Rank these players in order of Rim Protection ability.

[70sFan]

The issue isn't Thurmond's strength, the man was powerful. It isn't his ability to guard Wilt/Kareem, he may have been the GOAT man defender in the post. We are isolating one small part of his overal game. The question is whether his Rim Protection is on a par with Kareem's (to use his closest contemporary in the poll). The answer is, I don't think so.

What do you think he lacked in that area though? From what I've watched, I see Thurmond as certainly very elite rim protector. He was extremely long, contested shots without overcommiting and could hold the groud against more agressive drives. I don't find any major concerns with his defensive vision either.

From what I remember watching them, people just weren't as afraid of Thurmond. He didn't change the amount of shots that Russ, Wilt, or Kareem did. It's just an impression.

You could be right, we don't have a lot of prime Thurmond footage. That said, I don't find him less intimidating than Ewing for example. He didn't have freakish combination of Kareem's height and athleticism either, but his absurd length allowed him to contest everything without overcommiting and his defensive rotations were fundamentally sound in games I watched.

Maybe someone else who tracks game from that era could help (trex for example?), as I haven't studied Thurmond footage very hard either. My impression is quite different than yours though.

[penbeast0]

didn't have freakish combination of Kareem's height and athleticism either, but his absurd length allowed him to contest everything without overcommiting and his defensive rotations were fundamentally sound in games I watched.

Maybe someone else who tracks game from that era could help (trex for example?), as I haven't studied Thurmond footage very hard either. My impression is quite different than yours though.

Not sure we are really disagreeing. I have him tentatively in a tier with Kareem and Ewing, above the Giannis/Garnett tier and below the Mourning/Duncan tier. My comment was just that I was less sure on him than most of the others in terms of my ranking.

[henshao]

Very curious where people would put Shawn Bradley in all this...

[feyki]

Durant probably better rim protector than Yannis.

Eaton and then Gobert, then rest.

[70sFan]

Durant probably better rim protector than Yannis.

That's quite a take, you have to have a lot of evidences to back it up.

[feyki]

Durant probably better rim protector than Yannis.

That's quite a take, you have to have a lot of evidences to back it up.

2021 RS Less than 10ft shots;
Durant - 5,2 DFGA, %50,8 DFG,
Yannis - 4,7 DFGA, %51,4 DFG,

2021 PS;
Durant - 6,5 DFGA, %55,1 DFG,
Yannis - 5,5 DFGA, %53,4 DFG,

2022 RS;
Durant - 5,3 DFGA, %56,1 DFG,
Yannis - 6,3 DFGA, %49,6 DFG
. Seems Durant better at the paint in the 2021 both in the season and the playoffs and Yannis looks on the different tier this year under the rim but overall shot defence still close with Durant's 13,3 DFGA and %42,6 DFG to Yannis' 14,3 DFGA, %43,2 DFG this season. Maybe, Yannis didn't want to defend much on the exterior and that keeps his energy at the rim. Maybe, even that would put him another tier, defensively, like the last playoffs off-ball game made him offensively. His outside shot defence(15+ft) simply at average level this season.

[70sFan]

Durant probably better rim protector than Yannis.

That's quite a take, you have to have a lot of evidences to back it up.

2021 RS Less than 10ft shots;
Durant - 5,2 DFGA, %50,8 DFG,
Yannis - 4,7 DFGA, %51,4 DFG,

2021 PS;
Durant - 6,5 DFGA, %55,1 DFG,
Yannis - 5,5 DFGA, %53,4 DFG,

2022 RS;
Durant - 5,3 DFGA, %56,1 DFG,
Yannis - 6,3 DFGA, %49,6 DFG
. Seems Durant better at the paint in the 2021 both in the season and the playoffs and Yannis looks on the different tier this year under the rim but overall shot defence still close with Durant's 13,3 DFGA and %42,6 DFG to Yannis' 14,3 DFGA, %43,2 DFG this season. Maybe, Yannis didn't want to defend much on the exterior and that keeps his energy at the rim. Maybe, even that would put him another tier, defensively, like the last playoffs off-ball game made him offensively. His outside shot defence(15+ft) simply at average level this season.

Why did you include all shots within 10 feet for evaluating rim protection? Any reason for that? Also, it's important who you defend, not only raw efficiency.

