Does Embiid even have the defense argument over Jokic now?

[The Rebel]

Oddly enough Joel Embiid has given up more points at the rim than Jokic has for years. It is a verifiable fact, go look at the tracking stats on NBA.com.

Why is it that Embiid's defensive stats always drop without Simmons in the games? It has happened his whole career. Why did Jokic's stats always get better with Harris than without him? Why does Gobert struggle defensively against teams with good guard scoring? In today's NBA perimeter defense is more important than paint defense, with offensive guys allowed to carry the ball, run 4 or 5 steps without dribbling, and create contact than once a guard gets free it is damn near impossible a 7 footer to stop small guards.

The Nuggets have given up less points at the rim than most teams for years, especially when Jokic is on the court. Despite having teams run the pick and roll against them more than anybody for some of those years. Their entire system is to have Jokic hedge on screens and then go for the pass deflections or a block on the floor. That is why he has been in the top 5 for deflections for years. When the Nuggets defense works nobody gets to the rim. What they do get is open mid range shots, which is why small quick guards with midrange shots have always killed them when they have not had Harris.

[The Rebel]

This thread is laughable. Every time Embiid has a bad game, his haters come crawling out of the woodwork. Take a look at Jokic's defense in the playoffs, and compare it to Embiid's if you want to see what impact Embiid makes on defense. Embiid's defense is better than Gobert's in the playoffs, and Gobert is widely considered one of the greatest defenders of all time.

https://www.statmuse.com/nba/ask/joel-embiid-playoff-defensive-rating-by-year

Joel Embiid had a defensive rating of 101, 100, 110, and 104 in the last 4 years in the playoffs

Jokic

https://www.statmuse.com/nba/ask/jokic-playoff-defensive-rating-by-year#:~:text=Nikola%20Jokic%20had%20a%20defensive%20rating%20of%20108.8%20in%202018%2D19.

Defensive rating of 108, 112 and 120.

Also, if you want to talk about impact, look at their plus minus in the playoffs.

Embiid last 4 years

+43, +143, -53 and +121

Jokic last 3 years

+84, -14, -87

I wonder who is not in the same league looking at these numbers...

Compare Embiid's defensive rating to Gobert's in the playoffs, who is widely considered a generational defender...

https://www.statmuse.com/nba/ask/gobert-playoff-defensive-rating-by-year

Gobert's were 104, 103, 105, 115, and 117.

So Gobert is not as good in the playoffs, especially in the last two years, and Embiid's best years, is comparable to one of the best defenders of all time in the playoffs.


As for this season, Jokic has improved considerably, but is probably a slightly above average defender now. Not in the same realm as Embiid though.

So your argument against Jokic being better this year is that Embiid was better over the last few years? Guess that means you have no argument for this year?

Nope my argument is that Embiid plays his best defense in the playoffs, where Jokic is incomparable.

If Embiid plays such great defense in the playoffs than why is his defensive rating so bad without Simmons? Could it be that Simmons was the difference maker on defense?

[Richard Miller]

LMAO, mediocre teams?

Embiid was a +90 in the raptors series where Kawhi hit the shot. His defense was otherworldly in that series.

That's still one series. If you want to boast playoff stats, should mention they include series vs a below .500 team (Wizards) and couple of barely .500 (Heat, Nets). The worst team Jokic faced in the playoffs is better than any of those

[eyeatoma]

So your argument against Jokic being better this year is that Embiid was better over the last few years? Guess that means you have no argument for this year?

Nope my argument is that Embiid plays his best defense in the playoffs, where Jokic is incomparable.

If Embiid plays such great defense in the playoffs than why is his defensive rating so bad without Simmons? Could it be that Simmons was the difference maker on defense?

Well, every Sixer defender outside of Ben SImmons is horrible. Like way below average. So not sure where you're going with that. There is no defender on earth that can erase the mistakes of 4 incompetent defenders. Yet, despite that the Sixers have a top 10 defense in the NBA, because of Embiid. Take a look at Embiid's defense when Simmons wasn't around, in his first year, it was just as stunning.

The playoffs against the Celtics, Embiid was the only offensive option and averaged 30/10. Kind of hard to play all world defense when you're the sole offensiv options. It's why I've already said, over the last two years Embiid picks and chooses when he plays defense. But when he does, Jokic isn't even in the same ballpark. He is far more consistent on defense in the playoffs sans the 4 games against the Celtics two years ago.

