Official Scottie Barnes Thread 2

[vulture]

Both rookies played well but the narrative was already set by just listening to the ESPN broadcast that it's Mobley's award to lose. He would have to get injured to lose.

[Raps in 4]

Both rookies played well but the narrative was already set by just listening to the ESPN broadcast that it's Mobley's award to lose. He would have to get injured to lose.

Mobley deserves it.

[vulture]

Both rookies played well but the narrative was already set by just listening to the ESPN broadcast that it's Mobley's award to lose. He would have to get injured to lose.

Mobley deserves it.

There is no doubt he does, but there is not a gap between the 2 guys imo. Mobley is better defensively and Scottie is better offensively.

[Reeko]

Both rookies played well but the narrative was already set by just listening to the ESPN broadcast that it's Mobley's award to lose. He would have to get injured to lose.

Mobley deserves it.

You can say the same thing about Scottie, but can you imagine what kind of numbers Mobley would be putting up if he were on the Pistons or Rockets? From the game last night it was pretty clear that he holds back his own game for the sake of playing team ball.

[will]

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Both teams played hard, my man

[OakleyDokely]

Both rookies played well but the narrative was already set by just listening to the ESPN broadcast that it's Mobley's award to lose. He would have to get injured to lose.

Mobley deserves it.

You can say the same thing about Scottie, but can you imagine what kind of numbers Mobley would be putting up if he were on the Pistons or Rockets? From the game last night it was pretty clear that he holds back his own game for the sake of playing team ball.

He probably would put up bigger raw scoring numbers, but I think his efficiency would take a hit on a tanking team. He's playing a very structured role on a team with good talent around him, including an allstar level C and G. If he was asked to create more of his own offense, it would be a lot harder for him to replicate the same efficiency.

[HumbleRen]

It’s honestly just hard to beat Mobley’s defence.

There’s a considerable gap there even if Scottie is obviously the better offensive player.

[HumbleRen]

It’s also funny how everyone laughed at Cleveland for picking Mobley because of how bad the fit we all thought it would be. Turns out it was the place for him and his skill set.

While Barnes is arguably in on a bad roster in terms of roster construction. 0 spacing and no real floor manager to help him get easy buckets.

[OakleyDokely]

It’s honestly just hard to beat Mobley’s defence.

There’s a considerable gap there even if Scottie is obviously the better offensive player.

Imagine if Mobley was asked to guard 1-5 relatively equally all season (including elite wings like Tatum, Doncic, Beal) without Allen behind him. That's what Scottie's been doing all year.

Not saying Mobley hasn't been great in his role, but he hasn't been used like Scottie. Very few players in the entire NBA period have been used like Scottie defensively.

[Vampirate]

When Nurse said he planned on giving Barnes plenty of burn at the beginning of the year he wasn't kidding lol.

[OakleyDokely]

Top 10 players who've attempted most FGs against Barnes:

Bam
Middleton
Durant
DeMar
Doncic
Tatum
Beal
Vucevic
Mobley
Herro/Hunter

Top 10 players who've attempted most FGs against Mobley:

Kuzma
Bridges
Bagley
Barnes
Capela
K Johnson
Harrell
Morant
Gafford
Jackson Jr

[Raps in 4]

It’s also funny how everyone laughed at Cleveland for picking Mobley because of how bad the fit we all thought it would be. Turns out it was the place for him and his skill set.

While Barnes is arguably in on a bad roster in terms of roster construction. 0 spacing and no real floor manager to help him get easy buckets.

He was the clear BPA. People just thought they'd need to trade Allen.

[Madhouse]

It’s honestly just hard to beat Mobley’s defence.

There’s a considerable gap there even if Scottie is obviously the better offensive player.

Imagine if Mobley was asked to guard 1-5 relatively equally all season (including elite wings like Tatum, Doncic, Beal) without Allen behind him. That's what Scottie's been doing all year.

Not saying Mobley hasn't been great in his role, but he hasn't been used like Scottie. Very few players in the entire NBA period have been used like Scottie defensively.

He's probably the most versatile or at least one of the most versatile defenders.

According to crafted NBA he is tied for 2nd most versatile defender in the NBA along with Paul George.

99/100 versatility.

It's a good thing for the future. Once he really locks down on the fundamentals on defense, he will be a chess piece on defense.

[HumbleRen]

It’s honestly just hard to beat Mobley’s defence.

There’s a considerable gap there even if Scottie is obviously the better offensive player.

Imagine if Mobley was asked to guard 1-5 relatively equally all season (including elite wings like Tatum, Doncic, Beal) without Allen behind him. That's what Scottie's been doing all year.

Not saying Mobley hasn't been great in his role, but he hasn't been used like Scottie. Very few players in the entire NBA period have been used like Scottie defensively.