Here are stats inside 6 feet:

2019 Giannis: 4.2 DFGA, 50.8 DFG%, -10.6 DIFF%
2020 Giannis: 4.1 DFGA, 41.3 DFG%, -20.4 DIFF%
2021 Giannis: 3.8 DFGA, 52.0 DFG%, -11.1 DIFF%
2022 Giannis: 5.4 DFGA, 50.7 DFG%, -13.2 DIFF%

2017 Durant: 4.6 DFGA, 54.4 DFG%, -6.2 DIFF%
2018 Durant: 4.4 DFGA, 56.6 DFG%, -4.5 DIFF%
2019 Durant: 3.8 DFGA, 56.6 DFG%, -4.1 DIFF%
2021 Durant: 4.0 DFGA, 53.6 DFG%, -8.7 DIFF%
2022 Durant: 4.5 DFGA, 57.1 DFG%, -6.0 DIFF%

Durant looks considerably worse in volume, efficiency and relative efficiency.

You picked Durant's best season against Giannis weakest season and you still failed. About postseason - it's such a small sample in Durant's case that I wouldn't put too much weight into that. Of you take a look at his year by year postseason numbers, it's clear that he doesn't compare to Giannis.

Not to mention that defending field goals is only a fraction of overall defensive impact.

[feyki]

That's quite a take, you have to have a lot of evidences to back it up.

2021 RS Less than 10ft shots;
Durant - 5,2 DFGA, %50,8 DFG,
Yannis - 4,7 DFGA, %51,4 DFG,

2021 PS;
Durant - 6,5 DFGA, %55,1 DFG,
Yannis - 5,5 DFGA, %53,4 DFG,

2022 RS;
Durant - 5,3 DFGA, %56,1 DFG,
Yannis - 6,3 DFGA, %49,6 DFG
. Seems Durant better at the paint in the 2021 both in the season and the playoffs and Yannis looks on the different tier this year under the rim but overall shot defence still close with Durant's 13,3 DFGA and %42,6 DFG to Yannis' 14,3 DFGA, %43,2 DFG this season. Maybe, Yannis didn't want to defend much on the exterior and that keeps his energy at the rim. Maybe, even that would put him another tier, defensively, like the last playoffs off-ball game made him offensively. His outside shot defence(15+ft) simply at average level this season.

Why did you include all shots within 10 feet for evaluating rim protection? Any reason for that? Also, it's important who you defend, not only raw efficiency.

Here are stats inside 6 feet:

2019 Giannis: 4.2 DFGA, 50.8 DFG%, -10.6 DIFF%
2020 Giannis: 4.1 DFGA, 41.3 DFG%, -20.4 DIFF%
2021 Giannis: 3.8 DFGA, 52.0 DFG%, -11.1 DIFF%
2022 Giannis: 5.4 DFGA, 50.7 DFG%, -13.2 DIFF%

2017 Durant: 4.6 DFGA, 54.4 DFG%, -6.2 DIFF%
2018 Durant: 4.4 DFGA, 56.6 DFG%, -4.5 DIFF%
2019 Durant: 3.8 DFGA, 56.6 DFG%, -4.1 DIFF%
2021 Durant: 4.0 DFGA, 53.6 DFG%, -8.7 DIFF%
2022 Durant: 4.5 DFGA, 57.1 DFG%, -6.0 DIFF%

Durant looks considerably worse in volume, efficiency and relative efficiency.

You picked Durant's best season against Giannis weakest season and you still failed. About postseason - it's such a small sample in Durant's case that I wouldn't put too much weight into that. Of you take a look at his year by year postseason numbers, it's clear that he doesn't compare to Giannis.

Not to mention that defending field goals is only a fraction of overall defensive impact.

When I'd track players I'd list ranges as 8,8/16,16/23. 6feet is little bit less it's 2,5 meter. So, it's not a special take for here. Even with 6ft data, Giannis's only up-tier year is this season, rest are still close, all 17,18,19,21. 19 playoffs also favors clearly Yannis, but 17 and 18 Playoffs also favors Durant as the 2021 season and the Playoffs.

If we're including context into it, Durant is playing one of the worst defensive teams in the league past two years while Giannis been in the one of the best past 4/5 years.

[70sFan]

When I'd track players I'd list ranges as 8,8/16,16/23. 6feet is little bit less it's 2,5 meter. So, it's not a special take for here.