Tell me which elite defender didn't have another great defender on the team. Even Rudy Gobert has Royce O'neal who is a great to elite defender. We all know what Gobert's defense is like in the playoffs. MJ had Pippen and Rodman. Yet he was widely consider one of the best defenders. Interesting, because Pippen and Rodman are also all time great defenders. More often than not you're going to find the best defenders in the NBA, have other great defenders on the team as well. That's not an indictment on said defender, it's just how basketball works. No defender can cover all the mistakes of every other player all around the court, and not just in the paint.

[Rakkasan]

Stop with this BS, Jokic is not the defender that Embiid is, and it's not even close.

[BenoUdrihFTL]

The argument from Embiid stans would be that Joel doesn't try on defense during the RS. Meanwhile his offensive numbers are legit because apparently opposing defenses are trying against him during the RS

[Godymas]

Embiid isn't going to look as impactful when he has Matisse Thybulle holding down the fort when the team doesn't need him on offense.

[dribble1614]

yes, he's an appreciably better defensive player. significantly better at pick/roll defense, switching and recovering, post defense and rim protection. jokic is at best an average defensive player. analytics and advanced stats are a very poor metric for gauging defensive prowess.

[mksp]

Jokic is still the better player. Maybe next year Joel eclipses him.

[The Rebel]

yes, he's an appreciably better defensive player. significantly better at pick/roll defense, switching and recovering, post defense and rim protection. jokic is at best an average defensive player. analytics and advanced stats are a very poor metric for gauging defensive prowess.

Yet your eye test is better despite all evidence to the contrary.

[itsxtray]

yes, he's an appreciably better defensive player. significantly better at pick/roll defense, switching and recovering, post defense and rim protection. jokic is at best an average defensive player. analytics and advanced stats are a very poor metric for gauging defensive prowess.

Idk how you can watch the Hawks series last year and say that Emiid is a great pick&roll defender. Trae young with Collins and Capela toyed with him. He was caught in the middle so much and Trae young consistently threw lobs over his head or hit the floater b4 he could step up, it's a big reason why they lost that series apart from Ben Simmons.

[dribble1614]

yes, he's an appreciably better defensive player. significantly better at pick/roll defense, switching and recovering, post defense and rim protection. jokic is at best an average defensive player. analytics and advanced stats are a very poor metric for gauging defensive prowess.

Idk how you can watch the Hawks series last year and say that Emiid is a great pick&roll defender. Trae young with Collins and Capela toyed with him. He was caught in the middle so much and Trae young consistently threw lobs over his head or hit the floater b4 he could step up, it's a big reason why they lost that series apart from Ben Simmons.

he's an above average pick/roll defender but a few levels ahead of jokic in that regard despite it not being his best aspect on defense. giannis is one of the if not the best pick/roll defender in basketball. jokic's lack of foot speed and lateral quickness/mobility significantly impairs his pick/roll defense as has been seen throughout the regular season as well as the playoffs. historically it is part of why denver has had such bad defenses the last few years. jokic is still an amazing player, but this idea that he is suddenly now an elite defensive player has no merit whatsoever. embiid's best attributes are his 1 on 1 post defense and certainly rim protection where he, giannis and gobert in any order are probably the 3 best in the league.

[dribble1614]

yes, he's an appreciably better defensive player. significantly better at pick/roll defense, switching and recovering, post defense and rim protection. jokic is at best an average defensive player. analytics and advanced stats are a very poor metric for gauging defensive prowess.

Yet your eye test is better despite all evidence to the contrary.

[itsxtray]

yes, he's an appreciably better defensive player. significantly better at pick/roll defense, switching and recovering, post defense and rim protection. jokic is at best an average defensive player. analytics and advanced stats are a very poor metric for gauging defensive prowess.

Idk how you can watch the Hawks series last year and say that Emiid is a great pick&roll defender. Trae young with Collins and Capela toyed with him. He was caught in the middle so much and Trae young consistently threw lobs over his head or hit the floater b4 he could step up, it's a big reason why they lost that series apart from Ben Simmons.

he's an above average pick/roll defender but a few levels ahead of jokic in that regard despite it not being his best aspect on defense. giannis is one of the if not the best pick/roll defender in basketball. jokic's lack of foot speed and lateral quickness/mobility significantly impairs his pick/roll defense as has been seen throughout the regular season as well as the playoffs. historically it is part of why denver has had such bad defenses the last few years. jokic is still an amazing player, but this idea that he is suddenly now an elite defensive player has no merit whatsoever. embiid's best attributes are his 1 on 1 post defense and certainly rim protection where he, giannis and gobert in any order are probably the 3 best in the league.