It’s definitely a testament to Barnes capabilities but he’s still a neutral defender at best in terms of his defence. Which is great for a rookie.

Mobley is other worldly, he’s 6th in the nba in blocks. Top 5 in opposing team FG percentage against him at the rim.

Being elite in those defensive situations is way more valuable than being able to switch from 1-5.

[Tha Cynic]

Mobley was contesting shots left and right (held us to 6/13 at the rim) which had a notable impact on Siakam's game in particular; he had three buckets on Mobley all game and two were jumpers in the 4th while the other would have been an offensive foul if not for the challenge.

Scottie did a lot of great things tonight, but his defence left a lot to be desired. He contested 3 shots all game and his assignments shot 10/16 for the night -- mostly off of unnecessary overhelping and doubling in the first half.

Strictly looking at +/- in a single game like tonight (like a few people pointed out) where one team's bench scored 29 more points isn't a very good barometer for impact. Overall, both of their impacts were very high and they were arguably the two best players on the court though. I think Scottie's floor game pushed him over Mobley a bit, but I can see the argument for Mobley. 20/17/4/3 on 9/15 shooting while being a rim-protecting force is nothing to sneeze about lol.

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Man you guys are tough lol. You would think we were talking about Lebron James the way your expectations of Scottie Barnes are lol. How do you find so many ways to criticize a guy who clearly was this team's best player last night and matched Mobley in every sense of the word.

You pulled stats about Mobley at the rim and completely ignore that the Raptors had zero shooting. What did that do to Siakam and Barnes' games inside? Siakam never went against just one defender - the entire paint was packed all night. Same for Barnes. Barnes still managed to put up a great shooting night. Barnes had a much more impressive offensive line considering the roster he played with. Mobley is clearly a better defensive player right now, but there was nothing exceptional last night that made him any better than Barnes. I've said this before and I'll say it again - you can't just pull basic stats without asking why certain stats are happening. It's ludicrous that you can give so much credit to Mobley for a team defense and completely downplay what Barnes did.

As for the overhelping it would really help to understand what the Raptors coaching staff wants. Nurse's defense isn't the basic defense we're all used to. The entire team overhelps on every play - it's not just Barnes. The only reason why we see Barnes more is because he's the most active on defense on this team.

Both rookies played great. One wasn't better than the other. You have to look at what is being asked of from Barnes and realize how impressive it is what he's achieving right now.

Both rookies created most of their own offence (and Scottie created offence for others extremely effectively with 6 AST and 0 TOV while Mobley had 4 AST and 4 TOV), both dominated the glass (Mobley had 7 OREB and 10 DREB while Scottie had 4 OREB and 8 DREB) and both had some defensive highlights (Scottie had 3 STL while Mobley had 3 BLK). The main differences were that Mobley turned the ball over a bit while Scottie was getting burned on the defensive end pretty frequently (Wade blowing by him for a dunk, losing Mobley in transition because he was ball-watching and Markkanen and Osman hitting a couple wide open threes each when he was in no man's land come to mind).

Despite all of that, like I said in my first post, I still think Scottie was slightly better than Mobley. I can see the argument for people thinking otherwise though. Cool your jets lol. You'd think I said Scottie was bad or something and not that he was arguably the most impactful player on the floor last night alongside Mobley.

My question is why are you finding individual plays and picking apart one or two plays for one player and not the other, and using that as a reason why one outplayed the other? You can do that for every player in the NBA on every play and find something off. No one is going to be perfect like that, and each team plays a different style of game and team defense. When someone has a good game, it's just a good game. If we want to go over every single possession and dissect each team's schemes and what their player did in each of their schemes, then good luck with that. There was zero reason to downplay anything with Barnes yesterday. You would think Mobley somehow outplayed Barnes with the way 2 plays were picked apart, and your post was in response to someone asking how Mobley outplayed him.

Nick Nurse wants his players to get up into players btw. Barnes is doing what he's being asked to do on defense. That's how the Raptors play. That's why you even see guys like OG and Fred being left in the dust and then you see scrambling defense. This defense isn't anything new, and something that takes a long time to master. We've seen this from the moment Nurse took over. Also Barnes is never in no man's land. The only times somebody gets an open shot is when the other team swings it. I'm not sure how you miss that Barnes is typically covering 2 or 3 guys at once with how the Raptors play switching recovering defense. The team will always be out of position because that's the defense they play. Watch anyone on the Raptors when the opposing team has the ball. They all run towards the initiator regardless of who they are covering. That's the reason the Pistons always destroy them. They know exactly what the Raptors will do. Barnes is also easily the most active defender on the team other than maybe Boucher when he's on the court.

