2021-22 NBA Rookie Thread (part 6) - with ROY poll

[Vator]

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[MrBigShot]

through the entire regular season, the cavs DRTG with mobley on the floor is 108.6. their DRTG with mobley off the floor is 108.5 according to BBREF.

That's the best proof you could come up with?

ok i'll take your word for it then i guess.

What's up with Cavs fans in this thread and dismissing simple stats like defensive rating and raw win/loss? You don't get to dictate what metrics are or aren't relevant when they are convenient for you. Meanwhile other posters that have likely never watched more than like 3 games Cade has played are making him out to be a empty stats chucker with zero impact, even though we have proven to be absolutely atroooocious without him (and whitehops has posted offensive rating stats w and w/o him during this post all star break stretch where we've looked competitive most games with him)

Relax. This "Mobley for DPOY" narrative was never rooted in reality. He'll contend for it in the future, maybe even as soon as next year. I don't think i've ever heard someone make an excuse for a great defender by saying he's playing out of position. Scottie Barnes has essentially been defending players from every position this season. Mobley has been a major reason for the Cavs improvement this year, but realistically you have to bare in mind that Allen and Garland have both elevated their games to all star level.

P.S. Mobley is my pick for RoY.

[TheLand13]

What's up with Cavs fans in this thread and dismissing simple stats like defensive rating and raw win/loss? You don't get to dictate what metrics are or aren't relevant when they are convenient for you. Meanwhile other posters that have likely never watched more than like 3 games Cade has played are making him out to be a empty stats chucker with zero impact, even though we have proven to be absolutely atroooocious without him (and whitehops has posted offensive rating stats w and w/o him during this post all star break stretch where we've looked competitive most games with him)

I've dismissed defensive stats constantly, especially when they're being used without context and are being based on small sample sizes, and ESPECIALLY when only one is being used to judge someone's impact on that regard. You're going to have to do better than that, especially when you aren't even going through the effort of describing what said players are doing at that end that make them so effective on the floor.

And anyone who still thinks that about Cade shouldn't be taken seriously at this point. Stop responding to them. I watched that man torch my team, so you aren't going to hear me argue otherwise.

Relax. This "Mobley for DPOY" narrative was never rooted in reality. He'll contend for it in the future, maybe even as soon as next year. I don't think i've ever heard someone make an excuse for a great defender by saying he's playing out of position. Scottie Barnes has essentially been defending players from every position this season. Mobley has been a major reason for the Cavs improvement this year, but realistically you have to bare in mind that Allen and Garland have both elevated their games to all star level.

P.S. Mobley is my pick for RoY.

I myself am against the "Mobley for DPOY" narrative and have told people to cool their jets on it. My argument is that Mobley's the biggest reason for the Cavaliers turnaround on the defensive end of the floor (not overall, just their defense).

And it's not an excuse. It's literally what's happening. Mobley is a 215 pound skinny player who has spent the entire season playing PF, except for a couple of games. Now he's being tasked with guarding Joel Embiid for an entire game. Of course he's not going to have the same kind of impact. Bringing up Scottie Barnes is not only laughable but makes me wonder if you even understand what we're talking about. Give me a game where Barnes competently defends a center for the entire game and then we'll talk, until then that's a very weak retort.

PS: Mobley is also my pick for ROY, but I am also one of the people who don't think it's a one sided race and that both Barnes and Cade have very real chances of taking the award.

[billy_hoyle]

What's up with Cavs fans in this thread and dismissing simple stats like defensive rating and raw win/loss? You don't get to dictate what metrics are or aren't relevant when they are convenient for you. Meanwhile other posters that have likely never watched more than like 3 games Cade has played are making him out to be a empty stats chucker with zero impact, even though we have proven to be absolutely atroooocious without him (and whitehops has posted offensive rating stats w and w/o him during this post all star break stretch where we've looked competitive most games with him)

I've dismissed defensive stats constantly, especially when they're being used without context and are being based on small sample sizes, and ESPECIALLY when only one is being used to judge someone's impact on that regard. You're going to have to do better than that, especially when you aren't even going through the effort of describing what said players are doing at that end that make them so effective on the floor.

