ImageImageImageImageImage

Political Roundtable Part XXX

Moderators: LyricalRico, nate33, montestewart

montestewart
Forum Mod - Wizards
Forum Mod - Wizards
Posts: 14,829
And1: 7,963
Joined: Feb 25, 2009

Re: Political Roundtable Part XXX 

Post#1361 » by montestewart » Tue Mar 15, 2022 5:18 pm

Zonkerbl wrote:So here we are 20 days after Putin's apparently very ill-advised invasion of Ukraine. I suspect the Russians were assuming they would face the same amount of resistance they did during the first invasion of Crimea in 2014, so expected to just storm in with a bunch of old soviet era tanks with just enough fuel to reach Kyiv. In retrospect it seems obvious that Ukraine would harden themselves to another tank invasion and prepare by buying a bunch of anti-tank weapons from the US and other friendly EU nations and gaming out how they would slow down/stop another tank attack. Which they've done.

What's next? I imagine Putin sent all his best tanks, so I doubt he has anything in reserve that is not rickety and easily destroyed by anti-tank missiles. He can mount a marine invasion from the Black Sea, which is risky if Ukraine can purchase anti-ship systems from the EU in time. He can indiscriminately bomb Kyiv and other urban areas he's trying to take over, although we know from WWII that indiscriminately bombing cities without having a specific military target in mind accomplishes exactly nothing, except making the people who live there extremely angry at you. Putin could use chemical weapons but that would probably result in the US and NATO jumping in, which is a fight he knows he can't win (especially now that he realizes his military is no match for Western weapons). Or he could use nukes, with the same effect of drawing US/NATO in and also obliterating the cities he eventually wants to own.

Also apparently Germany is willing to boycott Russian natural gas purchases? If that's true that's pretty huge. I'll believe it when I see it of course, they are just extraordinarily dependent on Russian natural gas.

Anyway, I'm calling it - I think Putin's already lost. In addition, all the successful propaganda campaigns he pursued in the US and the EU to get right wingers to buy into his BS went up in a puff of smoke 20 days ago. He spent all his political capital on this one moment and it was an enormous bust. Sucks to be him.

You’d think he might have learned something from the invasion of Afghanistan. Maybe someday the U.S. can invade the Ukraine and show him how to do it right.
User avatar
pancakes3
General Manager
Posts: 9,593
And1: 3,023
Joined: Jul 27, 2003
Location: Virginia
Contact:

Re: Political Roundtable Part XXX 

Post#1362 » by pancakes3 » Wed Mar 16, 2022 3:56 pm

Zonkerbl wrote:So here we are 20 days after Putin's apparently very ill-advised invasion of Ukraine. I suspect the Russians were assuming they would face the same amount of resistance they did during the first invasion of Crimea in 2014, so expected to just storm in with a bunch of old soviet era tanks with just enough fuel to reach Kyiv. In retrospect it seems obvious that Ukraine would harden themselves to another tank invasion and prepare by buying a bunch of anti-tank weapons from the US and other friendly EU nations and gaming out how they would slow down/stop another tank attack. Which they've done.

What's next? I imagine Putin sent all his best tanks, so I doubt he has anything in reserve that is not rickety and easily destroyed by anti-tank missiles. He can mount a marine invasion from the Black Sea, which is risky if Ukraine can purchase anti-ship systems from the EU in time. He can indiscriminately bomb Kyiv and other urban areas he's trying to take over, although we know from WWII that indiscriminately bombing cities without having a specific military target in mind accomplishes exactly nothing, except making the people who live there extremely angry at you. Putin could use chemical weapons but that would probably result in the US and NATO jumping in, which is a fight he knows he can't win (especially now that he realizes his military is no match for Western weapons). Or he could use nukes, with the same effect of drawing US/NATO in and also obliterating the cities he eventually wants to own.

Also apparently Germany is willing to boycott Russian natural gas purchases? If that's true that's pretty huge. I'll believe it when I see it of course, they are just extraordinarily dependent on Russian natural gas.

Anyway, I'm calling it - I think Putin's already lost. In addition, all the successful propaganda campaigns he pursued in the US and the EU to get right wingers to buy into his BS went up in a puff of smoke 20 days ago. He spent all his political capital on this one moment and it was an enormous bust. Sucks to be him.