Agreed, that lob Giannis broke up in the finals last year is one of the greatest defensive plays i've ever seen, if push comes to shove give me a locked in Giannis over Embiid & Gobert on defense but i agree that Embiid has a gear that Jokic just can't reach, he just doesn't have the tools.

[eyeatoma]

yes, he's an appreciably better defensive player. significantly better at pick/roll defense, switching and recovering, post defense and rim protection. jokic is at best an average defensive player. analytics and advanced stats are a very poor metric for gauging defensive prowess.

Yet your eye test is better despite all evidence to the contrary.

Yes it actually is for defense. I know you guys are all about advanced stats, but it truly doesn't capture defense the same way. Also, defensive metrics, put a huge value on rebounds, something that Jokic has done really well this year. Is that a coincidence that his best defensive year, is also the year, where he has a career high in rebounds?

Also, rebounds do not equate defense. For some players they do, but for many it doesn't. If it did players like Sabonis, Andre Drummond, Vucevic would be considered the best defenders in the game on an annual basis.

[AleksandarN]

Read on Twitter

[dhsilv2]

Nope my argument is that Embiid plays his best defense in the playoffs, where Jokic is incomparable.

If Embiid plays such great defense in the playoffs than why is his defensive rating so bad without Simmons? Could it be that Simmons was the difference maker on defense?

Well, every Sixer defender outside of Ben SImmons is horrible.

Harris is not horrible, he's an above average defender, not a great one but completely competent and fine. Last year in the playoffs Thybulle was 5th in minutes. He was horrible? Say what? George hill, Danny Green? Dude....you're on drugs!

[dhsilv2]

yes, he's an appreciably better defensive player. significantly better at pick/roll defense, switching and recovering, post defense and rim protection. jokic is at best an average defensive player. analytics and advanced stats are a very poor metric for gauging defensive prowess.

Idk how you can watch the Hawks series last year and say that Emiid is a great pick&roll defender. Trae young with Collins and Capela toyed with him. He was caught in the middle so much and Trae young consistently threw lobs over his head or hit the floater b4 he could step up, it's a big reason why they lost that series apart from Ben Simmons.

he's an above average pick/roll defender but a few levels ahead of jokic in that regard despite it not being his best aspect on defense. giannis is one of the if not the best pick/roll defender in basketball. jokic's lack of foot speed and lateral quickness/mobility significantly impairs his pick/roll defense as has been seen throughout the regular season as well as the playoffs. historically it is part of why denver has had such bad defenses the last few years. jokic is still an amazing player, but this idea that he is suddenly now an elite defensive player has no merit whatsoever. embiid's best attributes are his 1 on 1 post defense and certainly rim protection where he, giannis and gobert in any order are probably the 3 best in the league.

Why are you talking about the playoffs when we're talking about a clearly more mobile, slimmer, and frankly better defensive version of Jokic in this thread? He's night and day better on pick and roll this year because that weight loss has made his foot speed better. Meanwhile Embiid does not look at engaged or active on that end. Both players THIS year are playing at different levels defensively than they have historically.

[dhsilv2]

yes, he's an appreciably better defensive player. significantly better at pick/roll defense, switching and recovering, post defense and rim protection. jokic is at best an average defensive player. analytics and advanced stats are a very poor metric for gauging defensive prowess.

Yet your eye test is better despite all evidence to the contrary.

Yes it actually is for defense. I know you guys are all about advanced stats, but it truly doesn't capture defense the same way. Also, defensive metrics, put a huge value on rebounds, something that Jokic has done really well this year. Is that a coincidence that his best defensive year, is also the year, where he has a career high in rebounds?

Also, rebounds do not equate defense. For some players they do, but for many it doesn't. If it did players like Sabonis, Andre Drummond, Vucevic would be considered the best defenders in the game on an annual basis.

So you're SURE dribble is a better analyst than others on this forum based on that one post? That's pretty amazing confidence in the guy. What if he thinks Embiid sucks too?

[eyeatoma]

If Embiid plays such great defense in the playoffs than why is his defensive rating so bad without Simmons? Could it be that Simmons was the difference maker on defense?

Well, every Sixer defender outside of Ben SImmons is horrible.

Harris is not horrible, he's an above average defender, not a great one but completely competent and fine. Last year in the playoffs Thybulle was 5th in minutes. He was horrible? Say what? George hill, Danny Green? Dude....you're on drugs!

At best Harris is an average defender, who is able to do a few good things on occasion.

Danny Green barely played in the playoffs last year, he was injured. George Hill didn't get much playing time, and was a bust for us in our trade acquisition. Thybulle is great I agree, but he also takes a lot of risks, and can't be kept on the floor very much.