ice trae- stop sleeping

[dygaction]

Why not on first team...he has consistently been better than any guard at scoring and passing for the entire year? What does he has\ve to do? Honestly - just asking....

If he is 40-50-90 avg 30 points and 10assist? He is scoring more or less shots and making more assist on less TOs to anyone else in the running. What is anyone OBJECTIVELY doing better than him that you have on the first team? Ja and Currys stats are worse and Luka and Hardens stats worse plus they took long sections of the year off to get healthy or in shape...
Just skiing what this man gotta do?

"If he is 40-50-90 avg 30 points and 10assist?" Except he is not doing any of the 5 you listed?
"He is scoring more or less shots and making more assist on less TOs to anyone else in the running." It is either or, CP3 has way better assist to TO, and DeRozan scoring more with less shots. Also you completely ignored rebounding and defense. Trae's OBPM is #4, right along what you are arguing, but BPM after factoring in defense is #16, roughly 3rd team level.
Main reason, it is team winning though. If Hawks is top 3, he is easily in hunting for 1st team.

I said 40 50 90 and 30 and 10 because he is already offensively shooting better, more points, higher FG% and less TOs than Luka- Luka got him in defense and rebounds but Luka shooting more and scoring less than Trae… those are just facts- ja has less assist and less points as well- so why not Trae- what does he have to do honestly for you to see him as first team all nba ? Within reason-

If he had not had a -2.2 DBPM (ranking 181 in nba) and the team did not have to fight for play in games. Basketball is about outscoring the other team, not scoring as many points as possible. Cannot see a reasonable 1st team argument for this season, but I would not be surprised if Trae gets several 1st team votes.

[J_T]

Cannot see a reasonable 1st team argument for this season, but I would not be surprised if Trae gets several 1st team votes.

In other words, he will get first team votes by Hawks homers.

If Trae gets selected into the first team, he would be the worst pick since Kobe was picked in 2012-13. However, to be fair, that season he didn't have strong competition for the spot, except maybe Harden (CP3 was a no brainer). This season there's a lot of solid competition for those 2 guard spots.

[bbalnation]

Isn't trae a net negative defender, in a system that doesn't protect his weaknesses? The individual and team stats point to that conclusion, along with the eye test, and the latest tidbit from Capella (who was talking generally, about the Hawks team: not Trae).

I find it difficult to put a player who struggles that much on the other side of basketball so much on a first All NBA team.

[CobraCommander]

Isn't trae a net negative defender, in a system that doesn't protect his weaknesses? The individual and team stats point to that conclusion, along with the eye test, and the latest tidbit from Capella (who was talking generally, about the Hawks team: not Trae).

I find it difficult to put a player who struggles that much on the other side of basketball so much on a first All NBA team.

So for you Trae has to not only be better than any other guard offensively - which he is - he has to be better defensively. Hope you have the same defenisve focus for all those guys all fighting for all nba spots.

[deb]

Isn't trae a net negative defender, in a system that doesn't protect his weaknesses? The individual and team stats point to that conclusion, along with the eye test, and the latest tidbit from Capella (who was talking generally, about the Hawks team: not Trae).

I find it difficult to put a player who struggles that much on the other side of basketball so much on a first All NBA team.

So for you Trae has to not only be better than any other guard offensively - which he is - he has to be better defensively. Hope you have the same defenisve focus for all those guys all fighting for all nba spots.

No, he has to not be a glaring hole on defense... He's more efficient as doncic offensively, but his counting stats aren't much better. He averages .2 ppg more, .5 apg more and .6 turnover per game less while having 5.4 rbg less and atlanta has 6 losses more than the mavs. Doncic deserves a spot above trae. As for CP and Ja, their reapective teams are much better than trae's.

Don't get me wrong, Trae is great, but in order to overcome his defensive shortcomings to make the first all NBA team, he would either have to be much much better offensively than say doncic, which he isn't, or his team would have to have a record similiar to the suns or grizzlies, which it doesn't...

[leo7]

Trae got snubbed from 3rd team last year over Kyrie. I wouldn't be surprised if he gets snubbed again.

[CobraCommander]

Isn't trae a net negative defender, in a system that doesn't protect his weaknesses? The individual and team stats point to that conclusion, along with the eye test, and the latest tidbit from Capella (who was talking generally, about the Hawks team: not Trae).

I find it difficult to put a player who struggles that much on the other side of basketball so much on a first All NBA team.

So for you Trae has to not only be better than any other guard offensively - which he is - he has to be better defensively. Hope you have the same defenisve focus for all those guys all fighting for all nba spots.