"Barnes' defense left a lot to be desired" is just incorrect. Barnes and the Raptors play a different style of defense than the Cavs do. Mobley sits back and waits for someone to run into his length. He's not being asked to switch and recover on every player on the court. My issue is when people use stats but don't look at the entire play and difference in styles by teams. This defense will allow players to drive, and it will lead to open corner 3s.

Mobley is easily the better defender - there's zero arguments there. Overall last game, each player was as good as the other. You can see that Barnes is going to be a much more impactful offensive player, while Mobley is going to be a much more impactful defensive player.

[Madhouse]

It’s honestly just hard to beat Mobley’s defence.

There’s a considerable gap there even if Scottie is obviously the better offensive player.

Imagine if Mobley was asked to guard 1-5 relatively equally all season (including elite wings like Tatum, Doncic, Beal) without Allen behind him. That's what Scottie's been doing all year.

Not saying Mobley hasn't been great in his role, but he hasn't been used like Scottie. Very few players in the entire NBA period have been used like Scottie defensively.

It’s definitely a testament to Barnes capabilities but he’s still a neutral defender at best in terms of his defence. Which is great for a rookie.

Mobley is other worldly, he’s 6th in the nba in blocks. Top 5 in opposing team FG percentage against him at the rim.

Being elite in those defensive situations is way more valuable than being able to switch from 1-5.

He is already positive impact defender. Coupled with his versatility it's quite good.

Opponents are shooting 5.3% worse against him than their average within 6 feet to the basket and he is contesting 42% of shots at the rim which rates 77/100 and 91/100 respectively in the league, so well above average post defense. Perimeter defense is what he needs to work on most.

[HumbleRen]

Imagine if Mobley was asked to guard 1-5 relatively equally all season (including elite wings like Tatum, Doncic, Beal) without Allen behind him. That's what Scottie's been doing all year.

Not saying Mobley hasn't been great in his role, but he hasn't been used like Scottie. Very few players in the entire NBA period have been used like Scottie defensively.

It’s definitely a testament to Barnes capabilities but he’s still a neutral defender at best in terms of his defence. Which is great for a rookie.

Mobley is other worldly, he’s 6th in the nba in blocks. Top 5 in opposing team FG percentage against him at the rim.

Being elite in those defensive situations is way more valuable than being able to switch from 1-5.

He is already positive impact defender. Coupled with his versatility it's quite good.

Opponents are shooting 5.3% worse against him than their average within 6 feet to the basket and he is contesting 42% of shots at the rim which rates 77/100 and 91/100 respectively in the league, so well above average post defense. Perimeter defense is what he needs to work on most.

Individual defence sure but team defence, which our team is heavily dependent on is very suspect.

[pingpongrac]

Man you guys are tough lol. You would think we were talking about Lebron James the way your expectations of Scottie Barnes are lol. How do you find so many ways to criticize a guy who clearly was this team's best player last night and matched Mobley in every sense of the word.

You pulled stats about Mobley at the rim and completely ignore that the Raptors had zero shooting. What did that do to Siakam and Barnes' games inside? Siakam never went against just one defender - the entire paint was packed all night. Same for Barnes. Barnes still managed to put up a great shooting night. Barnes had a much more impressive offensive line considering the roster he played with. Mobley is clearly a better defensive player right now, but there was nothing exceptional last night that made him any better than Barnes. I've said this before and I'll say it again - you can't just pull basic stats without asking why certain stats are happening. It's ludicrous that you can give so much credit to Mobley for a team defense and completely downplay what Barnes did.

As for the overhelping it would really help to understand what the Raptors coaching staff wants. Nurse's defense isn't the basic defense we're all used to. The entire team overhelps on every play - it's not just Barnes. The only reason why we see Barnes more is because he's the most active on defense on this team.

Both rookies played great. One wasn't better than the other. You have to look at what is being asked of from Barnes and realize how impressive it is what he's achieving right now.

Both rookies created most of their own offence (and Scottie created offence for others extremely effectively with 6 AST and 0 TOV while Mobley had 4 AST and 4 TOV), both dominated the glass (Mobley had 7 OREB and 10 DREB while Scottie had 4 OREB and 8 DREB) and both had some defensive highlights (Scottie had 3 STL while Mobley had 3 BLK). The main differences were that Mobley turned the ball over a bit while Scottie was getting burned on the defensive end pretty frequently (Wade blowing by him for a dunk, losing Mobley in transition because he was ball-watching and Markkanen and Osman hitting a couple wide open threes each when he was in no man's land come to mind).

Despite all of that, like I said in my first post, I still think Scottie was slightly better than Mobley. I can see the argument for people thinking otherwise though. Cool your jets lol. You'd think I said Scottie was bad or something and not that he was arguably the most impactful player on the floor last night alongside Mobley.