A shot from 2.5 meter is not a shot at the rim anymore, not even close.

Even with 6ft data, Giannis's only up-tier year is this season, rest are still close, all 17,18,19,21.

2022 isn't even Giannis best season by 6 feet data - 2020 is clearly the best.

The rest aren't close, Durant's best season is worse than Giannis worst.

If we're including context into it, Durant is playing one of the worst defensive teams in the league past two years while Giannis been in the one of the best past 4/5 years.

That's why I included Warriors years when Durant played with the best defensive roster in the league. He didn't come close to Giannis in any of these years.

[Eagle4]

Should add Whiteside, his only redeeming trait outside rebounding.

[feyki]

When I'd track players I'd list ranges as 8,8/16,16/23. 6feet is little bit less it's 2,5 meter. So, it's not a special take for here.

A shot from 2.5 meter is not a shot at the rim anymore, not even close.

Even with 6ft data, Giannis's only up-tier year is this season, rest are still close, all 17,18,19,21.

2022 isn't even Giannis best season by 6 feet data - 2020 is clearly the best.

The rest aren't close, Durant's best season is worse than Giannis worst.

If we're including context into it, Durant is playing one of the worst defensive teams in the league past two years while Giannis been in the one of the best past 4/5 years.

That's why I included Warriors years when Durant played with the best defensive roster in the league. He didn't come close to Giannis in any of these years.

Well, where should we put 3 meter lay-ups or hooks/floaters then?

You didn't get it. 2020 Giannis was the best of him, but year by year 2022 Yannis only the player who was another tier as a rim protector than Durant. You can't take within %5 differences as another tier here and Durant had a multiple years with better line than Yannis.

Besides 17, Warriors were not elite, defensively and even with 17 Warriors some of the Bucks teams were better than them defensively.

My main point was that If KD was close or comparable player regardinng the rim protection to Yannis, then Yannis has no job in that list. Could you compare Yannis and Gobert or even his teammate Lopez.

[PurpleGreenGold]

How is Mark Eaton NOT on this list? He couldn't jump, he couldn't move side to side, he couldn't step out on a pick and roll, but the man could protect the rim as one of the best to ever do it. He was just so massive, and had enough basketball IQ to be a very effective Rim Protector. I would put him easily top 10, possibly top 5.

I would put Eaton in front of Gobert.

I probably would too. I'd put him in the top 5 above most of these dudes.

[LAL1947]

Tier 1: David Robinson, Hakeem Olujawon . . . quickness and ability to go out onto the floor then recover to rim protect give them the advantage over the more stationary greats like Mutombo.

Tier 2A: Mutombo, Gobert . . . not as mobile but great size and shotblocking
Tier 2B: Duncan, Mourning, Ben Wallace, Howard . . . more mobile than 2A but not as long as either 1 or 2A.

Tier 3: Abdul-Jabbar, Ewing, maybe Thurmond . . . great shotblockers, very close to the level 2 guys

Tier 4: Garnett, Giannis . . . great mobility and horizontal defense, not as much of a pure rim protector mentality

Tier 5: Marc Gasol, Draymond Green, Tyson Chandler, maybe Thurmond . . . more positional, less vertical

Not sure how good Nate Thurmond's rim protection actually was. His block numbers would put him in the Tier 2B category but there were more opportunities with the 60s/70s defenses and he seemed to focus more on man defense and less on help defense than Jabbar.

I like the list, but I don't think the description of 2B works well for Duncan in particular.

Agreed. I think Duncan should be in Tier 3 or 4.

[70sFan]

Tier 1: David Robinson, Hakeem Olujawon . . . quickness and ability to go out onto the floor then recover to rim protect give them the advantage over the more stationary greats like Mutombo.

Tier 2A: Mutombo, Gobert . . . not as mobile but great size and shotblocking
Tier 2B: Duncan, Mourning, Ben Wallace, Howard . . . more mobile than 2A but not as long as either 1 or 2A.

Tier 3: Abdul-Jabbar, Ewing, maybe Thurmond . . . great shotblockers, very close to the level 2 guys

Tier 4: Garnett, Giannis . . . great mobility and horizontal defense, not as much of a pure rim protector mentality

Tier 5: Marc Gasol, Draymond Green, Tyson Chandler, maybe Thurmond . . . more positional, less vertical

Not sure how good Nate Thurmond's rim protection actually was. His block numbers would put him in the Tier 2B category but there were more opportunities with the 60s/70s defenses and he seemed to focus more on man defense and less on help defense than Jabbar.