Oh, Putin def lost.

Read on Twitter
Bullets -> Wizards
User avatar
pancakes3
General Manager
Posts: 9,593
And1: 3,023
Joined: Jul 27, 2003
Location: Virginia
Contact:

Re: Political Roundtable Part XXX 

Post#1363 » by pancakes3 » Wed Mar 16, 2022 3:56 pm

Also in bipartisan lawmaking news

Read on Twitter
Bullets -> Wizards
Wizardspride
RealGM
Posts: 17,469
And1: 11,670
Joined: Nov 05, 2004
Location: Olney, MD/Kailua/Kaneohe, HI
       

Re: Political Roundtable Part XXX 

Post#1364 » by Wizardspride » Wed Mar 16, 2022 5:33 pm

Read on Twitter
?t=zWa4tbxtansACEuNQwJbNg&s=19


Read on Twitter
?t=zNhEmYZ94CEWHmBdeICIdA&s=19

President Donald Trump referred to African countries, Haiti and El Salvador as "shithole" nations during a meeting Thursday and asked why the U.S. can't have more immigrants from Norway.
dckingsfan
RealGM
Posts: 35,213
And1: 20,633
Joined: May 28, 2010

Re: Political Roundtable Part XXX 

Post#1365 » by dckingsfan » Wed Mar 16, 2022 5:38 pm

Spoiler:
Wizardspride wrote:
Read on Twitter


Read on Twitter

Yup - Ds don't have a majority as much as they would like to think so... 48 - 52.
Pointgod
RealGM
Posts: 24,204
And1: 24,503
Joined: Jun 28, 2014

Re: Political Roundtable Part XXX 

Post#1366 » by Pointgod » Wed Mar 16, 2022 9:03 pm

pancakes3 wrote:Also in bipartisan lawmaking news

Read on Twitter


You have to pretty much be a raging **** to be against this.
Zonkerbl
Retired Mod
Retired Mod
Posts: 9,115
And1: 4,777
Joined: Mar 24, 2010
       

Re: Political Roundtable Part XXX 

Post#1367 » by Zonkerbl » Wed Mar 16, 2022 10:07 pm

My twitter timeline is flipping out over Candace Owens saying Ukraine didn't exist as a country separate from Russia until 1989. So fricking what? It's true, but so also were Hitler's claims that the Sudetenland used to be part of Germany [edit: had a lot of German speakers in it]. It's one of those "explains but does not excuse" situations.
I've been taught all my life to value service to the weak and powerless.
User avatar
pancakes3
General Manager
Posts: 9,593
And1: 3,023
Joined: Jul 27, 2003
Location: Virginia
Contact:

Re: Political Roundtable Part XXX 

Post#1368 » by pancakes3 » Wed Mar 16, 2022 11:22 pm

i can't believe people are still paying attention to what she has to say.
Bullets -> Wizards
AFM
RealGM
Posts: 12,640
And1: 8,874
Joined: May 25, 2012
   

Re: Political Roundtable Part XXX 

Post#1369 » by AFM » Wed Mar 16, 2022 11:37 pm

Important message:
Zonkerbl
Retired Mod
Retired Mod
Posts: 9,115
And1: 4,777
Joined: Mar 24, 2010
       

Re: Political Roundtable Part XXX 

Post#1370 » by Zonkerbl » Thu Mar 17, 2022 12:04 am

AFM wrote:Important message:


Holy f@#$ing sh#$
I've been taught all my life to value service to the weak and powerless.
AFM
RealGM
Posts: 12,640
And1: 8,874
Joined: May 25, 2012
   

Re: Political Roundtable Part XXX 

Post#1371 » by AFM » Thu Mar 17, 2022 6:39 am

Zonkerbl wrote:
AFM wrote:Important message:


Holy f@#$ing sh#$

In case you want to see their reaction:





Dude is a RW troll and trolls meetings daily but hes very funny :lol: :lol: :lol:
User avatar
doclinkin
RealGM
Posts: 15,156
And1: 6,884
Joined: Jul 26, 2004
Location: .wizuds.

