Warriors select Jonathan Kuminga with the 7th pick of the 2021 NBA Draft

[Big J]

The problem with Wiseman as a defender is that he is never going to be able to hang with guards on the perimeter 1 on 1 after a switch because he doesn't have the foot speed or coordination to do it. If we try playing him in the playoffs against a Luka type he will get absolutely roasted over and over just like Zubac did last year.

[Duke4life831]

One big difference though with Kuminga when it comes to hiding him on the defensive end. One way they can hide him is to play him on the ball. Even at 19 he's not a bad on ball defender. The bad defense comes from rotations and everything like that.

There are other things that people like myself (big Kuminga guy, big anti Wiseman guy) are going off of though. First I think its very dumb to draft bigs like Wiseman that early in the draft. So just waisting an early pick on him is a negative in my opinion. I would have different thoughts on Wiseman if he was picked up late 1st for example, because the expectations from many on him would be very different.

I have no issue taking a raw athletic wing early in the draft compared to a raw guy who is locked in at the 5 spot. Because again hiding very bad defensive 5s is a much bigger challenge than hiding an athletic wing who is bad defensively. And in a perimeter oriented NBA, give me the raw perimeter guy vs the raw low post guy.

Because again my biggest pushback with the Wiseman pick is its kind of the definition of trying to fit a square peg in a round hole. All of Wiseman's biggest weaknesses are pretty much exactly what GS looks for in their 5s. Smart good defensive 5s that play within the flow of the offense and a huge plus if they're a positive passer. That right there would be the opposite way to describe Wiseman coming into the NBA draft. He's a bad defensive 5 that has always been a low post dominant guy who has been a black hole offensively. That was Wiseman coming into the draft.

I just think a player like Kuminga is easier to bring along and has the higher upside.

My problem with this stance is it looks at Wiseman through a Warriors-only lens, and not Kuminga. Are we talking about their impact as Warriors, or overall?

Because I'll ask - how do you hide a 3, a 4, or a 5 in our system? You say its easier to hide a perimeter player... sure, we can hide one. And its always been a guard, never a forward. I dont think its possible. If it is, we have not done it in 9 years of Mike Malone/Ron Adams systems, and we seem to place a lot of importance on a player being a defender if they are a 3-4-5 that isn't earmarked for a limited reserve role.

I'll also challenge the idea that Wiseman was a bad defender before coming here. He wasn't, he was actually excellent in HS (easy, I know) and very good in very limited Memphis showings. He just has never had to switch as much as we do here, and neither has Kuminga. And actually unlike Kuminga, Wiseman understood the defense - he was just understanding it too slow. He'd miss a mark, or a switch, recover late... Kuminga just misses it. Offensively, Kuminga is definitely the superior fit, but again, he's being put in the same situation as Wiseman was, except that it caters to Kuminga. We gave Wiseman the ball 20 feet away from the rim and iso'd a side for him, on average 1.2 times per game (in a way that ended the possession - I'm sure it was more than that). What were we expecting to happen? He's never been a shot creator, he's only been a good passer from the post. We never ran him on the top block where he actually had experience.. he really was given absolutely no chance to succeed barring him being a generational talent.

So I dont think youre being fair to Wiseman, considering Kuminga is showing arguably worse defensive instincts in our system, and has actually had a worse overall rating since Dray left than Wiseman did last season. The tracking stats make it *really* hard to forgive one and not the other. Both should be considered very high upside players that will need to learn our defensive system if they want to be long-term starters. If neither does show defensive chops, at least for this system... are either of them starters?

But he wasn't. He had the "Defensive potential" tag on him, actually very similar to Kumigna. Kuminga because of his athleticism and measurements was viewed as a guy with high defensive potential, but not actual good defensive production. Pretty much almost every scouting report on Wiseman said the same thing about his defense. He is a good shot blocker, but there are a ton of holes in his defensive game. He gets lost on PnRs, is not a good defender when he gets switched out on the perimeter, has bad defensive awareness and so on. This is was all well known about him prior to going to Memphis. Again the two biggest weaknesses attributed to Wiseman coming out of high school was that outside of blocking shots he was a bad defender and he was a black hole offensively.