And anyone who still thinks that about Cade shouldn't be taken seriously at this point. Stop responding to them. I watched that man torch my team, so you aren't going to hear me argue otherwise.

Relax. This "Mobley for DPOY" narrative was never rooted in reality. He'll contend for it in the future, maybe even as soon as next year. I don't think i've ever heard someone make an excuse for a great defender by saying he's playing out of position. Scottie Barnes has essentially been defending players from every position this season. Mobley has been a major reason for the Cavs improvement this year, but realistically you have to bare in mind that Allen and Garland have both elevated their games to all star level.

P.S. Mobley is my pick for RoY.

I myself am against the "Mobley for DPOY" narrative and have told people to cool their jets on it. My argument is that Mobley's the biggest reason for the Cavaliers turnaround on the defensive end of the floor (not overall, just their defense).

And it's not an excuse. It's literally what's happening. Mobley is a 215 pound skinny player who has spent the entire season playing PF, except for a couple of games. Now he's being tasked with guarding Joel Embiid for an entire game. Of course he's not going to have the same kind of impact. Bringing up Scottie Barnes is not only laughable but makes me wonder if you even understand what we're talking about. Give me a game where Barnes competently defends a center for the entire game and then we'll talk, until then that's a very weak retort.

PS: Mobley is also my pick for ROY, but I am also one of the people who don't think it's a one sided race and that both Barnes and Cade have very real chances of taking the award.

Watched 90% of Scotties games this year. He's most definitely been the primary defender of C's in a number of games. He has his moments, but it generally looks like he's just trying to stay afloat. To me, he's better against PF and big wings.

[Statlanta]

That's the best proof you could come up with?

ok i'll take your word for it then i guess.

What's up with Cavs fans in this thread and dismissing simple stats like defensive rating and raw win/loss? You don't get to dictate what metrics are or aren't relevant when they are convenient for you. Meanwhile other posters that have likely never watched more than like 3 games Cade has played are making him out to be a empty stats chucker with zero impact,

His stats are eerily similar to Russell Westbrook and we know how Westbrook is treated in these streets.

[TheLand13]

What's up with Cavs fans in this thread and dismissing simple stats like defensive rating and raw win/loss? You don't get to dictate what metrics are or aren't relevant when they are convenient for you. Meanwhile other posters that have likely never watched more than like 3 games Cade has played are making him out to be a empty stats chucker with zero impact, even though we have proven to be absolutely atroooocious without him (and whitehops has posted offensive rating stats w and w/o him during this post all star break stretch where we've looked competitive most games with him)

I've dismissed defensive stats constantly, especially when they're being used without context and are being based on small sample sizes, and ESPECIALLY when only one is being used to judge someone's impact on that regard. You're going to have to do better than that, especially when you aren't even going through the effort of describing what said players are doing at that end that make them so effective on the floor.

And anyone who still thinks that about Cade shouldn't be taken seriously at this point. Stop responding to them. I watched that man torch my team, so you aren't going to hear me argue otherwise.

Relax. This "Mobley for DPOY" narrative was never rooted in reality. He'll contend for it in the future, maybe even as soon as next year. I don't think i've ever heard someone make an excuse for a great defender by saying he's playing out of position. Scottie Barnes has essentially been defending players from every position this season. Mobley has been a major reason for the Cavs improvement this year, but realistically you have to bare in mind that Allen and Garland have both elevated their games to all star level.

P.S. Mobley is my pick for RoY.

I myself am against the "Mobley for DPOY" narrative and have told people to cool their jets on it. My argument is that Mobley's the biggest reason for the Cavaliers turnaround on the defensive end of the floor (not overall, just their defense).

And it's not an excuse. It's literally what's happening. Mobley is a 215 pound skinny player who has spent the entire season playing PF, except for a couple of games. Now he's being tasked with guarding Joel Embiid for an entire game. Of course he's not going to have the same kind of impact. Bringing up Scottie Barnes is not only laughable but makes me wonder if you even understand what we're talking about. Give me a game where Barnes competently defends a center for the entire game and then we'll talk, until then that's a very weak retort.