Re: Political Roundtable Part XXX 

Post#1372 » by doclinkin » Thu Mar 17, 2022 9:37 am

Zonkerbl wrote:So here we are 20 days after Putin's apparently very ill-advised invasion of Ukraine. I suspect the Russians were assuming they would face the same amount of resistance they did during the first invasion of Crimea in 2014, so expected to just storm in with a bunch of old soviet era tanks with just enough fuel to reach Kyiv. In retrospect it seems obvious that Ukraine would harden themselves to another tank invasion and prepare by buying a bunch of anti-tank weapons from the US and other friendly EU nations and gaming out how they would slow down/stop another tank attack. Which they've done.

What's next? I imagine Putin sent all his best tanks, so I doubt he has anything in reserve that is not rickety and easily destroyed by anti-tank missiles. He can mount a marine invasion from the Black Sea, which is risky if Ukraine can purchase anti-ship systems from the EU in time. He can indiscriminately bomb Kyiv and other urban areas he's trying to take over, although we know from WWII that indiscriminately bombing cities without having a specific military target in mind accomplishes exactly nothing, except making the people who live there extremely angry at you. Putin could use chemical weapons but that would probably result in the US and NATO jumping in, which is a fight he knows he can't win (especially now that he realizes his military is no match for Western weapons). Or he could use nukes, with the same effect of drawing US/NATO in and also obliterating the cities he eventually wants to own.

Also apparently Germany is willing to boycott Russian natural gas purchases? If that's true that's pretty huge. I'll believe it when I see it of course, they are just extraordinarily dependent on Russian natural gas.

Anyway, I'm calling it - I think Putin's already lost. In addition, all the successful propaganda campaigns he pursued in the US and the EU to get right wingers to buy into his BS went up in a puff of smoke 20 days ago. He spent all his political capital on this one moment and it was an enormous bust. Sucks to be him.


That's where Putin becomes even more dangerous. He has turned this into a moral crusade, the endgame of a lifetime of power manipulations, to re-win World War 2 and roll back glasnost and perestroika. He's entering his 70's and has no retirement plan other than world domination, or leastways control of everything he believes Russia deserves. He doesn't have to care about the opinions or suffering of Russian people, he can arrest them if they are loud and unhappy. He believes his own propaganda. Getting high on his own supply, as one headline had it. How does he salvage a win out of this? He has no grounds to retreat, only to double down. No terrible options are off the table. Nuclear extortion. Mass civilian casualties. All out cyberwar. Further interference in democratic elections. Assassinations. Etc. The only pushback has come from his billionaire countrymen. And even then, he can simply squeeze them out, seize whatever assets they have. His recent quotes suggest he's ready to go full Stalin within his own borders. With especially bitter invective towards oligarchs who criticize him.

"Of course they (the West) will try to bet on the so-called fifth column, on traitors - on those who earn their money here, but live over there. Live, not in the geographical sense, but in the sense of their thoughts, their slavish thinking," he told government ministers, three weeks into Russia's war with Ukraine.

"Any people, and especially the Russian people, will always be able to distinguish the true patriots from the scum and the traitors, and just to spit them out like a midge that accidentally flew into their mouths."

Putin said the West was trying to divide Russia and provoke civil confrontation with the help of its "fifth column".

"And there is one aim - the destruction of Russia," he said, adding that Russia would repel such efforts.

"I am convinced that this natural and necessary self-cleansing of society will only strengthen our country, our solidarity, cohesion and readiness to meet any challenge."


His rhetoric is increasingly paranoid over the last few years. Unhinged. A Putin that has lost is one with nothing left to lose. His lifetime legacy is at stake. We have already heard him suggest Ukraine might have soon acquired weapons of mass destruction. I would not be surprised to hear him suggest that Western forces are secretly giving them these weapons. Etc. And suggest it is only right for Russia to use such weapons to 'defend' itself. Preemptively even. There is no check on his power within Russia. Failure, economic or otherwise makes him even more of a cornered rat. Unless someone inside his own power structure uses his own nefarious means against him, or he is able to be temporarily bribed with a salvaged win, a PR win, Putin will not end with a passive loss. Scorched earth is his exit plan. His overreach puts us all in jeopardy.
Ruzious
Retired Mod
Retired Mod
Posts: 47,909
And1: 11,582
Joined: Jul 17, 2001
       

Re: Political Roundtable Part XXX 

Post#1373 » by Ruzious » Thu Mar 17, 2022 11:47 am

doclinkin wrote:
Zonkerbl wrote:So here we are 20 days after Putin's apparently very ill-advised invasion of Ukraine. I suspect the Russians were assuming they would face the same amount of resistance they did during the first invasion of Crimea in 2014, so expected to just storm in with a bunch of old soviet era tanks with just enough fuel to reach Kyiv. In retrospect it seems obvious that Ukraine would harden themselves to another tank invasion and prepare by buying a bunch of anti-tank weapons from the US and other friendly EU nations and gaming out how they would slow down/stop another tank attack. Which they've done.

