2021-22 NBA Rookie Thread (part 6) - with ROY poll

[Vampirate]

True but no one also expected Barnes to be this good of a scorer. Mobley was touted higher than him because of his defense but also because Barnes was supposed to be a negative on offense.

And to be fair, the offensive gap between Barnes & Mobley is greater than the defensive gap between Mobley & Barnes.

No, it's not.

Mobley's actually receiving all defense consideration. Barnes isn't close to being within that company. Meanwhile Barnes is barely ahead of Mobley in scoring. It's not a big gap.

To show you how misleading what your saying is, if I was a fan not looking at the advanced stats i'd say Mobley has a slight edge over Barnes in defense as Barnes averages more steals but Mobley averages more blocks. At the surface level Mobley 'seems' to have a minor edge here.

I'm just demonstrating how you need to view things beyond PPG and even TS%

Pre All Star Break and for a long while during the season i'd agree with you, Barnes isn't in the same convo as Mobley as a defender.

However just the same Mobley isn't in the same convo as Barnes as a complete offensive player. You really need to look at the stats beyond just scoring here.

Barnes is a much better facilitator/playmaker than Mobley (Barnes averages less turnovers and more assists than Mobley it isn't close here) and is the better offensive rebounder (0.5 more offensive rebounds). Another way to think about this is if Mobley's offensive impact was close to Barnes impact he'd be running away with the ROY no questions asked.

Again, pre All Star break Mobley's overall offensive impact was much closer, now it isn't.


Their advanced stats as of now, take it for what you will.

[Madhouse]

True but no one also expected Barnes to be this good of a scorer. Mobley was touted higher than him because of his defense but also because Barnes was supposed to be a negative on offense.

And to be fair, the offensive gap between Barnes & Mobley is greater than the defensive gap between Mobley & Barnes.

No, it's not.

Mobley's actually receiving all defense consideration. Barnes isn't close to being within that company. Meanwhile Barnes is barely ahead of Mobley in scoring. It's not a big gap.

That can't be the reason because Barnes also dominated Denver.

And you are right, it's very likely that Mobley wins ROY but it should not be very likely because Barnes has been the most impactful rookie as of late, post ASB, and it has not been very close. He has upped his defense significantly where as Mobley was playing DPOY defense back in December but could not sustain that level. The Raptors defense as of late with Barnes on the floor has been stout and better than the Cavs defense with Mobley on the floor.

Recency bias my friend. I doubt he even remembers that.

Also, I don't understand this argument. Let's say for the sake of argument (I'm not saying it is or isn't true, just for hypothetical purposes) that Barnes has in fact been the more impactful rookie since the ASG. That's not a very big sample size compared to everything that happened beforehand, where Mobley was basically the runaway rookie of the year.

Now onto the actual argument part. Since Allen has gone down with injury, Mobley's stats and role on the team has changed dramatically. He just had a 30 point game as the leading scorer in a close win and now he just played a crucial role in beating the Nuggets with a 27/11/2 game, including a few key buckets in overtime. Mobley's reason for being a favorite has changed dramatically as well. Before, it was due to his elite defense (which is superior to Barnes). Now, he's proving he can be a pretty dangerous scorer on top of that. This idea that we're supposed to discredit that because it's mostly happening due to Garland and co setting him up for those opportunities is nonsense. If it were that simple, it would be just as simple to put a stop to. Mobley has been averaging 20/10 since Allen went down with injury, as the second option on offense keep in mind. Someone who is able to put up those kinds of numbers is clearly capable of being a very good, perhaps even elite, offensive player, especially at age 20 while playing the center position on such a skinny frame.

I am one of the people who actually did support the argument that the gap was in fact a lot closer than people made it out to be. I was one of the people who laughed at those who claimed this was Mobley's to lose and that there's no one with an argument of being more deserving than him. But Mobley demonstrating that he is able to be a consistently dominant second option on offense (assuming this keeps up for the duration of which Allen is out, which will be until right before playoffs I believe) to me seals it for Mobley. At this point I just can't for the life of me see how Barnes deserves consideration over Mobley. And that is not a knock on Barnes, who I would LOVE to have on our team. What Mobley's doing right now is just that good.

Oh and by the way, Mobley's still playing pretty damn good defense.