PS: Mobley is also my pick for ROY, but I am also one of the people who don't think it's a one sided race and that both Barnes and Cade have very real chances of taking the award.

Watched 90% of Scotties games this year. He's most definitely been the primary defender of C's in a number of games. He has his moments, but it generally looks like he's just trying to stay afloat. To me, he's better against PF and big wings.

So in other words, it's generally gone poorly because he's playing out of position guarding people he's not supposed to be guarding? Who'da thunk it?

[PD28]

I've dismissed defensive stats constantly, especially when they're being used without context and are being based on small sample sizes, and ESPECIALLY when only one is being used to judge someone's impact on that regard. You're going to have to do better than that, especially when you aren't even going through the effort of describing what said players are doing at that end that make them so effective on the floor.

And anyone who still thinks that about Cade shouldn't be taken seriously at this point. Stop responding to them. I watched that man torch my team, so you aren't going to hear me argue otherwise.



I myself am against the "Mobley for DPOY" narrative and have told people to cool their jets on it. My argument is that Mobley's the biggest reason for the Cavaliers turnaround on the defensive end of the floor (not overall, just their defense).

And it's not an excuse. It's literally what's happening. Mobley is a 215 pound skinny player who has spent the entire season playing PF, except for a couple of games. Now he's being tasked with guarding Joel Embiid for an entire game. Of course he's not going to have the same kind of impact. Bringing up Scottie Barnes is not only laughable but makes me wonder if you even understand what we're talking about. Give me a game where Barnes competently defends a center for the entire game and then we'll talk, until then that's a very weak retort.

PS: Mobley is also my pick for ROY, but I am also one of the people who don't think it's a one sided race and that both Barnes and Cade have very real chances of taking the award.

Watched 90% of Scotties games this year. He's most definitely been the primary defender of C's in a number of games. He has his moments, but it generally looks like he's just trying to stay afloat. To me, he's better against PF and big wings.

So in other words, it's generally gone poorly because he's playing out of position guarding people he's not supposed to be guarding? Who'da thunk it?

In other words, he's willing and capable of guarding bigger players and does a solid job. He's being thrown into the fire by having to guard Jokic, KD, Tatum etc which we believe will help him develop. I don't disagree with the Cavs protecting him and helping him be more successful in his rookie season by giving him advantageous match ups - but no need to make Barnes look bad because he's not shying away from guarding C's and PG's.

[TheLand13]

Watched 90% of Scotties games this year. He's most definitely been the primary defender of C's in a number of games. He has his moments, but it generally looks like he's just trying to stay afloat. To me, he's better against PF and big wings.

So in other words, it's generally gone poorly because he's playing out of position guarding people he's not supposed to be guarding? Who'da thunk it?

In other words, he's willing and capable of guarding bigger players and does a solid job. He's being thrown into the fire by having to guard Jokic, KD, Tatum etc which we believe will help him develop. I don't disagree with the Cavs protecting him and helping him be more successful in his rookie season by giving him advantageous match ups - but no need to make Barnes look bad because he's not shying away from guarding C's and PG's.

Who's out here making Barnes look bad? A SF not being able to consistently guard a C well doesn't make them bad at all. LeBron in his prime couldn't even do that. There's no need to be overly sensitive. You can acknowledge your players faults without saying that they're bad, and I'm probably the only Cavaliers fan on this board who has consistently praised Barnes.

[whitehops]

i'd love for the media (or fans on here) to do away with the narrative that barnes and mobley contribute towards winning basketball while cade doesn't.

mobley and barnes both have negative on/off net ratings (not a knock on them at all - they're rookies). both of their teams have positive net ratings whether they are on the floor or not, just a bigger positive net rating when they're off the floor.

the pistons have a negative net rating whether cade is on the floor or not. they do, however, have a much better net rating when he's on the floor. it's -7.3 when he's on the floor (~26th in the league) but when he's not on the floor their net rating is -11.2, which is a couple points worse than the worst team in the league. they're also now just 2-14 in games cade doesn't play after their win against the magic tonight. for all of cade's inefficient shooting the pistons offense is 4.7 points better when he's on the floor.

i honestly can't wait until the "best of" season highlights come out so i can see how surprised people are at what cade can do. all-pro players like demar already know:

Read on Twitter

[Tripod]

Bey scored 51 pts tonight without Cade. Guess Cade has some help?