No, he has to not be a glaring hole on defense... He's more efficient as doncic offensively, but his counting stats aren't much better. He averages .2 ppg more, .5 apg more and .6 turnover per game less while having 5.4 rbg less and atlanta has 6 losses more than the mavs. Doncic deserves a spot above trae. As for CP and Ja, their reapective teams are much better than trae's.

Don't get me wrong, Trae is great, but in order to overcome his defensive shortcomings to make the first all NBA team, he would either have to be much much better offensively than say doncic, which he isn't, or his team would have to have a record similiar to the suns or grizzlies, which it doesn't...

I don’t agree about Luka over Trae based solely on team record because Luka has missed a quarter of the games and started slow....while Trae has been consistent- I also think the numbers say Trae is more efficient on offense than Luka... Luka shoots more shots and misses more shots...

but if someone was to give Luka the nod over Trae for defense...I could understand that...but your points not really swaying me to say Luka having a better year than Trae based on record when Luka started slow and mavs won in spite of him and has missed 1/4 of the games.

[CobraCommander]

Trae got snubbed from 3rd team last year over Kyrie. I wouldn't be surprised if he gets snubbed again.

Trae is still getting better...let’s hope he gets rewarded for improving.

[dygaction]

So for you Trae has to not only be better than any other guard offensively - which he is - he has to be better defensively. Hope you have the same defenisve focus for all those guys all fighting for all nba spots.

No, he has to not be a glaring hole on defense... He's more efficient as doncic offensively, but his counting stats aren't much better. He averages .2 ppg more, .5 apg more and .6 turnover per game less while having 5.4 rbg less and atlanta has 6 losses more than the mavs. Doncic deserves a spot above trae. As for CP and Ja, their reapective teams are much better than trae's.

Don't get me wrong, Trae is great, but in order to overcome his defensive shortcomings to make the first all NBA team, he would either have to be much much better offensively than say doncic, which he isn't, or his team would have to have a record similiar to the suns or grizzlies, which it doesn't...

I don’t agree about Luka over Trae based solely on team record because Luka has missed a quarter of the games and started slow....while Trae has been consistent- I also think the numbers say Trae is more efficient on offense than Luka... Luka shoots more shots and misses more shots...

but if someone was to give Luka the nod over Trae for defense...I could understand that...but your points not really swaying me to say Luka having a better year than Trae based on record when Luka started slow and mavs won in spite of him and has missed 1/4 of the games.

A struggling, slow-starting Luka (2021) was bad by his standard but did not mean he was a bad player (25.6/8.0/8.5) though, and Mavs were 12W 9L. They beat TOR/BOS/DEN/LAC/MEM teams. Without Luka, they were 6W 9L (0W 8L against .50 teams). A skinny motivated Luka (2022) has been killing it (29.5/10.1/9.0) and Mavs are 22W7L. The trade of Porzingis for Dinwiddie appears to be a great move and they may get the record even better.
If you project 2022 Luka to 2021, the Mavs could have a top 3 league record easily and he would be undisputed MVP. Starting slow and Mavs record are the reasons he has just came back (since mid Feb? had Curry and Ja ahead earlier) to 1st team discussion and not in serious MVP finalist.

[CobraCommander]

No, he has to not be a glaring hole on defense... He's more efficient as doncic offensively, but his counting stats aren't much better. He averages .2 ppg more, .5 apg more and .6 turnover per game less while having 5.4 rbg less and atlanta has 6 losses more than the mavs. Doncic deserves a spot above trae. As for CP and Ja, their reapective teams are much better than trae's.

Don't get me wrong, Trae is great, but in order to overcome his defensive shortcomings to make the first all NBA team, he would either have to be much much better offensively than say doncic, which he isn't, or his team would have to have a record similiar to the suns or grizzlies, which it doesn't...

I don’t agree about Luka over Trae based solely on team record because Luka has missed a quarter of the games and started slow....while Trae has been consistent- I also think the numbers say Trae is more efficient on offense than Luka... Luka shoots more shots and misses more shots...

but if someone was to give Luka the nod over Trae for defense...I could understand that...but your points not really swaying me to say Luka having a better year than Trae based on record when Luka started slow and mavs won in spite of him and has missed 1/4 of the games.

