Regular season: 04 Garnett vs 22 Jokic

[dygaction]

What's the top 30 you're talking about?

They do not differ by much. You can use this:
https://theathletic.com/3137873/2022/02/23/the-nba-75-the-top-75-nba-players-of-all-time-from-mj-and-lebron-to-lenny-wilkens/
or ESPN's:
https://theathletic.com/3137873/2022/02/23/the-nba-75-the-top-75-nba-players-of-all-time-from-mj-and-lebron-to-lenny-wilkens/

If we take ESPN list, then here are players I'd consider below Garnett offensively:

Bill Russell - yeah, most likely
Tim Duncan - probably not, but Garnett was similar level
Hakeem Olajuwon - the same as Duncan, though his mediocre passing skills makes it interesting depending on roster structure
Karl Malone - peak-wise most likely
Moses Malone - probably not, but again, passing component is entertaining
David Robinson - the same level
Giannis Antetokumpo - probably not, in the same vain with Moses
John Havlicek - not sure about that one

That gives us 8 players you can argue that were lower than Garnett offensively for peaks. I know you will very strongly disagree with Giannis, but that's still 7 players. I would take him over Russell, Karl Malone, probably David Robinson and John Havlicek for peaks. Careers are different matter.

If we take the same top 30, here are the ones I'd consider Jokic over defensively:

Magic Johnson -maybe, it's close
Larry Bird - likely not, Bird was a better defender than Jokic
Kevin Durant - likely not
Steph Curry - maybe
Moses Malone - it's close, but I think Moses peaked higher on that end, I'll have to wait for playoffs to see Jokic defense this year though
Dirk Nowitzki - probably yes
Charles Barkley - most likely yes
Elgin Baylor - likely not, peak Baylor was quite good defender actually
Isiah Thomas - maybe, Thomas wasn't a great defender

That gives us 9 players, but I would exclude Bird, Durant and Baylor from that list.

I don't know, it looks close to me either way.

I think you are agreeing with me. I said KG's offense better than Russell, but should be bottom 5. Follow your thought, KG's good arguments are over Karl Malone (although Malone is a bigger volume scorer with higher efficiency), and reasonable argument over Havlicek and DRob.
For Jokic, I said he should be top 10 offensively and have an argument top 5. Seems you also agree his defense likely not bottom 5.

[dygaction]

What's the top 30 you're talking about?

I mean, going by RealGM's list I'd take Garnett's peak offense over... Russell, Ewing... and you can argue Drob, Hakeem, Duncan... but that's about it.

The point? There's none, I think.

If going by RealGM top 100 list, I'd consider Garnett's peak offense over:

Bill Russell
Tim Duncan
Hakeem Olajuwon
Karl Malone
David Robinson
Patrick Ewing

If we go with RealGM's peak list, I'd consider Garnett's peak offense over:

1963/64 Bill Russell
1993/94 Hakeem Olajuwon
1976/77 Bill Walton
1994/95 David Robinson
1989/90 Patrick Ewing

I don't think it's clear that Garnett is 2nd worst offensive player inside top 30, that's my point.

I think KG's offense argument over TD, Ewing, Dream, Malone and DRob can be made, but not very strong when you factor in consistency, resilience, and efficiency, but he is clearly above Russell. Unfortunately for KG, he was not as dominant as Russell on the defensive end, had much less talent around him, and needed to go throw much higher level of competition. Russell - Wilt. KG - TD, Dirk, Shaq, Kobe, LeBron, Wade...

[70sFan]

They do not differ by much. You can use this:
https://theathletic.com/3137873/2022/02/23/the-nba-75-the-top-75-nba-players-of-all-time-from-mj-and-lebron-to-lenny-wilkens/
or ESPN's:
https://theathletic.com/3137873/2022/02/23/the-nba-75-the-top-75-nba-players-of-all-time-from-mj-and-lebron-to-lenny-wilkens/

If we take ESPN list, then here are players I'd consider below Garnett offensively:

Bill Russell - yeah, most likely
Tim Duncan - probably not, but Garnett was similar level
Hakeem Olajuwon - the same as Duncan, though his mediocre passing skills makes it interesting depending on roster structure
Karl Malone - peak-wise most likely
Moses Malone - probably not, but again, passing component is entertaining
David Robinson - the same level
Giannis Antetokumpo - probably not, in the same vain with Moses
John Havlicek - not sure about that one

That gives us 8 players you can argue that were lower than Garnett offensively for peaks. I know you will very strongly disagree with Giannis, but that's still 7 players. I would take him over Russell, Karl Malone, probably David Robinson and John Havlicek for peaks. Careers are different matter.

