Draymond Green vs Ben Wallace. Who would you pick?

[falcolombardi]

16 Draymond in playoffs without Steph

19/11/8/2/1 on .568ts and 43% from 3

They were a Harden gamewinner away from going 5-1 with Steph out.....

For the thread answer is Draymond and its not that close. Defensively its Ben but not a gigantic gap. Offensive gap is too large. Draymond is one of the best playmaking bigs ever and at peak he was a good scorer and great 3pt shooter in that 16 season with stretch big impact. Were talking about someone who went 32/15/9 on .955ts in a game 7 of the Nba finals. Ben Wallace under no circumstances or Dream Teams is capable of anything like that. His offense stunk

What was he doing IN 2020 when they were one of the worst teams in the NBA?

1. He missed one third of the season.

2. Warriors coasted all season long.

3. What was Wallace doing in Washington?

ehh, if we are making a career comparision then the bad 2020 season still counts, and i say this as someone who would go with draymond over big ben

that his team coasted is not a good argument in his favor

of course a dissapointing 2020 season doesnt diminish the rest of his career either, just pointing it out "didnt try as hard cause they were not contenders" is not a good look

[Jaivl]

I mean we're not really making a career comparison here, we're refuting this gem of a take:

"Ben Wallace easily. Green is only good when he’s on atg stacked teams, we saw how pathetic he looked when curry was out in 2020"

[cupcakesnake]

Defensively I think of Ben Wallace as flying Draymond (+ there's the bonus that he doesn't kick people in the nuts on purpose and get suspended in the finals ) He can guard 5 positions (though this is a bit of an extrapolation based on a small number of possessions), stand up anyone in the post (if you can stand up Shaq that means literally everyone), caused all sorts of turnover mayhem at the nail and the middle of the paint, and then there's the elite rim protection edge he has over Draymond (hence the flying part).

But like everyone's saying... how are we supposed to compare these 2 offensively? Ben was a decent lob threat despite not playing with great lob passers (it was Rip Hamilton, not Chauncey who was tossing alleys to Ben. Usually off a little pin down play they ran). Maybe Ben gets cleaner lobs in today's game, with more space. But when he wasn't dunking it, he was a very poor finisher due to his really low-tier hands. His overall finishing numbers inside 3 feet look like a point guards. Ben was a decent passer, nothing special, but he'd make good reads out of the high post (2 handed passes over his head only but he has a positive assist to turn over ratio). There's just not really such thing as an offensive player as limited as Ben in today's game. Mathisse Thybulle comes to mind, but he can shoot it a little bit.

I love Ben, but he's hard to rate and compare because he's a historic outlier on offense in a bad way.

[pillwenney]

Feels like people are overrating Ben's man defense in this thread. I don't recall him being viewed as elite in that way in nearly the way Draymond is.

[countryboy667]

Green...but a much more interesting comparison would be peak Draymond Green versus peak Bill Laimbeer...

[Doctor MJ]

I think Big Ben is pretty much the ideal defensive player for 2022. He's an elite rim protector that is extremely mobile defending the P&R or switching on the perimeter. That being said, I think his terrible offense would likely be exploited far more today than it was in his day.

You’re not including communication.

Now that strategy is making better use of the freedom offered by the relaxing of illegal defense rules, the gold standard for a defender includes being able to read the offense and tell teammates what to do before they do it. This is a massive source of impact for ultra-high defensive BBIQ guys like Garnett, Gasol & Green, and key to why they’ve won DPOYs.

Ben would be excellent defensively in any era, but you’re not going to be able to have effectiveness like the ‘03-04 Pistons had by playing precisely the same way now that the game is dominated by pace and space.


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[Doctor MJ]

Relative to their eras, Ben was better. Come on now.

Not at all clear to me. He has the DPOY lead but he shouldn’t have as many as he does and Green should have more.