A struggling, slow-starting Luka (2021) was bad by his standard but did not mean he was a bad player (25.6/8.0/8.5) though, and Mavs were 12W 9L. They beat TOR/BOS/DEN/LAC/MEM teams. Without Luka, they were 6W 9L (0W 8L against .50 teams). A skinny motivated Luka (2022) has been killing it (29.5/10.1/9.0) and Mavs are 22W7L. The trade of Porzingis for Dinwiddie appears to be a great move and they may get the record even better.
If you project 2022 Luka to 2021, the Mavs could have a top 3 league record easily and he would be undisputed MVP. Starting slow and Mavs record are the reasons he has just came back (since mid Feb? had Curry and Ja ahead earlier) to 1st team discussion and not in serious MVP finalist.

Stop with extrapolating out a mvp season based on a small sample size when Giannis, Joker and Embiid been better even over that time frame. Luka just not better than these 3. Luka barely shoots much better than Giannis from 3 lol. Plus if we extrapolate KD the best if he doesn’t have injury time or we could extrapolate Curry’s best months this year and CURRY mvp… Or if we extrapolate Harden…hardens time away from crazy kyrie and with Embiid- Harden is in the MVP contest he is legit better than Luka at everything Luka is a good at…Either way - I’m saying Trae is better offensively than Luka but defensively Luka has Trae. If Trae gets better defensively would you support him over Luka or whomever? Or do you have someone like Luka over him no matter what Trae does?

[dygaction]

I don’t agree about Luka over Trae based solely on team record because Luka has missed a quarter of the games and started slow....while Trae has been consistent- I also think the numbers say Trae is more efficient on offense than Luka... Luka shoots more shots and misses more shots...

but if someone was to give Luka the nod over Trae for defense...I could understand that...but your points not really swaying me to say Luka having a better year than Trae based on record when Luka started slow and mavs won in spite of him and has missed 1/4 of the games.

A struggling, slow-starting Luka (2021) was bad by his standard but did not mean he was a bad player (25.6/8.0/8.5) though, and Mavs were 12W 9L. They beat TOR/BOS/DEN/LAC/MEM teams. Without Luka, they were 6W 9L (0W 8L against .50 teams). A skinny motivated Luka (2022) has been killing it (29.5/10.1/9.0) and Mavs are 22W7L. The trade of Porzingis for Dinwiddie appears to be a great move and they may get the record even better.
If you project 2022 Luka to 2021, the Mavs could have a top 3 league record easily and he would be undisputed MVP. Starting slow and Mavs record are the reasons he has just came back (since mid Feb? had Curry and Ja ahead earlier) to 1st team discussion and not in serious MVP finalist.

Stop with extrapolating out a mvp season based on a small sample size when Giannis, Joker and Embiid been better even over that time frame. Luka just not better than these 3. Luka barely shoots much better than Giannis from 3 lol. Plus if we extrapolate KD the best if he doesn’t have injury time or we could extrapolate Curry’s best months this year and CURRY mvp… Or if we extrapolate Harden…hardens time away from crazy kyrie and with Embiid- Harden is in the MVP contest he is legit better than Luka at everything Luka is a good at…Either way - I’m saying Trae is better offensively than Luka but defensively Luka has Trae. If Trae gets better defensively would you support him over Luka or whomever? Or do you have someone like Luka over him no matter what Trae does?

Do you read? We are saying the same thing, Luka is not in top 3 MVP because of his slow starting. Yes, if Trae can significantly improve his defense, his team will win more games and he will have a higher chance in 1st team all nba, could be next Luka could be next to Luka, but it is not happening this season..

[CobraCommander]

A struggling, slow-starting Luka (2021) was bad by his standard but did not mean he was a bad player (25.6/8.0/8.5) though, and Mavs were 12W 9L. They beat TOR/BOS/DEN/LAC/MEM teams. Without Luka, they were 6W 9L (0W 8L against .50 teams). A skinny motivated Luka (2022) has been killing it (29.5/10.1/9.0) and Mavs are 22W7L. The trade of Porzingis for Dinwiddie appears to be a great move and they may get the record even better.
If you project 2022 Luka to 2021, the Mavs could have a top 3 league record easily and he would be undisputed MVP. Starting slow and Mavs record are the reasons he has just came back (since mid Feb? had Curry and Ja ahead earlier) to 1st team discussion and not in serious MVP finalist.

Stop with extrapolating out a mvp season based on a small sample size when Giannis, Joker and Embiid been better even over that time frame. Luka just not better than these 3. Luka barely shoots much better than Giannis from 3 lol. Plus if we extrapolate KD the best if he doesn’t have injury time or we could extrapolate Curry’s best months this year and CURRY mvp… Or if we extrapolate Harden…hardens time away from crazy kyrie and with Embiid- Harden is in the MVP contest he is legit better than Luka at everything Luka is a good at…Either way - I’m saying Trae is better offensively than Luka but defensively Luka has Trae. If Trae gets better defensively would you support him over Luka or whomever? Or do you have someone like Luka over him no matter what Trae does?