And yes its always easier to hide a perimeter player than it is to hide a 5. You cant hide bad 5s in the NBA on the defensive end. Every offense can single out a bad defensive 5 and take advantage of it, especially if its a 5 that has really bad defensive awareness. Its far easier to hide a bad perimeter defender (especially ones with Kuminga's size) on the worst perimeter player on the opposing teams. And in player's like Kumigna, another way to hide their bad team defense is to put them on the ball as much as possible.

And Im talking both overall and for the Warriors. I think its a waist to spend a lotto pick on a big like Wiseman. This also isnt some thing I have only against Wiseman. Ive made this point on the Draft board over and over again for players like him.

Im much more willing to look past the negatives on Kuminga's defense because I think they're more fixable because again no matter what he will have less responsibility on that end. And I can point to far more raw athletic wings who were bad defenders early on, who became good defenders, than I can point to really bad 5s that ended up being good defenders.

[EvanZ]

I didn't see it before but I had been told Jeff Green was a good Kuminga comp. Watching Green the other night in Denver with Kuminga on the court I kind of saw what he was talking about. I actually didn't ever realize how explosive Green is (even at age 34!). But he had so many other issues with his game he never really put it all together. Hopefully JK does put it all together.

[FNQ]

One big difference though with Kuminga when it comes to hiding him on the defensive end. One way they can hide him is to play him on the ball. Even at 19 he's not a bad on ball defender. The bad defense comes from rotations and everything like that.

There are other things that people like myself (big Kuminga guy, big anti Wiseman guy) are going off of though. First I think its very dumb to draft bigs like Wiseman that early in the draft. So just waisting an early pick on him is a negative in my opinion. I would have different thoughts on Wiseman if he was picked up late 1st for example, because the expectations from many on him would be very different.

I have no issue taking a raw athletic wing early in the draft compared to a raw guy who is locked in at the 5 spot. Because again hiding very bad defensive 5s is a much bigger challenge than hiding an athletic wing who is bad defensively. And in a perimeter oriented NBA, give me the raw perimeter guy vs the raw low post guy.

Because again my biggest pushback with the Wiseman pick is its kind of the definition of trying to fit a square peg in a round hole. All of Wiseman's biggest weaknesses are pretty much exactly what GS looks for in their 5s. Smart good defensive 5s that play within the flow of the offense and a huge plus if they're a positive passer. That right there would be the opposite way to describe Wiseman coming into the NBA draft. He's a bad defensive 5 that has always been a low post dominant guy who has been a black hole offensively. That was Wiseman coming into the draft.

I just think a player like Kuminga is easier to bring along and has the higher upside.

My problem with this stance is it looks at Wiseman through a Warriors-only lens, and not Kuminga. Are we talking about their impact as Warriors, or overall?

Because I'll ask - how do you hide a 3, a 4, or a 5 in our system? You say its easier to hide a perimeter player... sure, we can hide one. And its always been a guard, never a forward. I dont think its possible. If it is, we have not done it in 9 years of Mike Malone/Ron Adams systems, and we seem to place a lot of importance on a player being a defender if they are a 3-4-5 that isn't earmarked for a limited reserve role.

I'll also challenge the idea that Wiseman was a bad defender before coming here. He wasn't, he was actually excellent in HS (easy, I know) and very good in very limited Memphis showings. He just has never had to switch as much as we do here, and neither has Kuminga. And actually unlike Kuminga, Wiseman understood the defense - he was just understanding it too slow. He'd miss a mark, or a switch, recover late... Kuminga just misses it. Offensively, Kuminga is definitely the superior fit, but again, he's being put in the same situation as Wiseman was, except that it caters to Kuminga. We gave Wiseman the ball 20 feet away from the rim and iso'd a side for him, on average 1.2 times per game (in a way that ended the possession - I'm sure it was more than that). What were we expecting to happen? He's never been a shot creator, he's only been a good passer from the post. We never ran him on the top block where he actually had experience.. he really was given absolutely no chance to succeed barring him being a generational talent.