Frankly, if not for ‘03-04 I’m skeptical it would seem so clear to folks, and you don’t get that performance without an astonishing defensive supporting cast that included a hyper-motivated Sheed who could be argued to be a more valuable defensive player than a Green has ever played with.


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[Doctor MJ]

Is this an any era question? Or just in the current NBA?

A good question.

Only thing I’d say: The current NBA is different largely because of strategic and skill-based improvements that could have been executed in ‘03-04 (allowable by rules).

So I might translate your question into:

Are we playing against state-of-the-art basketball opponents or only considering dumber offense?

If the latter, Wallace has a great case.


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[cupcakesnake]

Not at all clear to me. He has the DPOY lead but he shouldn’t have as many as he does and Green should have more.

Frankly, if not for ‘03-04 I’m skeptical it would seem so clear to folks, and you don’t get that performance without an astonishing defensive supporting cast that included a hyper-motivated Sheed who could be argued to be a more valuable defensive player than a Green has ever played with.

Which DPOY do you think Ben shouldn't have won and who should he have lost it to? I haven't done a rigorous year-by-year analysis on all the ones he won, but I have him being the more impactful defender than Metta World Peace in 2004. I'm guessing you think Duncan needs one of Ben's? Duncan and Ben's defensive peaks certainly overlap.

I'm not sure I agree with you about personnel. Obviously the Pistons had a STACKED defensive frontcourt (their backcourt wasn't special), but Green played with some monstrous defenders in his own right. Andrew Bogut and Andre Iguodala I think stack up just fine against Sheed and Tayshaun overall. Those Warriors had peskier man defense on the perimeter (Klay, Livingston). Barnes was solid. Ezeli was extra rim protection off the bench. I'm not saying the Warriors definitely had better defensive personnel than the Pistons, but implying that Draymond did more with less doesn't resonate with me.

Now that strategy is making better use of the freedom offered by the relaxing of illegal defense rules, the gold standard for a defender includes being able to read the offense and tell teammates what to do before they do it. This is a massive source of impact for ultra-high defensive BBIQ guys like Garnett, Gasol & Green, and key to why they’ve won DPOYs.

Ben would be excellent defensively in any era, but you’re not going to be able to have effectiveness like the ‘03-04 Pistons had by playing precisely the same way now that the game is dominated by pace and space.

I'm happy to give the benefit of the doubt to Draymond in terms of being a better backline communicator. We can at least see him barking constantly, where Ben seemed very very quiet. I think it's a hard thing to know for sure though.

I think any possible edge Ben loses as a communicator he makes up for as a vertical defender. While Draymond certainly overcomes his lack of hops with great positioning and length, Ben has rare athleticism that Draymond can't touch. I see Ben as an all-time great 2-footed jumper, who needed very little load up to get to his 2-foot max vert. His jumping was so quick that he could sometimes jump after guys and still get above the ball. Functionally it provided Ben a margin for error that Draymond just doesn't have. Draymond has to do better work, earlier in the possession (something he does at a genius level) I think Draymond is the better horizontal defender. Ben looked good switching but we saw too little of it to assume he could replicate that in a different scheme. I don't think it's fair to assume that Ben wouldn't have carried the same effectiveness in a different era. There's nothing missing from his defensive game, except for height (but that doesn't matter in a comparison with Draymond).

[Im Your Father]

I think Big Ben is pretty much the ideal defensive player for 2022. He's an elite rim protector that is extremely mobile defending the P&R or switching on the perimeter. That being said, I think his terrible offense would likely be exploited far more today than it was in his day.

You’re not including communication.

Now that strategy is making better use of the freedom offered by the relaxing of illegal defense rules, the gold standard for a defender includes being able to read the offense and tell teammates what to do before they do it. This is a massive source of impact for ultra-high defensive BBIQ guys like Garnett, Gasol & Green, and key to why they’ve won DPOYs.

Ben would be excellent defensively in any era, but you’re not going to be able to have effectiveness like the ‘03-04 Pistons had by playing precisely the same way now that the game is dominated by pace and space.