If we take the same top 30, here are the ones I'd consider Jokic over defensively:

Magic Johnson -maybe, it's close
Larry Bird - likely not, Bird was a better defender than Jokic
Kevin Durant - likely not
Steph Curry - maybe
Moses Malone - it's close, but I think Moses peaked higher on that end, I'll have to wait for playoffs to see Jokic defense this year though
Dirk Nowitzki - probably yes
Charles Barkley - most likely yes
Elgin Baylor - likely not, peak Baylor was quite good defender actually
Isiah Thomas - maybe, Thomas wasn't a great defender

That gives us 9 players, but I would exclude Bird, Durant and Baylor from that list.

I don't know, it looks close to me either way.

I think you are agreeing with me. I said KG's offense better than Russell, but should be bottom 5. Follow your thought, KG's good arguments are over Karl Malone (although Malone is a bigger volume scorer with higher efficiency), and reasonable argument over Havlicek and DRob.
For Jokic, I said he should be top 10 offensively and have an argument top 5. Seems you also agree his defense likely not bottom 5.

I think Jokic is in the botton 5 actually. I'd have him over Steph, Charles and Dirk. Maybe Magic as well, but that's it.

[dygaction]

If we take ESPN list, then here are players I'd consider below Garnett offensively:

Bill Russell - yeah, most likely
Tim Duncan - probably not, but Garnett was similar level
Hakeem Olajuwon - the same as Duncan, though his mediocre passing skills makes it interesting depending on roster structure
Karl Malone - peak-wise most likely
Moses Malone - probably not, but again, passing component is entertaining
David Robinson - the same level
Giannis Antetokumpo - probably not, in the same vain with Moses
John Havlicek - not sure about that one

That gives us 8 players you can argue that were lower than Garnett offensively for peaks. I know you will very strongly disagree with Giannis, but that's still 7 players. I would take him over Russell, Karl Malone, probably David Robinson and John Havlicek for peaks. Careers are different matter.

If we take the same top 30, here are the ones I'd consider Jokic over defensively:

Magic Johnson -maybe, it's close
Larry Bird - likely not, Bird was a better defender than Jokic
Kevin Durant - likely not
Steph Curry - maybe
Moses Malone - it's close, but I think Moses peaked higher on that end, I'll have to wait for playoffs to see Jokic defense this year though
Dirk Nowitzki - probably yes
Charles Barkley - most likely yes
Elgin Baylor - likely not, peak Baylor was quite good defender actually
Isiah Thomas - maybe, Thomas wasn't a great defender

That gives us 9 players, but I would exclude Bird, Durant and Baylor from that list.

I don't know, it looks close to me either way.

I think you are agreeing with me. I said KG's offense better than Russell, but should be bottom 5. Follow your thought, KG's good arguments are over Karl Malone (although Malone is a bigger volume scorer with higher efficiency), and reasonable argument over Havlicek and DRob.
For Jokic, I said he should be top 10 offensively and have an argument top 5. Seems you also agree his defense likely not bottom 5.

I think Jokic is in the botton 5 actually. I'd have him over Steph, Charles and Dirk. Maybe Magic as well, but that's it.

Seems you missed IT. Not sure which year you rank as Moses peak but he never had a + DBPM in 20 years.
Lots of time, Jokic's defense has been misjudged by reputation, impression or eye testing. The stats and results show that Jokic has been a really good defender. Elite rebounding both offensive and defensive, quick hands, great intuition of positioning and passing lane, willing to move, and when he is on the court, the team has been winning offensively and defensively. Denver's defense is #14 in the league, ahead of Bucks. Has he also had 3 or more game winning blocks/steals this season?

[70sFan]

I think you are agreeing with me. I said KG's offense better than Russell, but should be bottom 5. Follow your thought, KG's good arguments are over Karl Malone (although Malone is a bigger volume scorer with higher efficiency), and reasonable argument over Havlicek and DRob.
For Jokic, I said he should be top 10 offensively and have an argument top 5. Seems you also agree his defense likely not bottom 5.

I think Jokic is in the botton 5 actually. I'd have him over Steph, Charles and Dirk. Maybe Magic as well, but that's it.