So I dont think youre being fair to Wiseman, considering Kuminga is showing arguably worse defensive instincts in our system, and has actually had a worse overall rating since Dray left than Wiseman did last season. The tracking stats make it *really* hard to forgive one and not the other. Both should be considered very high upside players that will need to learn our defensive system if they want to be long-term starters. If neither does show defensive chops, at least for this system... are either of them starters?

But he wasn't. He had the "Defensive potential" tag on him, actually very similar to Kumigna. Kuminga because of his athleticism and measurements was viewed as a guy with high defensive potential, but not actual good defensive production. Pretty much almost every scouting report on Wiseman said the same thing about his defense. He is a good shot blocker, but there are a ton of holes in his defensive game. He gets lost on PnRs, is not a good defender when he gets switched out on the perimeter, has bad defensive awareness and so on. This is was all well known about him prior to going to Memphis. Again the two biggest weaknesses attributed to Wiseman coming out of high school was that outside of blocking shots he was a bad defender and he was a black hole offensively.

And yes its always easier to hide a perimeter player than it is to hide a 5. You cant hide bad 5s in the NBA on the defensive end. Every offense can single out a bad defensive 5 and take advantage of it, especially if its a 5 that has really bad defensive awareness. Its far easier to hide a bad perimeter defender (especially ones with Kuminga's size) on the worst perimeter player on the opposing teams. And in player's like Kumigna, another way to hide their bad team defense is to put them on the ball as much as possible.

And Im talking both overall and for the Warriors. I think its a waist to spend a lotto pick on a big like Wiseman. This also isnt some thing I have only against Wiseman. Ive made this point on the Draft board over and over again for players like him.

Im much more willing to look past the negatives on Kuminga's defense because I think they're more fixable because again no matter what he will have less responsibility on that end. And I can point to far more raw athletic wings who were bad defenders early on, who became good defenders, than I can point to really bad 5s that ended up being good defenders.

No.. he was. Defensive potential was the tag because he only had 3 college games. In those 3 college games he was a defensive stalwart. And that's not similar to Kuminga at all, who was a bad defender in the GL. Again, context has to be given: 3 games in college vs. a thrown together team of guys trying to raise their own stock. But its not that he wasnt a good defender in his college games. He was borderline lockdown.

As far as what draftniks said, I dont know how they'd know considering he had literally all of 4 PnR opportunities on defense in college, and the best scenario was 1 resulting in FTs. He had 9 perimeter defensive opportunities, where again he allowed 0.44 PPP. Like I'm looking at the Synergy numbers here right now. If they are talking about in HS, sure, but thats particularly weird because his draft notes from Synergy specifically mention that his HS team played him as a center in zone, and that his perimeter defense was an unknown because of it. Which draft sites talked about his PnR? He only had 1 instance with USA basketball there too.. There's just nothing to base any of this on, and I feel like Synergy is the most comprehensive about this kinda thing.

You keep saying its easier to hide a perimeter player than a 5. OK. Done. I asked you specifically how do you hide Kuminga? Because we've literally never been able to hide anyone besides the person playing PG, and the solution is to usually have the 2 or the 3 absorb the even tougher defensive assignment. I'm still asking - how do we hide Kuminga? How do you hide his bad rotations (which again are worse than Wiseman's) but are unable to hide Wiseman's?

[Big J]

I didn't see it before but I had been told Jeff Green was a good Kuminga comp. Watching Green the other night in Denver with Kuminga on the court I kind of saw what he was talking about. I actually didn't ever realize how explosive Green is (even at age 34!). But he had so many other issues with his game he never really put it all together. Hopefully JK does put it all together.

Jeff Green **** sucks ass. Kuminga is already better than he ever was.

[tarantism]

I didn't see it before but I had been told Jeff Green was a good Kuminga comp. Watching Green the other night in Denver with Kuminga on the court I kind of saw what he was talking about. I actually didn't ever realize how explosive Green is (even at age 34!). But he had so many other issues with his game he never really put it all together. Hopefully JK does put it all together.

Jeff Green **** sucks ass. Kuminga is already better than he ever was.

Nothing personal but I hate statements like this. It's one of the reasons I can't stand Chris Vernon. You don't stick around for 15 or so years in the NBA (or Euroleague) if you suck ass. He didn't ever live up to the hype but he's always been a replacement level player or better.