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Sure, I suppose that’s fair.

I guess I wasn’t trying to suggest that he’s the greatest *conceivable* defender in the modern era.

I actually don’t have much of a recollection of how Ben was as a communicator either way. He certainly didn’t strike me as a low IQ guy though. In fact, I’d argue that how little he tried to do on offense at least indicates that he was largely aware of and willing to accept his own limitations.

I guess my larger point is I see Ben as a player with Gobert type rim protection (perhaps a bit less) who isn’t nearly as likely to be targeted or exploited on the perimeter and that’s a pretty huge thing.

I’d say the only player I can think of offhand who combined Ben’s agility and rim protection with that defensive quarterbacking ability you mentioned would be Bill Russell.

Garnett has the agility and IQ but I don’t see him as the same kind of rim protector/shot blocker (doesn’t mean he still can’t be better defensively overall tho). Hakeem has perhaps even more agility and rim protection but I don’t see him as any more of a QB type. Same deal with Robinson (who was also perhaps a bit less nimble).

Fwiw I think even Gobert is still the clearly better player than Ben but that’s because of his offense.

[falcolombardi]

I think Big Ben is pretty much the ideal defensive player for 2022. He's an elite rim protector that is extremely mobile defending the P&R or switching on the perimeter. That being said, I think his terrible offense would likely be exploited far more today than it was in his day.

You’re not including communication.

Now that strategy is making better use of the freedom offered by the relaxing of illegal defense rules, the gold standard for a defender includes being able to read the offense and tell teammates what to do before they do it. This is a massive source of impact for ultra-high defensive BBIQ guys like Garnett, Gasol & Green, and key to why they’ve won DPOYs.

Ben would be excellent defensively in any era, but you’re not going to be able to have effectiveness like the ‘03-04 Pistons had by playing precisely the same way now that the game is dominated by pace and space.


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Sure, I suppose that’s fair.

I guess I wasn’t trying to suggest that he’s the greatest *conceivable* defender in the modern era.

I actually don’t have much of a recollection of how Ben was as a communicator either way. He certainly didn’t strike me as a low IQ guy though. In fact, I’d argue that how little he tried to do on offense at least indicates that he was largely aware of and willing to accept his own limitations.

I guess my larger point is I see Ben as a player with Gobert type rim protection (perhaps a bit less) who isn’t nearly as likely to be targeted or exploited on the perimeter and that’s a pretty huge thing.

I’d say the only player I can think of offhand who combined Ben’s agility and rim protection with that defensive quarterbacking ability you mentioned would be Bill Russell.

Garnett has the agility and IQ but I don’t see him as the same kind of rim protector/shot blocker (doesn’t mean he still can’t be better defensively overall tho). Hakeem has perhaps even more agility and rim protection but I don’t see him as any more of a QB type. Same deal with Robinson (who was also perhaps a bit less nimble).

Fwiw I think even Gobert is still the clearly better player than Ben but that’s because of his offense.

gobert doesnt really seem to get exposed in the perimeter as much as his team does when gobert is forced to leave the paint

but i may be wrong, i am going off memory rather than data here

[Im Your Father]

You’re not including communication.

Now that strategy is making better use of the freedom offered by the relaxing of illegal defense rules, the gold standard for a defender includes being able to read the offense and tell teammates what to do before they do it. This is a massive source of impact for ultra-high defensive BBIQ guys like Garnett, Gasol & Green, and key to why they’ve won DPOYs.

Ben would be excellent defensively in any era, but you’re not going to be able to have effectiveness like the ‘03-04 Pistons had by playing precisely the same way now that the game is dominated by pace and space.


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Sure, I suppose that’s fair.

I guess I wasn’t trying to suggest that he’s the greatest *conceivable* defender in the modern era.