What's next? I imagine Putin sent all his best tanks, so I doubt he has anything in reserve that is not rickety and easily destroyed by anti-tank missiles. He can mount a marine invasion from the Black Sea, which is risky if Ukraine can purchase anti-ship systems from the EU in time. He can indiscriminately bomb Kyiv and other urban areas he's trying to take over, although we know from WWII that indiscriminately bombing cities without having a specific military target in mind accomplishes exactly nothing, except making the people who live there extremely angry at you. Putin could use chemical weapons but that would probably result in the US and NATO jumping in, which is a fight he knows he can't win (especially now that he realizes his military is no match for Western weapons). Or he could use nukes, with the same effect of drawing US/NATO in and also obliterating the cities he eventually wants to own.

Also apparently Germany is willing to boycott Russian natural gas purchases? If that's true that's pretty huge. I'll believe it when I see it of course, they are just extraordinarily dependent on Russian natural gas.

Anyway, I'm calling it - I think Putin's already lost. In addition, all the successful propaganda campaigns he pursued in the US and the EU to get right wingers to buy into his BS went up in a puff of smoke 20 days ago. He spent all his political capital on this one moment and it was an enormous bust. Sucks to be him.


That's where Putin becomes even more dangerous. He has turned this into a moral crusade, the endgame of a lifetime of power manipulations, to re-win World War 2 and roll back glasnost and perestroika. He's entering his 70's and has no retirement plan other than world domination, or leastways control of everything he believes Russia deserves. He doesn't have to care about the opinions or suffering of Russian people, he can arrest them if they are loud and unhappy. He believes his own propaganda. Getting high on his own supply, as one headline had it. How does he salvage a win out of this? He has no grounds to retreat, only to double down. No terrible options are off the table. Nuclear extortion. Mass civilian casualties. All out cyberwar. Further interference in democratic elections. Assassinations. Etc. The only pushback has come from his billionaire countrymen. And even then, he can simply squeeze them out, seize whatever assets they have. His recent quotes suggest he's ready to go full Stalin within his own borders. With especially bitter invective towards oligarchs who criticize him.

"Of course they (the West) will try to bet on the so-called fifth column, on traitors - on those who earn their money here, but live over there. Live, not in the geographical sense, but in the sense of their thoughts, their slavish thinking," he told government ministers, three weeks into Russia's war with Ukraine.

"Any people, and especially the Russian people, will always be able to distinguish the true patriots from the scum and the traitors, and just to spit them out like a midge that accidentally flew into their mouths."

Putin said the West was trying to divide Russia and provoke civil confrontation with the help of its "fifth column".

"And there is one aim - the destruction of Russia," he said, adding that Russia would repel such efforts.

"I am convinced that this natural and necessary self-cleansing of society will only strengthen our country, our solidarity, cohesion and readiness to meet any challenge."


His rhetoric is increasingly paranoid over the last few years. Unhinged. A Putin that has lost is one with nothing left to lose. His lifetime legacy is at stake. We have already heard him suggest Ukraine might have soon acquired weapons of mass destruction. I would not be surprised to hear him suggest that Western forces are secretly giving them these weapons. Etc. And suggest it is only right for Russia to use such weapons to 'defend' itself. Preemptively even. There is no check on his power within Russia. Failure, economic or otherwise makes him even more of a cornered rat. Unless someone inside his own power structure uses his own nefarious means against him, or he is able to be temporarily bribed with a salvaged win, a PR win, Putin will not end with a passive loss. Scorched earth is his exit plan. His overreach puts us all in jeopardy.