Seems you missed IT. Not sure which year you rank as Moses peak but he never had a + DBPM in 20 years.
Lots of time, Jokic's defense has been misjudged by reputation, impression or eye testing. The stats and results show that Jokic has been a really good defender. Elite rebounding both offensive and defensive, quick hands, great intuition of positioning and passing lane, willing to move, and when he is on the court, the team has been winning offensively and defensively. Denver's defense is #14 in the league, ahead of Bucks. Has he also had 3 or more game winning blocks/steals this season?

I didn't miss anything and Jokic's defensive improvement is real. I just can't be sure for now how real it really is. We have to come back with this discussion after playoffs, because last year Jokic was abused on defensive end (I know, teammates didn't help but most people don't mind attacking Gobert for the same reason - including you).

DBPM is useless stat, it doesn't provide any information about defensive impact. We actually have 1983 Sixers +/- and Moses had -7.4 rating on defense (+15.6 overall), which is shockingly better than what Jokic has been doing and he played on very strong team.

I didn't say that Jokic sucks on defense, but Garnett didn't suck on offensive either yet you keep downgrading him for that. I'd say that KG's offensive value is certainly stronger than Jokic's defensive value.

[dygaction]

I think Jokic is in the botton 5 actually. I'd have him over Steph, Charles and Dirk. Maybe Magic as well, but that's it.

Seems you missed IT. Not sure which year you rank as Moses peak but he never had a + DBPM in 20 years.
Lots of time, Jokic's defense has been misjudged by reputation, impression or eye testing. The stats and results show that Jokic has been a really good defender. Elite rebounding both offensive and defensive, quick hands, great intuition of positioning and passing lane, willing to move, and when he is on the court, the team has been winning offensively and defensively. Denver's defense is #14 in the league, ahead of Bucks. Has he also had 3 or more game winning blocks/steals this season?

I didn't miss anything and Jokic's defensive improvement is real. I just can't be sure for now how real it really is. We have to come back with this discussion after playoffs, because last year Jokic was abused on defensive end (I know, teammates didn't help but most people don't mind attacking Gobert for the same reason - including you).

DBPM is useless stat, it doesn't provide any information about defensive impact. We actually have 1983 Sixers +/- and Moses had -7.4 rating on defense (+15.6 overall), which is shockingly better than what Jokic has been doing and he played on very strong team.

I didn't say that Jokic sucks on defense, but Garnett didn't suck on offensive either yet you keep downgrading him for that. I'd say that KG's offensive value is certainly stronger than Jokic's defensive value.

I agree Jokic is on the boarderline bottom 5 among top 30, and your argument KG's offensive value is stronger than Jokic's defensive value in defense. Think about this way, with subpar defense, KG would be still an all star. With subpar offense (Capela/Gobert), Jokic could be a journey man or lose his job. However, elite offense value usually comes ahead of elite defense. That's why we have Curry, Magic, Barkley in top 30, but not Mutombo, Big Ben, Howard and even Ewing. Top 10 offensive players (e.g., Trae Young and Lillard) in the league are always max players, but top 10 defensive (Thybulle, Turner) may not. Top 10 ATG offensive players with longevity will likely all be in top 30, but several 10 defensive players are not.

[70sFan]

Seems you missed IT. Not sure which year you rank as Moses peak but he never had a + DBPM in 20 years.
Lots of time, Jokic's defense has been misjudged by reputation, impression or eye testing. The stats and results show that Jokic has been a really good defender. Elite rebounding both offensive and defensive, quick hands, great intuition of positioning and passing lane, willing to move, and when he is on the court, the team has been winning offensively and defensively. Denver's defense is #14 in the league, ahead of Bucks. Has he also had 3 or more game winning blocks/steals this season?

I didn't miss anything and Jokic's defensive improvement is real. I just can't be sure for now how real it really is. We have to come back with this discussion after playoffs, because last year Jokic was abused on defensive end (I know, teammates didn't help but most people don't mind attacking Gobert for the same reason - including you).

DBPM is useless stat, it doesn't provide any information about defensive impact. We actually have 1983 Sixers +/- and Moses had -7.4 rating on defense (+15.6 overall), which is shockingly better than what Jokic has been doing and he played on very strong team.