That being said, Kuminga could be a lot better. Who knows. I'm not really sure I see the comp tbh.

Sent from my SM-G975U using Tapatalk

[Duke4life831]

My problem with this stance is it looks at Wiseman through a Warriors-only lens, and not Kuminga. Are we talking about their impact as Warriors, or overall?

Because I'll ask - how do you hide a 3, a 4, or a 5 in our system? You say its easier to hide a perimeter player... sure, we can hide one. And its always been a guard, never a forward. I dont think its possible. If it is, we have not done it in 9 years of Mike Malone/Ron Adams systems, and we seem to place a lot of importance on a player being a defender if they are a 3-4-5 that isn't earmarked for a limited reserve role.

I'll also challenge the idea that Wiseman was a bad defender before coming here. He wasn't, he was actually excellent in HS (easy, I know) and very good in very limited Memphis showings. He just has never had to switch as much as we do here, and neither has Kuminga. And actually unlike Kuminga, Wiseman understood the defense - he was just understanding it too slow. He'd miss a mark, or a switch, recover late... Kuminga just misses it. Offensively, Kuminga is definitely the superior fit, but again, he's being put in the same situation as Wiseman was, except that it caters to Kuminga. We gave Wiseman the ball 20 feet away from the rim and iso'd a side for him, on average 1.2 times per game (in a way that ended the possession - I'm sure it was more than that). What were we expecting to happen? He's never been a shot creator, he's only been a good passer from the post. We never ran him on the top block where he actually had experience.. he really was given absolutely no chance to succeed barring him being a generational talent.

So I dont think youre being fair to Wiseman, considering Kuminga is showing arguably worse defensive instincts in our system, and has actually had a worse overall rating since Dray left than Wiseman did last season. The tracking stats make it *really* hard to forgive one and not the other. Both should be considered very high upside players that will need to learn our defensive system if they want to be long-term starters. If neither does show defensive chops, at least for this system... are either of them starters?

But he wasn't. He had the "Defensive potential" tag on him, actually very similar to Kumigna. Kuminga because of his athleticism and measurements was viewed as a guy with high defensive potential, but not actual good defensive production. Pretty much almost every scouting report on Wiseman said the same thing about his defense. He is a good shot blocker, but there are a ton of holes in his defensive game. He gets lost on PnRs, is not a good defender when he gets switched out on the perimeter, has bad defensive awareness and so on. This is was all well known about him prior to going to Memphis. Again the two biggest weaknesses attributed to Wiseman coming out of high school was that outside of blocking shots he was a bad defender and he was a black hole offensively.

And yes its always easier to hide a perimeter player than it is to hide a 5. You cant hide bad 5s in the NBA on the defensive end. Every offense can single out a bad defensive 5 and take advantage of it, especially if its a 5 that has really bad defensive awareness. Its far easier to hide a bad perimeter defender (especially ones with Kuminga's size) on the worst perimeter player on the opposing teams. And in player's like Kumigna, another way to hide their bad team defense is to put them on the ball as much as possible.

And Im talking both overall and for the Warriors. I think its a waist to spend a lotto pick on a big like Wiseman. This also isnt some thing I have only against Wiseman. Ive made this point on the Draft board over and over again for players like him.

Im much more willing to look past the negatives on Kuminga's defense because I think they're more fixable because again no matter what he will have less responsibility on that end. And I can point to far more raw athletic wings who were bad defenders early on, who became good defenders, than I can point to really bad 5s that ended up being good defenders.

No.. he was. Defensive potential was the tag because he only had 3 college games. In those 3 college games he was a defensive stalwart. And that's not similar to Kuminga at all, who was a bad defender in the GL. Again, context has to be given: 3 games in college vs. a thrown together team of guys trying to raise their own stock. But its not that he wasnt a good defender in his college games. He was borderline lockdown.

