments is only being reported by the white community. Minorities have always thought that White people were racist. It just that after a 40 year lull, minorities are now vocalizing it again. Anti-white sentiments didn't disappear in the 70's, 80's, 90's and 2000's, but I suppose that's the "fault" of the minority community. However, just because nobody marched on Washington or spoke up about it, doesn't mean that the anti-white sentiments "stopped." It probably did take the "Obama error" to revive the national discussion though. The fact that a black person was elected to President, and you still had white people talking about how he's "not their president" or that he's the antichrist, or that he's a muslim-born sleeper agent (really running the gamut of racism in that one) brought to light how little progress has been made from the 60's to 2008. That's the spark that vocalized the anti-white sentiment that was there all along for the intervening 40 years.

Lastly, there is no requested remedy for those defending anti-white racism. I suppose there is a want to end discussions of race, or a desire to accept "not all white people." Compare that with the remedy requested by the other minority groups. This is indicative of both the seriousness as well as the legitimacy of the cries of racism. So basically, sure, assuming white people are across the board racist is technically racism in that it's an assumption on the basis of race, but substantively it isn't the same type of racism that minorities face.

re: institutional racism
Someone sitting at home thinking that their white neighbors are racist is ultimately inconsequential. The debate about racism, and policy changes thereof are directed at institutions. I'm sure most minorities don't really care that their white neighbors are racist as much as they care about the institutions are racist. This is why most people who comment on racism declare that actual racism requires the target to be a member of the minority/marginalized community. White people at large is just a proxy because white people run the institutions in this country. A black person can't be racist against a white person in this country because that's not how the power dynamics in this country works. You can make that argument in a predominantly black country, but not here.

Institutions are also the ones being targeted in talking about remedies. White neighbors don't have power over black individuals but when that white neighbor goes to their job at a bank and denies a black individual a loan, or refuses to sell to a black person so that they can even be neighbors, or arrests that black person when in their capacity as a police officer, or sends the black person to jail with disproportionately higher and more severe sentences in their capacity as a judge, or refuses to hire a black person in their capacity as the managing class of this country - those are the real problems. Karens sitting in their cars and locking the doors or clutching their purses a little tight, or walking across the street is a racist act, but it's negligible compared to the racism brought about when those karens are acting on behalf of an institution.

But all of this seems obvious in the year of our lord 2022.

HOF post but this is the political thread... well articulated.

[Zonkerbl]

Spoiler:

First off, I don't even know if the rest of this post is necessary, given that the initial assertion blames Obama for an increase of black-to-white racism, or that democrats aren't thinking about it.

There was a period in my life where I also believed that racism = harboring biases, and if black people had biases of white people, then it is equivalent to white people harboring biases against black people. But then taking a couple more seconds to think about that assertion, the false equivalence really falls apart.

The fatal defect in this line of thinking is the refusal to accept that racism exists on two separate levels: individually and institutionally. Regardless, the white on black v. black on white argument fails both analyses.

re: individual racism
What is the black on white racism? Assuming that all white people are racist? What else does it boil down to? What prejudices are black people projecting onto white people solely based on their race? Because the white-on-black racism comes with a laundry list of more sinister and specific biases: that black people are more likely to be criminals, drug abusers, have broken families, more violent, more lazy, etc. The scales of racist assumptions aren't balanced, which makes the whataboutism come off flimsy and pedantic.

Given that the "rise of anti-white racism" boils down to white people feeling "dang, more people are assuming I'm racist because i'm white even though i'm not" what's the actual harm of that unjustified assumption compared to the prejudice a black person faces? It's pretty clear which side has the more legitimate and pressing concern.

Additionally, the "oh more people assume I'm racist" prejudice is coming from more than just the black community. The opinion that white people are racists as a default is one that is shared by the latino and asian communities as well. This is borne out of tangible, identifiable instances of white racism, and its rise across the country over the country's history. The language that white people re: immigration, terrorism, welfare, and affirmative action, as well as the documented violence against minorities of all categories show that these prejudices are often justified, given the consequences. A black, latino, middle eastern, and asian person's assumption and wariness of white racism is born out of fear of a credible threat of violence from white people. A white person's wariness of black racism doesn't carry with the same threat of violence; compare the number of shootings of white people by black people based on the black person perceiving the white person as racist v the number of shootings of black people by white people based on suspected criminal activity. There are many Trayvon Martins left cold in the ground, but how many middle aged black people are stalking white teenagers and standing their ground against white teenagers? And even if there were, would the black community's response be nearly as robust as white people's defense of Zimmerman? Or even the white community's defense of Dylan Roof? Kyle Rittenhouse?

Also note that this "increase" in anti-white sentiments is only being reported by the white community. Minorities have always thought that White people were racist. It just that after a 40 year lull, minorities are now vocalizing it again. Anti-white sentiments didn't disappear in the 70's, 80's, 90's and 2000's, but I suppose that's the "fault" of the minority community. However, just because nobody marched on Washington or spoke up about it, doesn't mean that the anti-white sentiments "stopped." It probably did take the "Obama error" to revive the national discussion though. The fact that a black person was elected to President, and you still had white people talking about how he's "not their president" or that he's the antichrist, or that he's a muslim-born sleeper agent (really running the gamut of racism in that one) brought to light how little progress has been made from the 60's to 2008. That's the spark that vocalized the anti-white sentiment that was there all along for the intervening 40 years.