I didn't say that Jokic sucks on defense, but Garnett didn't suck on offensive either yet you keep downgrading him for that. I'd say that KG's offensive value is certainly stronger than Jokic's defensive value.

I agree Jokic is on the boarderline bottom 5 among top 30, and your argument KG's offensive value is stronger than Jokic's defensive value in defense. Think about this way, with subpar defense, KG would be still an all star. With subpar offense (Capela/Gobert), Jokic could be a journey man or lose his job. However, elite offense value usually comes ahead of elite defense. That's why we have Curry, Magic, Barkley in top 30, but not Mutombo, Big Ben, Howard and even Ewing. Top 10 offensive players (e.g., Trae Young and Lillard) in the league are always max players, but top 10 defensive (Thybulle, Turner) may not. Top 10 ATG offensive players with longevity will likely all be in top 30, but several 10 defensive players are not.

I don't agree with offense vs defense. We have Bill Russell as the GOAT candidate, despite him not being great offensive player. We have Hakeem and Duncan inside top 10 and they would barely fight for top 30 without their defense. I definitely have Ewing inside my top 30 by the way.

[dygaction]

I didn't miss anything and Jokic's defensive improvement is real. I just can't be sure for now how real it really is. We have to come back with this discussion after playoffs, because last year Jokic was abused on defensive end (I know, teammates didn't help but most people don't mind attacking Gobert for the same reason - including you).

DBPM is useless stat, it doesn't provide any information about defensive impact. We actually have 1983 Sixers +/- and Moses had -7.4 rating on defense (+15.6 overall), which is shockingly better than what Jokic has been doing and he played on very strong team.

I didn't say that Jokic sucks on defense, but Garnett didn't suck on offensive either yet you keep downgrading him for that. I'd say that KG's offensive value is certainly stronger than Jokic's defensive value.

I agree Jokic is on the boarderline bottom 5 among top 30, and your argument KG's offensive value is stronger than Jokic's defensive value in defense. Think about this way, with subpar defense, KG would be still an all star. With subpar offense (Capela/Gobert), Jokic could be a journey man or lose his job. However, elite offense value usually comes ahead of elite defense. That's why we have Curry, Magic, Barkley in top 30, but not Mutombo, Big Ben, Howard and even Ewing. Top 10 offensive players (e.g., Trae Young and Lillard) in the league are always max players, but top 10 defensive (Thybulle, Turner) may not. Top 10 ATG offensive players with longevity will likely all be in top 30, but several 10 defensive players are not.

I don't agree with offense vs defense. We have Bill Russell as the GOAT candidate, despite him not being great offensive player. We have Hakeem and Duncan inside top 10 and they would barely fight for top 30 without their defense. I definitely have Ewing inside my top 30 by the way.

We will never agree on Russell. To me he is great because of the numerous rings in an early pro league. A legend for sure but not sure how transferable. Hakeen and Duncan are elite two way players who can be reliable offensive hubs. Without that, their defense would not bring them to top 30 either. I don't have Hakeem in top 10 or Ewing in top 30.

[JordansBulls]

Jokic stats wise for sure, but then the league now is a lot different and is more about scoring than then.

[70sFan]

I agree Jokic is on the boarderline bottom 5 among top 30, and your argument KG's offensive value is stronger than Jokic's defensive value in defense. Think about this way, with subpar defense, KG would be still an all star. With subpar offense (Capela/Gobert), Jokic could be a journey man or lose his job. However, elite offense value usually comes ahead of elite defense. That's why we have Curry, Magic, Barkley in top 30, but not Mutombo, Big Ben, Howard and even Ewing. Top 10 offensive players (e.g., Trae Young and Lillard) in the league are always max players, but top 10 defensive (Thybulle, Turner) may not. Top 10 ATG offensive players with longevity will likely all be in top 30, but several 10 defensive players are not.

I don't agree with offense vs defense. We have Bill Russell as the GOAT candidate, despite him not being great offensive player. We have Hakeem and Duncan inside top 10 and they would barely fight for top 30 without their defense. I definitely have Ewing inside my top 30 by the way.

We will never agree on Russell. To me he is great because of the numerous rings in an early pro league. A legend for sure but not sure how transferable. Hakeen and Duncan are elite two way players who can be reliable offensive hubs. Without that, their defense would not bring them to top 30 either. I don't have Hakeem in top 10 or Ewing in top 30.

Well, if you don't have Ewing inside top 30 or Hakeem inside top 10 then I can understand your logic.