As far as what draftniks said, I dont know how they'd know considering he had literally all of 4 PnR opportunities on defense in college, and the best scenario was 1 resulting in FTs. He had 9 perimeter defensive opportunities, where again he allowed 0.44 PPP. Like I'm looking at the Synergy numbers here right now. If they are talking about in HS, sure, but thats particularly weird because his draft notes from Synergy specifically mention that his HS team played him as a center in zone, and that his perimeter defense was an unknown because of it. Which draft sites talked about his PnR? He only had 1 instance with USA basketball there too.. There's just nothing to base any of this on, and I feel like Synergy is the most comprehensive about this kinda thing.

You keep saying its easier to hide a perimeter player than a 5. OK. Done. I asked you specifically how do you hide Kuminga? Because we've literally never been able to hide anyone besides the person playing PG, and the solution is to usually have the 2 or the 3 absorb the even tougher defensive assignment. I'm still asking - how do we hide Kuminga? How do you hide his bad rotations (which again are worse than Wiseman's) but are unable to hide Wiseman's?

https://www.sportingnews.com/in/nba/news/nba-draft-2020-james-wiseman-scouting-report-strengths-weaknesses-and-player-comparison/c4cj7cvic2g8103q6c00g5ht5
"Wiseman can block shots, sure, but there are still holes in his game defensively. Moving side to side isn’t a strong suit of his and for that reason, he’s not a player that’s comfortable switching out to guards."

https://www.nbamockdraft.com/james-wiseman/
"However, there are many parts of the game that Wiseman needs to improve on drastically before he can become a legitimate starting center in the NBA. In pick and roll defense, Wiseman often times looked lost and could not hedge the screen or recover onto his man despite having a speed and length advantage over the other players."

https://www.thestepien.com/2020/01/24/james-wiseman-scouting-report/
"Good rim protector with his length and has solid timing. Prone to biting on fakes. Not high on his awareness,
though it's improved from AAU. Very poor PnR coverage - needs work here in positioning, communication,
footwork (bad in space in general),
slow feet, recovery, etc. Heavy feet in space, w/average hip fluidity…though
he'd flash solid turn from time to time. Not great in help"

https://basketballsocietyonline.com/james-wiseman-scouting-report
"Wiseman’s biggest weakness is defending the pick and roll, which is a huge concern for NBA teams."

https://www.espn.com/nba/insider/story/_/id/30230928/nba-draft-2020-debating-james-wiseman-onyeka-okongwu-best-bigs
"I don't think Wiseman did enough to quell the concerns about his winning impact, feel for the game or motor in his three college games,"

Those were literally the first 4 results when I pulled up James Wiseman scouting report. I can keep going if you'd like. And this isnt just me regurgitating what all these are saying. Many people were saying this about Wiseman before he even played one of his few games at Memphis.

[EvanZ]

I didn't see it before but I had been told Jeff Green was a good Kuminga comp. Watching Green the other night in Denver with Kuminga on the court I kind of saw what he was talking about. I actually didn't ever realize how explosive Green is (even at age 34!). But he had so many other issues with his game he never really put it all together. Hopefully JK does put it all together.

Jeff Green **** sucks ass. Kuminga is already better than he ever was.

Big J do you ever think before you type?

You just come off sounding like a poor man's Stephen A Smith.

[FNQ]

But he wasn't. He had the "Defensive potential" tag on him, actually very similar to Kumigna. Kuminga because of his athleticism and measurements was viewed as a guy with high defensive potential, but not actual good defensive production. Pretty much almost every scouting report on Wiseman said the same thing about his defense. He is a good shot blocker, but there are a ton of holes in his defensive game. He gets lost on PnRs, is not a good defender when he gets switched out on the perimeter, has bad defensive awareness and so on. This is was all well known about him prior to going to Memphis. Again the two biggest weaknesses attributed to Wiseman coming out of high school was that outside of blocking shots he was a bad defender and he was a black hole offensively.

And yes its always easier to hide a perimeter player than it is to hide a 5. You cant hide bad 5s in the NBA on the defensive end. Every offense can single out a bad defensive 5 and take advantage of it, especially if its a 5 that has really bad defensive awareness. Its far easier to hide a bad perimeter defender (especially ones with Kuminga's size) on the worst perimeter player on the opposing teams. And in player's like Kumigna, another way to hide their bad team defense is to put them on the ball as much as possible.