Do you read? We are saying the same thing, Luka is not in top 3 MVP because of his slow starting. Yes, if Trae can significantly improve his defense, his team will win more games and he will have a higher chance in 1st team all nba, could be next Luka could be next to Luka, but it is not happening this season..

Ok im kinda not following you but I Swear I appreciate your post so dont come back firing- (peace at least)
-

From reading what you said in last post you saying, if Traes defense improves he would be better than Luka to you… I think

[dygaction]

Stop with extrapolating out a mvp season based on a small sample size when Giannis, Joker and Embiid been better even over that time frame. Luka just not better than these 3. Luka barely shoots much better than Giannis from 3 lol. Plus if we extrapolate KD the best if he doesn’t have injury time or we could extrapolate Curry’s best months this year and CURRY mvp… Or if we extrapolate Harden…hardens time away from crazy kyrie and with Embiid- Harden is in the MVP contest he is legit better than Luka at everything Luka is a good at…Either way - I’m saying Trae is better offensively than Luka but defensively Luka has Trae. If Trae gets better defensively would you support him over Luka or whomever? Or do you have someone like Luka over him no matter what Trae does?

Do you read? We are saying the same thing, Luka is not in top 3 MVP because of his slow starting. Yes, if Trae can significantly improve his defense, his team will win more games and he will have a higher chance in 1st team all nba, could be next Luka could be next to Luka, but it is not happening this season..

Ok im kinda not following you but I Swear I appreciate your post so dont come back firing- (peace at least)
-

From reading what you said in last post you saying, if Traes defense improves he would be better than Luka to you… I think

Need to improve significantly though. From the glaring hole in defense that is hard to hide to at least slightly positive. They are still both improving at age 23 so we will see.

[CobraCommander]

Do you read? We are saying the same thing, Luka is not in top 3 MVP because of his slow starting. Yes, if Trae can significantly improve his defense, his team will win more games and he will have a higher chance in 1st team all nba, could be next Luka could be next to Luka, but it is not happening this season..

Ok im kinda not following you but I Swear I appreciate your post so dont come back firing- (peace at least)
-

From reading what you said in last post you saying, if Traes defense improves he would be better than Luka to you… I think

Need to improve significantly though. From the glaring hole in defense that is hard to hide to at least slightly positive. They are still both improving at age 23 so we will see.

Defense is going to be hard to improve upon tho...Trae small...and the team has to have a defensive scheme.

Luka has improved on D but unless he shoots better shots and gets his % up and limits his TOs he won’t get better offensively but if he keeps getting better defensively it’s gonna be tough for the league.

I think Trae deserves some first team all nba votes for being in top 5 in offensive stats plus his FG% plus WS say he is a top player...but I respect that people think his defense is costing his team games...more games than they winning. Funny that people want Luka to get better team mates but Lukas team mates better than Traes and no one giving Trae a pass

[bbalnation]

Ok im kinda not following you but I Swear I appreciate your post so dont come back firing- (peace at least)
-

From reading what you said in last post you saying, if Traes defense improves he would be better than Luka to you… I think

Need to improve significantly though. From the glaring hole in defense that is hard to hide to at least slightly positive. They are still both improving at age 23 so we will see.

Defense is going to be hard to improve upon tho...Trae small...and the team has to have a defensive scheme.

Luka has improved on D but unless he shoots better shots and gets his % up and limits his TOs he won’t get better offensively but if he keeps getting better defensively it’s gonna be tough for the league.

I think Trae deserves some first team all nba votes for being in top 5 in offensive stats plus his FG% plus WS say he is a top player...but I respect that people think his defense is costing his team games...more games than they winning. Funny that people want Luka to get better team mates but Lukas team mates better than Traes and no one giving Trae a pass

What makes you definitively say that Lukas supporting cast is and has been better better than Traes?

Traes team was on an ECF last season. I dont know what you can qualitatively or quantitatively say about a lot of Lukas teammates right now: and I'm a fan of both Spencer and KPs games.

My issue with overlooking defense in this context is when it is indeed costing teams wins. And imo, the way he defends is a liability, and I dont like the idea of awarding it with first team all nba it until his team secures a lot of victories (like they did last year).