And while emotionally I agreed with Graham's comments encouraging Russians to assassinate Putin, those words might be used by Putin as part of an excuse to take every measure available to fight back against the US. It's one thing for people like us to make comments like that on a sports message board (which even emotional people like me didn't do, btw), but for a powerful politician to say that openly was a poor tactical decision.
"A common mistake that people make when trying to design something completely foolproof is to underestimate the ingenuity of complete fools." - Douglas Adams
Zonkerbl
Retired Mod
Retired Mod
Posts: 9,115
And1: 4,777
Joined: Mar 24, 2010
       

Re: Political Roundtable Part XXX 

Post#1374 » by Zonkerbl » Thu Mar 17, 2022 12:09 pm

Well, Trump tried to destroy democracy on his way out and he failed so I'm optimistic. Bullies like him don't have as much power as they think they do.

I do think he won't have nearly as much success propaganda-wise as he did before he showed his true war criminal face.
I've been taught all my life to value service to the weak and powerless.
dobrojim
RealGM
Posts: 17,012
And1: 4,154
Joined: Sep 16, 2004

Re: Political Roundtable Part XXX 

Post#1375 » by dobrojim » Thu Mar 17, 2022 2:36 pm

pancakes3 wrote:2) Ukraine is the reason for Nordstream 2. Russia was never happy with the fact that gas pipelines had to go through Ukraine, but really didn't like it when Zelensky came to power because the gas pipelines running through Ukraine to Europe are going to be more heavily taxed, and Russia can't exert control over Ukraine under a pro-NATO Ukraine. They lose tons of money, and Russia at this point is basically a petrol state like OPEC nations. They don't have manufacturing, IT, or any other meaningfully profitable industries. It's energy, then raw materials, and bullets.



Don't forgot they have a great extortion and racketeering sector.
A lot of what we call 'thought' is just mental activity

When you are accustomed to privilege, equality feels like oppression

Those who are convinced of absurdities, can be convinced to commit atrocities
Wizardspride
RealGM
Posts: 17,469
And1: 11,670
Joined: Nov 05, 2004
Location: Olney, MD/Kailua/Kaneohe, HI
       

Re: Political Roundtable Part XXX 

Post#1376 » by Wizardspride » Fri Mar 18, 2022 12:30 am

Read on Twitter
?t=LVn78MNexLnBbq-37GflFQ&s=19

President Donald Trump referred to African countries, Haiti and El Salvador as "shithole" nations during a meeting Thursday and asked why the U.S. can't have more immigrants from Norway.
User avatar
pancakes3
General Manager
Posts: 9,593
And1: 3,023
Joined: Jul 27, 2003
Location: Virginia
Contact:

Re: Political Roundtable Part XXX 

Post#1377 » by pancakes3 » Fri Mar 18, 2022 1:23 am

Read on Twitter
Bullets -> Wizards
AFM
RealGM
Posts: 12,640
And1: 8,874
Joined: May 25, 2012
   

Re: Political Roundtable Part XXX 

Post#1378 » by AFM » Fri Mar 18, 2022 9:46 pm

more bars

bsilver
Rookie
Posts: 1,104
And1: 593
Joined: Aug 09, 2005
Location: New Haven, CT

Re: Political Roundtable Part XXX 

Post#1379 » by bsilver » Sat Mar 19, 2022 1:11 pm

Pointgod wrote:
pancakes3 wrote:Also in bipartisan lawmaking news

Read on Twitter


You have to pretty much be a raging **** to be against this.

It's been a long time, but I remember my elementary age daughter (4th-6th grade) having to wait alone in the dark for the school bus. Fortunately we found a neighbor who allowed her to wait on their porch. But is was stressful for all for a while. Then, when DST ended, it was light again in the morning.

So, at the time I would definitely been against having permanent DST. I don't like the idea of young school children going to school in the dark.
There are three kinds of lies: lies, damned lies, and statistics — quote popularized by Mark Twain.
Zonkerbl
Retired Mod
Retired Mod
Posts: 9,115
And1: 4,777
Joined: Mar 24, 2010
       

Re: Political Roundtable Part XXX 

Post#1380 » by Zonkerbl » Sat Mar 19, 2022 2:40 pm

I just want to get rid of the time change
I've been taught all my life to value service to the weak and powerless.

Return to Washington Wizards