I actually don’t have much of a recollection of how Ben was as a communicator either way. He certainly didn’t strike me as a low IQ guy though. In fact, I’d argue that how little he tried to do on offense at least indicates that he was largely aware of and willing to accept his own limitations.

I guess my larger point is I see Ben as a player with Gobert type rim protection (perhaps a bit less) who isn’t nearly as likely to be targeted or exploited on the perimeter and that’s a pretty huge thing.

I’d say the only player I can think of offhand who combined Ben’s agility and rim protection with that defensive quarterbacking ability you mentioned would be Bill Russell.

Garnett has the agility and IQ but I don’t see him as the same kind of rim protector/shot blocker (doesn’t mean he still can’t be better defensively overall tho). Hakeem has perhaps even more agility and rim protection but I don’t see him as any more of a QB type. Same deal with Robinson (who was also perhaps a bit less nimble).

Fwiw I think even Gobert is still the clearly better player than Ben but that’s because of his offense.

gobert doesnt really seem to get exposed in the perimeter as much as his team does when gobert is forced to leave the paint

but i may be wrong, i am going off memory rather than data here

Oh yeah to be clear I agree with that.

Gobert’s woes re: defending in space have definitely been overblown.

I was more trying to highlight Wallace’s strengths rather than downplay Rudy’s effectiveness.

[homecourtloss]

Green...but a much more interesting comparison would be peak Draymond Green versus peak Bill Laimbeer...

Draymond is tiers ahead of Bill Laimbeer who was a very good player and ahead of his time.

[SHAQ32]

Relative to their eras, Ben was better. Come on now.

Ben shouldn’t have as many [DPOYs] as he does and Green should have more.

Funny you mention should and shouldn't have in a thread mentioning Draymond Green. Because it's very likely, he makes the hall. But ask yourself, is Draymond hall material on any other team without Steph and Klay?

[70sFan]

Relative to their eras, Ben was better. Come on now.

Ben shouldn’t have as many [DPOYs] as he does and Green should have more.

Funny you mention should and shouldn't have in a thread mentioning Draymond Green. Because it's very likely, he makes the hall. But ask yourself, is Draymond hall material on any other team without Steph and Klay?

Yes, because his defense is not related to Steph and Klay.

[tmorgan]

Two of my all-time favorite players. The consensus here seems to be Green, primarily because of Ben’s offensive issues.

One thing I haven’t seen stressed: Wallace was a tremendous offensive rebounder. Yeah, he sucked doing anything but dunking the ball, but he didn’t screw up the Pistons’ offense because you absolutely had to have a guy on him or he’d eat you alive with extra possessions. He could pass well enough, didn’t try to score much, and set heavy screens.

Draymond can do a lot more, of course, but there’s a reason Wallace’s acquisition made the Pistons a real team, pre-Sheed.

[Reservoirdawgs]

Relative to their eras, Ben was better. Come on now.

Not at all clear to me. He has the DPOY lead but he shouldn’t have as many as he does and Green should have more.

I don't disagree that Dray should have more DPOY, but why do you say Ben shouldn't have as many as he does? I understand that he was winning when Duncan was also putting on a defensive clinic, but were there any instances where Ben would be considered undeserving?

[Jaivl]

Relative to their eras, Ben was better. Come on now.

Not at all clear to me. He has the DPOY lead but he shouldn’t have as many as he does and Green should have more.

I don't disagree that Dray should have more DPOY, but why do you say Ben shouldn't have as many as he does? I understand that he was winning when Duncan was also putting on a defensive clinic, but were there any instances where Ben would be considered undeserving?

FWIW this is what RAPM thinks (not adjusting for minutes, fwiw). Not exactly undeserved, but Duncan was probably a more accurate choice most years.

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[SinceGatlingWasARookie]

Draymond had injury problems. His shooting was crap. But Draymond still got his 6 assists per game on the scrap heap 2020 Warriors.

[Curmudgeon]

Green easily. Way better passer. And guys like Wallace who can't make free throws drive me up a wall.