[CobraCommander]

Need to improve significantly though. From the glaring hole in defense that is hard to hide to at least slightly positive. They are still both improving at age 23 so we will see.

Defense is going to be hard to improve upon tho...Trae small...and the team has to have a defensive scheme.

Luka has improved on D but unless he shoots better shots and gets his % up and limits his TOs he won’t get better offensively but if he keeps getting better defensively it’s gonna be tough for the league.

I think Trae deserves some first team all nba votes for being in top 5 in offensive stats plus his FG% plus WS say he is a top player...but I respect that people think his defense is costing his team games...more games than they winning. Funny that people want Luka to get better team mates but Lukas team mates better than Traes and no one giving Trae a pass

What makes you definitively say that Lukas supporting cast is and has been better better than Traes?

Traes team was on an ECF last season. I dont know what you can qualitatively or quantitatively say about a lot of Lukas teammates right now: and I'm a fan of both Spencer and KPs games.

My issue with overlooking defense in this context is when it is indeed costing teams wins. And imo, the way he defends is a liability, and I dont like the idea of awarding it with first team all nba it until his team secures a lot of victories (like they did last year).

I watch the hawks...they just don’t play good ball - they are some how lesser than even their parts- Trae is dragging those guys along

[bbalnation]

Defense is going to be hard to improve upon tho...Trae small...and the team has to have a defensive scheme.

Luka has improved on D but unless he shoots better shots and gets his % up and limits his TOs he won’t get better offensively but if he keeps getting better defensively it’s gonna be tough for the league.

I think Trae deserves some first team all nba votes for being in top 5 in offensive stats plus his FG% plus WS say he is a top player...but I respect that people think his defense is costing his team games...more games than they winning. Funny that people want Luka to get better team mates but Lukas team mates better than Traes and no one giving Trae a pass

What makes you definitively say that Lukas supporting cast is and has been better better than Traes?

Traes team was on an ECF last season. I dont know what you can qualitatively or quantitatively say about a lot of Lukas teammates right now: and I'm a fan of both Spencer and KPs games.

My issue with overlooking defense in this context is when it is indeed costing teams wins. And imo, the way he defends is a liability, and I dont like the idea of awarding it with first team all nba it until his team secures a lot of victories (like they did last year).

I watch the hawks...they just don’t play good ball - they are some how lesser than even their parts- Trae is dragging those guys along

Thats not an answer that I can go with.

There are many that watch the Hawks that disagree with you, that have the stats to also back up the claim that Trae indeed does carry the offensive load, but is a large defensive liability for his team (for now), and does not deserve to be on an NBA First team relative to his peers, sitting at 10th in the East (and costing his team some buckets on the other side, like many of his superstar peers: but their teams are getting wins rn).

[leo7]

Hawks have a good chance to make it to 7th seed or 6th depending on how the Cavs play without Allen.
Do you guys think Trae will at least make the all NBA 3rd team this year if the hawks get 6th or 7th seed?

[dygaction]

Hawks have a good chance to make it to 7th seed or 6th depending on how the Cavs play without Allen.
Do you guys think Trae will at least make the all NBA 3rd team this year if the hawks get 6th or 7th seed?

3rd team sure, even 2nd team possible. In my opinion Luka/Ja/Curry/DeRozan (if in guard)/CP3 or Booker are all at least slightly ahead, but getting the team to 6 is almost impossible unless Trae goes god mode, then sure he can be in 2nd team.
Cleveland 37w-27l. Atlanta 31w-32l.
If Cavs go 9w-9l for the rest, they will win 46 games, meaning Hawks need to go at least 15w-4l.

[CobraCommander]

Hawks have a good chance to make it to 7th seed or 6th depending on how the Cavs play without Allen.
Do you guys think Trae will at least make the all NBA 3rd team this year if the hawks get 6th or 7th seed?

3rd team sure, even 2nd team possible. In my opinion Luka/Ja/Curry/DeRozan (if in guard)/CP3 or Booker are all at least slightly ahead, but getting the team to 6 is almost impossible unless Trae goes god mode, then sure he can be in 2nd team.
Cleveland 37w-27l. Atlanta 31w-32l.
If Cavs go 9w-9l for the rest, they will win 46 games, meaning Hawks need to go at least 15w-4l.

Fair assessment- I think Hawks need to get a different coach that will prioritize a defensive scheme that makes Trae less of a liability like the warriors did and allows him to contribute to the defense in ways that he can like Dallas did with Luka. Defense isn’t all effort it’s team scheme too.