And Im talking both overall and for the Warriors. I think its a waist to spend a lotto pick on a big like Wiseman. This also isnt some thing I have only against Wiseman. Ive made this point on the Draft board over and over again for players like him.

Im much more willing to look past the negatives on Kuminga's defense because I think they're more fixable because again no matter what he will have less responsibility on that end. And I can point to far more raw athletic wings who were bad defenders early on, who became good defenders, than I can point to really bad 5s that ended up being good defenders.

No.. he was. Defensive potential was the tag because he only had 3 college games. In those 3 college games he was a defensive stalwart. And that's not similar to Kuminga at all, who was a bad defender in the GL. Again, context has to be given: 3 games in college vs. a thrown together team of guys trying to raise their own stock. But its not that he wasnt a good defender in his college games. He was borderline lockdown.

As far as what draftniks said, I dont know how they'd know considering he had literally all of 4 PnR opportunities on defense in college, and the best scenario was 1 resulting in FTs. He had 9 perimeter defensive opportunities, where again he allowed 0.44 PPP. Like I'm looking at the Synergy numbers here right now. If they are talking about in HS, sure, but thats particularly weird because his draft notes from Synergy specifically mention that his HS team played him as a center in zone, and that his perimeter defense was an unknown because of it. Which draft sites talked about his PnR? He only had 1 instance with USA basketball there too.. There's just nothing to base any of this on, and I feel like Synergy is the most comprehensive about this kinda thing.

You keep saying its easier to hide a perimeter player than a 5. OK. Done. I asked you specifically how do you hide Kuminga? Because we've literally never been able to hide anyone besides the person playing PG, and the solution is to usually have the 2 or the 3 absorb the even tougher defensive assignment. I'm still asking - how do we hide Kuminga? How do you hide his bad rotations (which again are worse than Wiseman's) but are unable to hide Wiseman's?

https://www.sportingnews.com/in/nba/news/nba-draft-2020-james-wiseman-scouting-report-strengths-weaknesses-and-player-comparison/c4cj7cvic2g8103q6c00g5ht5
"Wiseman can block shots, sure, but there are still holes in his game defensively. Moving side to side isn’t a strong suit of his and for that reason, he’s not a player that’s comfortable switching out to guards."

https://www.nbamockdraft.com/james-wiseman/
"However, there are many parts of the game that Wiseman needs to improve on drastically before he can become a legitimate starting center in the NBA. In pick and roll defense, Wiseman often times looked lost and could not hedge the screen or recover onto his man despite having a speed and length advantage over the other players."

https://www.thestepien.com/2020/01/24/james-wiseman-scouting-report/
"Good rim protector with his length and has solid timing. Prone to biting on fakes. Not high on his awareness,
though it's improved from AAU. Very poor PnR coverage - needs work here in positioning, communication,
footwork (bad in space in general),
slow feet, recovery, etc. Heavy feet in space, w/average hip fluidity…though
he'd flash solid turn from time to time. Not great in help"

https://basketballsocietyonline.com/james-wiseman-scouting-report
"Wiseman’s biggest weakness is defending the pick and roll, which is a huge concern for NBA teams."

https://www.espn.com/nba/insider/story/_/id/30230928/nba-draft-2020-debating-james-wiseman-onyeka-okongwu-best-bigs
"I don't think Wiseman did enough to quell the concerns about his winning impact, feel for the game or motor in his three college games,"

Those were literally the first 4 results when I pulled up James Wiseman scouting report. I can keep going if you'd like. And this isnt just me regurgitating what all these are saying. Many people were saying this about Wiseman before he even played one of his few games at Memphis.

Like 2 of them mention it, and I've never heard of any of them. And like I said, I actually have the data from his college and USA basketball stints, as well as Synergy's detailed HS write-up. Where are they getting this from? There's plenty of data to SUGGEST that he wouldnt have been a good PnR defender. He switched poorly to the perimeter (especially in recovery) and the lateral quickness thing was of course flagged.. but there's actually no data to support this. The ESPN one mentions absolutely nothing of it - and if you're going for a site, trust Givony - but the rest is baseless. Bad in space? Sure. Could that translate to bad PnR defense? Sure. Did it?