Lastly, there is no requested remedy for those defending anti-white racism. I suppose there is a want to end discussions of race, or a desire to accept "not all white people." Compare that with the remedy requested by the other minority groups. This is indicative of both the seriousness as well as the legitimacy of the cries of racism. So basically, sure, assuming white people are across the board racist is technically racism in that it's an assumption on the basis of race, but substantively it isn't the same type of racism that minorities face.

re: institutional racism
Someone sitting at home thinking that their white neighbors are racist is ultimately inconsequential. The debate about racism, and policy changes thereof are directed at institutions. I'm sure most minorities don't really care that their white neighbors are racist as much as they care about the institutions are racist. This is why most people who comment on racism declare that actual racism requires the target to be a member of the minority/marginalized community. White people at large is just a proxy because white people run the institutions in this country. A black person can't be racist against a white person in this country because that's not how the power dynamics in this country works. You can make that argument in a predominantly black country, but not here.

Institutions are also the ones being targeted in talking about remedies. White neighbors don't have power over black individuals but when that white neighbor goes to their job at a bank and denies a black individual a loan, or refuses to sell to a black person so that they can even be neighbors, or arrests that black person when in their capacity as a police officer, or sends the black person to jail with disproportionately higher and more severe sentences in their capacity as a judge, or refuses to hire a black person in their capacity as the managing class of this country - those are the real problems. Karens sitting in their cars and locking the doors or clutching their purses a little tight, or walking across the street is a racist act, but it's negligible compared to the racism brought about when those karens are acting on behalf of an institution.

But all of this seems obvious in the year of our lord 2022.

HOF post but this is the political thread... well articulated.

A lot of interesting issues in this post. I think there's two that really need to be emphasized:

1. A large majority of liberal white people, particularly boomers, have unconscious biases against black people that help perpetuate disadvantages for minorities that are built into our institutions. The tendency for the police to target black people for persecution is the biggest one. This is liberal white people's fault and they're the ones who need to fix it. By which I mean the biggest interaction between police and black people happens in urban areas that are 99% run by Democrats.

2. Why don't incomes of black people and white people converge? This is a variant of the question "why don't the per capita incomes of low income and high income countries converge?" It is THE major unsolved mystery of economic theory. That and "why do people invest in crypto?" The answer is that incumbents have an advantage over entrants. No matter the racial composition of a zoning board, the fact is that the zoning board, by definition, consists of people who already live there. By definition, people who *want* to move into the neighborhood have no representation on the zoning board. Not surprisingly, then, decisions get made that benefit the incumbents and shut out the entrants.

This isn't racism, except... all the little extra barriers that minorities face mean that overcoming the obstacles put up by incumbents is easier for white people to overcome than everyone else. Not surprisingly, white people's incomes go up and everyone else's stagnate. Like the conservatives say, there's no one out there actively "being racist," because we've all agreed as a society that instructing our police to disproportionately target non-white people "isn't racist." All the other problems non white people face spring from these differences in treatment, mainly in law enforcement but also in banking.

A lot of new jobs are created by small firms. Commercial scale "arms length," data driven banking doesn't work for small firms. The model that works is "community banking," which is based on relationships - I lend you a little bit of money, and if you pay it back, I lend you more, and so on. This model is vulnerable to racism and it shows. Without being "intentionally racist," a little bit of making the black business person try a little harder than the white one, over several decades, adds up to millions and millions of lost opportunities for job creation in minority communities.

The frustrating thing is there's no bad guy, except people who think the War on Drugs wasn't racist. The system isn't even the bad guy - but for the small differences in treatment between different customers, the system would work fine. It's the "I don't hate black people - I have friends who are black" level of racism that causes all the trouble. "Little racism." The kind of racism Trump shows towards Jews. Well, and muslims. And immigrants. And BLM protestors. [Incidentally, this is what conservatives mean when they say they "don't see color." But that's precisely the problem - your bias is unconscious. You have to observe your own actions objectively - would I ask a white person this question? or, would I make a person from a majority white zip code submit this paperwork?]

It's eliminating that last little bit of racism that makes the most difference. And is the hardest to do.

[Wizardspride]

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[dobrojim]

I wish this energy was the same when the disgusting US (and Biden backed) Saudi military commits genocide against the Yemenis people. But they're brown, and their government isn't corrupted by the American deep state, so they don't matter. Who cares how many people MBS murders in his country and other countries...he's got that sweet black stuff, so he gets a pass.

Keep the same energy, white libs.

Ah bringing up Yemen which is a sophisticated piece of whataboutism that ignores the fact that Saudi Arabia’s atrocities in Yemen have been extensively covered and reported on in the mainstream media and a whole congressional act to stop US from funding Saudia Arabia’s war in Yemen was passed and vetoed by you guessed it Donald **** Trump.

https://www.vox.com/2019/4/4/18293954/war-powers-resolution-passes-congress-yemen-bds

The US should 100% end their relationship with Saudi Arabia and MBS is a scumbag that should be investigated for war crimes. I don’t think anyone is disputing that. At this point you’re just copying and pasting Glenn Greenwald Twitter rants and you ironically use the term deep state (or maybe unironically since you voted for Trump). Yes but everyone who isn’t part of the reactionary left is just a white liberal to you.

I posted here about that like 2-3 weeks ago

Hungerward.org

We should absolutely end anything which supports or makes us complicit
in this crime against humanity and genocide.