My question is why are you finding individual plays and picking apart one or two plays for one player and not the other, and using that as a reason why one outplayed the other? You can do that for every player in the NBA on every play and find something off. No one is going to be perfect like that, and each team plays a different style of game and team defense. When someone has a good game, it's just a good game. If we want to go over every single possession and dissect each team's schemes and what their player did in each of their schemes, then good luck with that. There was zero reason to downplay anything with Barnes yesterday. You would think Mobley somehow outplayed Barnes with the way 2 plays were picked apart, and your post was in response to someone asking how Mobley outplayed him.

Nick Nurse wants his players to get up into players btw. Barnes is doing what he's being asked to do on defense. That's how the Raptors play. That's why you even see guys like OG and Fred being left in the dust and then you see scrambling defense. This defense isn't anything new, and something that takes a long time to master. We've seen this from the moment Nurse took over. Also Barnes is never in no man's land. The only times somebody gets an open shot is when the other team swings it. I'm not sure how you miss that Barnes is typically covering 2 or 3 guys at once with how the Raptors play switching recovering defense. The team will always be out of position because that's the defense they play. Watch anyone on the Raptors when the opposing team has the ball. They all run towards the initiator regardless of who they are covering. That's the reason the Pistons always destroy them. They know exactly what the Raptors will do. Barnes is also easily the most active defender on the team other than maybe Boucher when he's on the court.

"Barnes' defense left a lot to be desired" is just incorrect. Barnes and the Raptors play a different style of defense than the Cavs do. Mobley sits back and waits for someone to run into his length. He's not being asked to switch and recover on every player on the court. My issue is when people use stats but don't look at the entire play and difference in styles by teams. This defense will allow players to drive, and it will lead to open corner 3s.

Mobley is easily the better defender - there's zero arguments there. Overall last game, each player was as good as the other. You can see that Barnes is going to be a much more impactful offensive player, while Mobley is going to be a much more impactful defensive player.

I was picking apart a few plays from Scottie because I am a Raptors fan first and foremost, so I naturally pay a bit more attention to how our own players are performing. The plays I highlighted were also very noticeable mistakes that he was getting picked on during the broadcast too. Obviously no one is going to be perfect, but Scottie seemingly made more defensive mistakes than anyone else on the team and his assignments were 7/8 at the rim in large part due to second chance points and blowbys. Part of that is due to the fact that he played the most minutes last night and he was guarding a variety of Cavs, but his defensive effort wasn't very high for large portions of the game, especially in the first half.

I felt that Scottie was pretty frequently in no man's land in the first half last night. There were 4 or 5 possessions in a 5-minute span in Q1 where he was caught between guarding 2 Cavs on a switch. It's not fair to put the blame solely on Scottie for a defensive miscommunication, but it starts to stand out a bit when it happens multiple times with different teammates in such a short window (GTJ, Siakam and Birch). There were also quite a few open threes attempted in those first 24 minutes that were the result of Scottie unnecessarily coming over to help. I know it is part of the defensive system and we often see Boucher/Siakam/OG packing the paint then flying by shooters on the perimeter too, but a lot of those instances last night weren't the right play. Why is he doubling Mobley on a contested drive to the rim when Osman is wide open in the corner? Why is he chasing an already covered Osman on the perimeter and leaving Markkanen wide open above the break? Why is he overcommitting on an Okoro drive that is already defended by Siakam with Achiuwa right under the rim to help as well while Markkanen is wide open above the break again? Those plays all happened in a 5-minute span in Q2 and it led to 9 Cleveland points.

Scottie's defence was much better in the second half aside from a couple miscues that I mentioned in my other post, but overall it looked like Mobley had a significantly larger defensive impact while Scottie struggled early on. The stats back that up too; Scottie's assignments shot 63% while the rest of the team outside of Birch held the Cavs to 50% or below (Boucher was a beast FWIW). Mobley holding us to 6/13 inside was a big reason why we only scored 52 paint points in a game where we relentlessly attacked the rim. As I said earlier in this post though, I'm a Raptors fan that pays more attention to our own players. I'm sure if someone dug into Mobley's defence last night there would also be some notable defensive errors.

I agree with your last paragraph. They had similar games last night. As we've seen all season, Scottie has the skills to be a very impactful offensive player (playmaking and scoring touch inside coupled with size/length and strength) and he has the tools to be a very good defender (size/length and IQ). Mobley is a bit of the opposite and looks to be more of a DPOY + 2nd/3rd option whereas Scottie looks like he could develop into an offensive hub as soon as year 3 or 4.

[WuTang_CMB]

Mobley likely wins it unless Raps can get on a roll here to close out the season and he puts up 16pts+ 7reb+ and good defense

[Madhouse]

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