Not in HS
Not in team USA
Not in college
And here's a kicker: not even in the NBA, where he graded out as average against it his 1st year, which is pretty good for a rookie.

This isn't uncommon btw. Same thing happens with Euro kids that dont have much tape. One person speculates, it gets picked up by a bunch of other flunkie sites and a narrative is created. Yet despite those sites calling it out, with Givony's detailed breakdowns, why doesnt he touch on it at all? All sites touched on his lack of lateral quickness though... so considering that he was league average at the NBA level in his rookie year, even if you think these sites had access to detailed HS tape of his and he somehow proved 2 years ago that he couldnt defend the PnR today.. why are we still buying this? He was fine at the NBA level on the PnR. He struggled tremendously with off-ball rotations more than anything..

NOTE: the Synergy system doesnt award PPP for fouls (so if the PnR results in a shooting foul, it doesnt count for or against PPP), but it does track for fouls, of which Wiseman was in the 15th percentile. Which is pretty bad. So in terms of that, he was bad. In terms of PPP, had he wound up qualifying for the year, he would have been in the 54th percentile of eligible players

I'd also still really like to know how to hide Kuminga

[shazam_guy]

Actually, the entire Wiseman discussion starting from before the draft is an example of this -- speculation in the absence of information, some of which becomes the foundation for more speculation, then some of that pure speculation becomes foundational, and so on. Most people on sports boards (or who make mock drafts) would probably rather shoot themselves in the d*ck than admit they just don't know, so it rolls on like a snowball, getting bigger and bigger. Which is why, as Samurai points out elsewhere, we have 40+ pages of a thread that is more or less speculation about Wiseman, threaded with snippets of his early-season performance last year that have been grindingly over-analyzed.

Here are two things I can tell you: he's not going to be Hakeem Olajuwon, but he's not going to be Hasheem Thabeet either. Where he falls between those two poles -- well, we'll find out in the next year or so. And nobody -- not Steve Kerr, not Penny Hardaway, not even Wiseman himself, and certainly none of us here -- knows the answer. All anyone has is guesses, although those who guess right will probably claim they knew it for certain all along.

[SpreeS]

We so lucky with Kuminga

1. We got pick in Wiggs/DiLo trade
2. Looking at this year MIN record, we got near the best outcome from this pick
3. Barnes is only player would be the best possible option to get from this situation. So we got the second best possible option at the moment.

[dk1115]

I wonder if Kuminga is gonna pull is PPG above 10 this year. Should be close.

[Scoots1994]

I didn't see it before but I had been told Jeff Green was a good Kuminga comp. Watching Green the other night in Denver with Kuminga on the court I kind of saw what he was talking about. I actually didn't ever realize how explosive Green is (even at age 34!). But he had so many other issues with his game he never really put it all together. Hopefully JK does put it all together.

Jeff Green **** sucks ass. Kuminga is already better than he ever was.

Nothing personal but I hate statements like this. It's one of the reasons I can't stand Chris Vernon. You don't stick around for 15 or so years in the NBA (or Euroleague) if you suck ass. He didn't ever live up to the hype but he's always been a replacement level player or better.

That being said, Kuminga could be a lot better. Who knows. I'm not really sure I see the comp tbh.

Sent from my SM-G975U using Tapatalk

I have to tell myself when people say "sucks ass" they don't mean can't play the game at an incredibly high level, they mean "isn't a perennial all-star".

That said, there are a lot of NBA players with long careers who shouldn't get them and a lot of players with short or no career who should have got one because of luck/circumstances/a few big(bad) games.

[Big J]

Jeff Green **** sucks ass. Kuminga is already better than he ever was.

Nothing personal but I hate statements like this. It's one of the reasons I can't stand Chris Vernon. You don't stick around for 15 or so years in the NBA (or Euroleague) if you suck ass. He didn't ever live up to the hype but he's always been a replacement level player or better.

That being said, Kuminga could be a lot better. Who knows. I'm not really sure I see the comp tbh.

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I have to tell myself when people say "sucks ass" they don't mean can't play the game at an incredibly high level, they mean "isn't a perennial all-star".

That said, there are a lot of NBA players with long careers who shouldn't get them and a lot of players with short or no career who should have got one because of luck/circumstances/a few big(bad) games.