[everdiso]

I've dismissed defensive stats constantly, especially when they're being used without context and are being based on small sample sizes, and ESPECIALLY when only one is being used to judge someone's impact on that regard. You're going to have to do better than that, especially when you aren't even going through the effort of describing what said players are doing at that end that make them so effective on the floor.

And anyone who still thinks that about Cade shouldn't be taken seriously at this point. Stop responding to them. I watched that man torch my team, so you aren't going to hear me argue otherwise.



I myself am against the "Mobley for DPOY" narrative and have told people to cool their jets on it. My argument is that Mobley's the biggest reason for the Cavaliers turnaround on the defensive end of the floor (not overall, just their defense).

And it's not an excuse. It's literally what's happening. Mobley is a 215 pound skinny player who has spent the entire season playing PF, except for a couple of games. Now he's being tasked with guarding Joel Embiid for an entire game. Of course he's not going to have the same kind of impact. Bringing up Scottie Barnes is not only laughable but makes me wonder if you even understand what we're talking about. Give me a game where Barnes competently defends a center for the entire game and then we'll talk, until then that's a very weak retort.

PS: Mobley is also my pick for ROY, but I am also one of the people who don't think it's a one sided race and that both Barnes and Cade have very real chances of taking the award.

Watched 90% of Scotties games this year. He's most definitely been the primary defender of C's in a number of games. He has his moments, but it generally looks like he's just trying to stay afloat. To me, he's better against PF and big wings.

So in other words, it's generally gone poorly because he's playing out of position guarding people he's not supposed to be guarding? Who'da thunk it?

Scottie owned Jokic all down the stretch last game against him.

[pingpongrac]

i'd love for the media (or fans on here) to do away with the narrative that barnes and mobley contribute towards winning basketball while cade doesn't.

mobley and barnes both have negative on/off net ratings (not a knock on them at all - they're rookies). both of their teams have positive net ratings whether they are on the floor or not, just a bigger positive net rating when they're off the floor.

the pistons have a negative net rating whether cade is on the floor or not. they do, however, have a much better net rating when he's on the floor. it's -7.3 when he's on the floor (~26th in the league) but when he's not on the floor their net rating is -11.2, which is a couple points worse than the worst team in the league. they're also now just 2-14 in games cade doesn't play after their win against the magic tonight. for all of cade's inefficient shooting the pistons offense is 4.7 points better when he's on the floor.

i honestly can't wait until the "best of" season highlights come out so i can see how surprised people are at what cade can do. all-pro players like demar already know:

Read on Twitter

I think I know what you're getting at, but you can't say Mobley/Barnes don't contribute to winning as much as Cade because their teams are ~1 point per 100 possessions better with them off the floor while Detroit is 3 points better with Cade on the floor. A bit more context is required. Cleveland/Toronto are good teams that will win ~45 games and they have better players behind Mobley/Barnes while the Pistons probably won't hit 25 wins and they have the 2nd worst point differential in the league. When Mobley hits the bench, he is generally replaced by Love/Allen/Markkanen. When Barnes hits the bench, he is generally replaced by Boucher/Siakam/OG. When Cade hits the bench, he is generally replaced by Joseph/Hayes. Those are pretty big variables that contribute to on/off ratings.

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[PD28]

So in other words, it's generally gone poorly because he's playing out of position guarding people he's not supposed to be guarding? Who'da thunk it?

In other words, he's willing and capable of guarding bigger players and does a solid job. He's being thrown into the fire by having to guard Jokic, KD, Tatum etc which we believe will help him develop. I don't disagree with the Cavs protecting him and helping him be more successful in his rookie season by giving him advantageous match ups - but no need to make Barnes look bad because he's not shying away from guarding C's and PG's.

Who's out here making Barnes look bad? A SF not being able to consistently guard a C well doesn't make them bad at all. LeBron in his prime couldn't even do that. There's no need to be overly sensitive. You can acknowledge your players faults without saying that they're bad, and I'm probably the only Cavaliers fan on this board who has consistently praised Barnes.