I like the list, but I don't think the description of 2B works well for Duncan in particular.

Agreed. I think Duncan should be in Tier 3 or 4.

I don't think this is what eminence had in his mind writting this post.

[LAL1947]

I like the list, but I don't think the description of 2B works well for Duncan in particular.

Agreed. I think Duncan should be in Tier 3 or 4.

I don't think this is what eminence had in his mind writting this post.

Well, how on earth are you going to move Timmy up instead of down?

The description of 2B says, "more mobile than 2A"... but the word "mobile" is not something I would associate with Timmy, unless I was reaching like a Timmy-lover would. Timmy was too slow and couldn't get off the ground compared to the others listed in Tier 1, Tier 2A or Tier 2B.

Also, some of the discussion has been about how, "Mutombo wasn't able to move away from the basket to threaten the midrange shooter then get back as quickly as the likes of Robinson, Hakeem, Mourning, etc."... which I would agree with, but are we saying that Timmy could do that better than the Mutombo or Gobert (both in 2A of Penbeast0's tiers) or Robinson, Hakeem and Mourning?

[70sFan]

Well, how on earth are you going to move Timmy up instead of down?

Nobody says anything about moving Timmy up and you're the only one who are going to move Timmy down...

The description of 2B says, "more mobile than 2A"... but the word "mobile" is not something I would associate with Timmy, unless I was reaching like a Timmy-lover would. Timmy was too slow and couldn't get off the ground compared to the others listed in Tier 1, Tier 2A or Tier 2B.

So Duncan was slower and couldn't get off the floor as well as Mutombo, Mourning or Gobert?

[penbeast0]

From what I remember, prime Duncan was quicker and more athletic than either Mutombo or Gobert, as was Mourning who is in 2B with Duncan. The difference between the 2 level and the 3 level is small and I could see him slotting into 3 quite comfortably.

[penbeast0]

Since you are including old timers, where's Russell? Wilt?

And, IMO, Olajowon overrated as usual. And Thurmond underrated.

Myles Turner?

The Pacers are the Rodney Dangerfield of the NBA. (Not that millennials will get the reference.)

I'm 90% confident that everyone would rate them #1 and #2 respectively so I didn't even feel the need to include them lol.

I wouldn't rate Wilt #2 (Russell #1, sure) for the same reason I didn't rate Mutombo as high as Hakeem or Drob. He didn't like to move away from the paint area to defend out on the court the way Russell did although near the rim, he may have been the most intimidating shot blocker ever with his height and athleticism.

[LAL1947]

Well, how on earth are you going to move Timmy up instead of down?

Nobody says anything about moving Timmy up and you're the only one who are going to move Timmy down...

The description of 2B says, "more mobile than 2A"... but the word "mobile" is not something I would associate with Timmy, unless I was reaching like a Timmy-lover would. Timmy was too slow and couldn't get off the ground compared to the others listed in Tier 1, Tier 2A or Tier 2B.

So Duncan was slower and couldn't get off the floor as well as Mutombo, Mourning or Gobert?

You really watched Mutombo over at Denver and then thought to yourself, Timmy Duncan is faster and can get off the floor better than that Mutombo? Man, you sure do have some Timmy-tinted sunglasses on. What are you, in love with him or something?

Watch on YouTube

When Mutombo went to Atlanta, he was already 30-31 years old by then, if that's the Mutombo you have in mind. When Timmy was 31yo (2007-08), Kobe was getting by the San Antonio double-teams and team defense, then gleefully skipping past Timmy at Center to lay it in at the rim like as if Timmy were a lamp-post. You're the highlights guy/gal... so why don't you make a compilation of Kobe vs Timmy and then you can properly visualize what I mean.

Here's a little something to help you get started... 9:56 into this vid is an exceptionally good highlight to prove my point. Right before that are also two plays where Kobe shoots over Timmy like he isn't there, just for the lulz.

Watch on YouTube

I'm kinda getting tired of your schtick btw, telling people to ignore me and what not, so I'm going to start giving you schtick for being a Timmy-lover too.

[Jaivl]

he may have been the most intimidating shot blocker ever with his height and athleticism.

Easily.