Russell won a ring in 1969, I wouldn't call that an "early pro league". Bill is the most transferable defender ever, he had no weaknesses in terms of skillset. His offensive game is also more suited to modern era, as he wasn't a good post player but would thrive in Adebayo role.

[Ryoga Hibiki]

What's the top 30 you're talking about?

I mean, going by RealGM's list I'd take Garnett's peak offense over... Russell, Ewing... and you can argue Drob, Hakeem, Duncan... but that's about it.

The point? There's none, I think.

If going by RealGM top 100 list, I'd consider Garnett's peak offense over:

Bill Russell
Tim Duncan
Hakeem Olajuwon
Karl Malone
David Robinson
Patrick Ewing

If we go with RealGM's peak list, I'd consider Garnett's peak offense over:

1963/64 Bill Russell
1993/94 Hakeem Olajuwon
1976/77 Bill Walton
1994/95 David Robinson
1989/90 Patrick Ewing

I don't think it's clear that Garnett is 2nd worst offensive player inside top 30, that's my point.

the problem of this kind of statements is that players might have a different role within an offense.
I think Garnett is near the bottom if you want him as the main creator, but would excel as a secondary or even tertiary guy, being almost ideal.

___
Sent from my Nokia 3210 using RealGM mobile app

[Ryoga Hibiki]

I think you are agreeing with me. I said KG's offense better than Russell, but should be bottom 5. Follow your thought, KG's good arguments are over Karl Malone (although Malone is a bigger volume scorer with higher efficiency), and reasonable argument over Havlicek and DRob.
For Jokic, I said he should be top 10 offensively and have an argument top 5. Seems you also agree his defense likely not bottom 5.

I think Jokic is in the botton 5 actually. I'd have him over Steph, Charles and Dirk. Maybe Magic as well, but that's it.

Seems you missed IT. Not sure which year you rank as Moses peak but he never had a + DBPM in 20 years.
Lots of time, Jokic's defense has been misjudged by reputation, impression or eye testing. The stats and results show that Jokic has been a really good defender. Elite rebounding both offensive and defensive, quick hands, great intuition of positioning and passing lane, willing to move, and when he is on the court, the team has been winning offensively and defensively. Denver's defense is #14 in the league, ahead of Bucks. Has he also had 3 or more game winning blocks/steals this season?

the whole thing about Jokic is how much you can actually protect him in the situation where he's exposed the most, in pick and roll.
If you can prove you can get away with that Jokic might even project as a top10 atg.
If not it might become the reason why Denver won't win it all.

___
Sent from my Nokia 3210 using RealGM mobile app

[dygaction]

I mean, going by RealGM's list I'd take Garnett's peak offense over... Russell, Ewing... and you can argue Drob, Hakeem, Duncan... but that's about it.

The point? There's none, I think.

If going by RealGM top 100 list, I'd consider Garnett's peak offense over:

Bill Russell
Tim Duncan
Hakeem Olajuwon
Karl Malone
David Robinson
Patrick Ewing

If we go with RealGM's peak list, I'd consider Garnett's peak offense over:

1963/64 Bill Russell
1993/94 Hakeem Olajuwon
1976/77 Bill Walton
1994/95 David Robinson
1989/90 Patrick Ewing

I don't think it's clear that Garnett is 2nd worst offensive player inside top 30, that's my point.

the problem of this kind of statements is that players might have a different role within an offense.
I think Garnett is near the bottom if you want him as the main creator, but would excel as a secondary or even tertiary guy, being almost ideal.

___
Sent from my Nokia 3210 using RealGM mobile app

but how many secondary or tertiary guys climbed up to the top? That will be in the groups of Pippen, Drexel, and McHale. Being able to carry the main creator role also means demanding double team and provide gravity. Of course he is better than them in defense, and that's why KG is in top 20 they are not. It is the offense that keeps KG out of many people's top 15.

[Ryoga Hibiki]

but how many secondary or tertiary guys climbed up to the top? That will be in the groups of Pippen, Drexel, and McHale. Being able to carry the main creator role also means demanding double team and provide gravity. Of course he is better than them in defense, and that's why KG is in top 20 they are not. It is the offense that keeps KG out of many people's top 15.

I understand but there are cases where a player who fills at all time level a complementary role adds more value than a less than elite primary creator. Or, at least, they would be in a similar tier.