Lol you're the one that said it's gone poorly because you assume he did bad. Just because Mobley doesn't have the body to guard stronger players yet doesn't mean the rest of his classmates can't do it. It's okay to point of Mobley faults out and that fact that he's being sheltered by his team from taking on tough assignments. It's okay to admit Allen made Mobley look better due to taking on the harder defensive assignment.

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[orlando_joe]

Bey scored 51 pts tonight without Cade. Guess Cade has some help?

yea joseph shooting 42% from 3...grant.. yea no help

[TheLand13]

Lol you're the one that said it's gone poorly because you assume he did bad. Just because Mobley doesn't have the body to guard stronger players yet doesn't mean the rest of his classmates can't do it. It's okay to point of Mobley faults out and that fact that he's being sheltered by his team from taking on tough assignments. It's okay to admit Allen made Mobley look better due to taking on the harder defensive assignment.

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...when have I ever denied that?

[PD28]

Lol you're the one that said it's gone poorly because you assume he did bad. Just because Mobley doesn't have the body to guard stronger players yet doesn't mean the rest of his classmates can't do it. It's okay to point of Mobley faults out and that fact that he's being sheltered by his team from taking on tough assignments. It's okay to admit Allen made Mobley look better due to taking on the harder defensive assignment.

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...when have I ever denied that?

The last statement is to most of the Cavs fans in this thread denying Allen's career year on the defensive end to prop up Mobley even more. The first statement still applies to you tho, Scottie has done a solid job on centers this year despite the foul trouble it can land him in.

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[TheLand13]

Lol you're the one that said it's gone poorly because you assume he did bad. Just because Mobley doesn't have the body to guard stronger players yet doesn't mean the rest of his classmates can't do it. It's okay to point of Mobley faults out and that fact that he's being sheltered by his team from taking on tough assignments. It's okay to admit Allen made Mobley look better due to taking on the harder defensive assignment.

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...when have I ever denied that?

The last statement is to most of the Cavs fans in this thread denying Allen's career year on the defensive end to prop up Mobley even more. The first statement still applies to you tho, Scottie has done a solid job on centers this year despite the foul trouble it can land him in.

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You're not going to hear me deny Allen's defensive impact on the floor. But since you aren't the first one to vouch for Barnes, I'll take your word for it and eat crow for it.

[reanimator]

Bey scored 51 pts tonight without Cade. Guess Cade has some help?

yea joseph shooting 42% from 3...grant.. yea no help

Corey Joseph... do you hear yourself? If thats the case then Orlando is loaded.

Cade doesn't have much help BUT the groans were loudest pre January when guys like Bey and Stewart were just plain abysmal. Luckily, they've started to play to the expectations most people had of them preseason.

[orlando_joe]

Bey scored 51 pts tonight without Cade. Guess Cade has some help?

yea joseph shooting 42% from 3...grant.. yea no help

Corey Joseph... do you hear yourself? If thats the case then Orlando is loaded.

Cade doesn't have much help BUT the groans were loudest pre January when guys like Bey and Stewart were just plain abysmal. Luckily, they've started to play to the expectations most people had of them preseason.

no player on magic shoots 42% from 3? loaded? ok

[Madhouse]

i'd love for the media (or fans on here) to do away with the narrative that barnes and mobley contribute towards winning basketball while cade doesn't.

mobley and barnes both have negative on/off net ratings (not a knock on them at all - they're rookies). both of their teams have positive net ratings whether they are on the floor or not, just a bigger positive net rating when they're off the floor.

the pistons have a negative net rating whether cade is on the floor or not. they do, however, have a much better net rating when he's on the floor. it's -7.3 when he's on the floor (~26th in the league) but when he's not on the floor their net rating is -11.2, which is a couple points worse than the worst team in the league. they're also now just 2-14 in games cade doesn't play after their win against the magic tonight. for all of cade's inefficient shooting the pistons offense is 4.7 points better when he's on the floor.

i honestly can't wait until the "best of" season highlights come out so i can see how surprised people are at what cade can do. all-pro players like demar already know:

Read on Twitter

He impacts winning.