Lol, anyone who makes the league doesn’t actually suck. It’s just that Jeff Green is such an uninspiring guy to be compared to. Kuminga deserves better, which is the reason for my visceral reaction.

[wco81]

Green was a top 5 pick in his draft class. He certainly had athleticism but he had a major health issue and may never have recovered his peak athleticism.

Relegated to a role player the last 5-10 years or so.

[The-Power]

Interestingly, Rookie Kuminga and Rookie Green (who, however, was older than Kuminga) are actually quite comparable in terms of boxscore production (per 100) with the exception of scoring. In that regard, Kuminga blows him out of the water in terms of efficiency (due to having a better shot profile (more 3s instead of long 2s) and being more efficient around the rim and from distance) and does so at higher volume.

So maybe Kuminga will turn out to be someone like Jeff Green except that Kuminga can actually score efficiently and carry a greater scoring burden. That, obviously, makes him a much better prospect but the non-scoring attributes could be similar. Of course we'd hope that Kuminga develops better playmaking chops and uses his athleticism to better protect the rim and rebound on the defensive glass but that's a question mark for the time being.

https://stathead.com/basketball/pcm_finder.cgi?request=1&sum=0&player_id1=greenje02&p1yrfrom=2008&player_id2=kuminjo01&p2yrfrom=2022

[EvanZ]

Interestingly, Rookie Kuminga and Rookie Green (who, however, was older than Kuminga) are actually quite comparable in terms of boxscore production (per 100) with the exception of scoring. In that regard, Kuminga blows him out of the water in terms of efficiency (due to having a better shot profile (more 3s instead of long 2s) and being more efficient around the rim and from distance) and does so at higher volume.

So maybe Kuminga will turn out to be someone like Jeff Green except that Kuminga can actually score efficiently and carry a greater scoring burden. That, obviously, makes him a much better prospect but the non-scoring attributes could be similar. Of course we'd hope that Kuminga develops better playmaking chops and uses his athleticism to better protect the rim and rebound on the defensive glass but that's a question mark for the time being.

https://stathead.com/basketball/pcm_finder.cgi?request=1&sum=0&player_id1=greenje02&p1yrfrom=2008&player_id2=kuminjo01&p2yrfrom=2022

It's funny if you recall that the narrative around Jeff Green in OKC was that he was a wing, but played better when they moved him to the 4. It's a lot like Kuminga actually in that regard. Kuminga at least is hitting open 3s, but even still you probably want to take advantage of his physical profile at the 4, if possible. In theory, Kuminga could fill the Harrison Barnes role in the Death Lineup.

[Big J]

We keep comparing him to guys with boring ass games, Jeff Green, and now Harrison Barnes. He brings way more excitement and star power than those guys. Former and current players can’t stop talking about him being a future star. His ceiling is easily a top 5 player in the league.

[The-Power]

We keep comparing him to guys with boring ass games, Jeff Green, and now Harrison Barnes. He brings way more excitement and star power than those guys. Former and current players can’t stop talking about him being a future star. His ceiling is easily a top 5 player in the league.

Nobody is saying that these players and Kuminga are the same, but that they share certain characteristics and/or could fill similar roles. Nothing wrong with that, no matter how much you object to that.

It's also funny that you went from thinking ‘out of the league after his Rookie deal’ to ‘ceiling is easily top 5 player’ within the span of a couple months. I suppose alternating between extremes is just more fun?

[Big J]

We keep comparing him to guys with boring ass games, Jeff Green, and now Harrison Barnes. He brings way more excitement and star power than those guys. Former and current players can’t stop talking about him being a future star. His ceiling is easily a top 5 player in the league.

Nobody is saying that these players and Kuminga are the same, but that they share certain characteristics and/or could fill similar roles. Nothing wrong with that, no matter how much you object to that.

It's also funny that you went from thinking ‘out of the league after his Rookie deal’ to ‘ceiling is easily top 5 player’ within the span of a couple months. I suppose alternating between extremes is just more fun?

When Kuminga reaches his peak he's not going to be the 4th option on offense though, so he won't be filling a similar role. He's going to be guy who the team is built around like Giannis.