They are only close in scoring because Mobley gets spoon fed by Garland where as Barnes creates his own offense. Offensive skill wise it's not close.

And I can't for the life of me understand how Mobley deserves consideration the way Barnes is playing right now averaging an absurd 57% FG with a 4.1 BPM post ASG where as Mobley is barely above 1. See how easy that is?

Barnes is just that good.

Mobley has been good and despite his scoring outburst without Allen, Barnes has been much more impactful lately.



I can still understand (somewhat) giving Mobley ROY because Barnes had a terrible month in January but who the better player is right now is not really a question.

[TheLand13]

They are only close in scoring because Mobley gets spoon fed by Garland where as Barnes creates his own offense. Offensive skill wise it's not close.

You haven't been watching Mobley play a lot if you think it's not close skill wise. Mobley's actually very skilled on the offensive end. He's capable of running the offense well for a big man, has pretty good handles and has a very nice touch around the rim. His biggest problem (apart from his frame, which doesn't factor into offensive skill) is that he has a tendency to fumble the ball or just straight up lose it without anyone even swiping at it. There've been a lot of times where I've watched him fumble a basic pass.

Also, this is a very poor argument. So because Mobley gets a lot of his offense through the help of others, we should discredit the fact that they are literally less than a point within in each other for PPG right now? Again, Mobley is getting this points for a reason. If he wasn't as skilled offensively as you claim he is, he wouldn't be generating them at the rate he is. Positioning and timing are both offensive skills that Mobley has proven himself to be excellent at. There's more to that end than just being able to shoot the ball and put up pretty stats.

And I can't for the life of me understand how Mobley deserves consideration the way Barnes is playing right now averaging an absurd 57% FG with a 4.1 BPM post ASG where as Mobley is barely above 1. See how easy that is?

How can people claim Barnes is close to Mobley defensively when Mobley has a D-EPM of 2.1 for the season while Barnes only has 0.1. See how easy that is?

Cherry picking stats won't help your case here.

Barnes is just that good.

Good for him, but once again, we don't go off of small sample sizes when determining ROY. Barnes has played in 13 games since the All Star Break. There are 82 games in the season. If a guy is playing better than you for the majority of the season, you're going to give the award to that guy. It's just that simple.

And no matter what you point out in regards to his offense, Barnes defense just isn't close to Mobley's.

Mobley has been good and despite his scoring outburst without Allen, Barnes has been much more impactful lately.

I can still understand (somewhat) giving Mobley ROY because Barnes had a terrible month in January but who the better player is right now is not really a question.

Um, yes it is. You're doing the same exact thing that Toronto fans spent months bitching about when Cavaliers fans did it with Mobley. Stop pretending it isn't close between the two. It's absurd to claim otherwise.

Both guys are playing incredible basketball right now. To try to discredit what Mobley's doing because of how he's getting his points? Completely laughable straw grasping that doesn't deserve to be taken seriously.

[tdotrep2]

once scottie gets main ball handling responsibilities, oooohhh boy gyaat

[LoveMyRaps]

True but no one also expected Barnes to be this good of a scorer. Mobley was touted higher than him because of his defense but also because Barnes was supposed to be a negative on offense.

And to be fair, the offensive gap between Barnes & Mobley is greater than the defensive gap between Mobley & Barnes.

No, it's not.

Mobley's actually receiving all defense consideration. Barnes isn't close to being within that company. Meanwhile Barnes is barely ahead of Mobley in scoring. It's not a big gap.

Come on man... using PPG to suggest the two players are close offensively is downright silly.
That's like saying Jalen Green (15.8ppg) is better than both Barnes and Mobley offensively.

Look at how both, Mobley & Barnes, get their points. One guy is set up right at the rim for easy baskets (which is an important skill as well) while the other has to create the majority of his shots and is able to score from anywhere on the court. Scottie can score at will in the paint, has a smooth mid range game, and can knock down 3s as well.

This is no knock on Mobley. He's already an amazing finisher at the rim, and I definitely think he'll eventually be able to create for himself (because he's shown flashes of it) but right now there is a significant gap between Barnes and Mobley offensively. Even aside from scoring, Barnes is the better playmaker/passer, has better handles, etc.

[bisme37]

It's easy to watch Mobley, Barnes or Cade and come away thinking one of them is the clear ROY. They're all awesome. Problem is while you were watching one of them, the others were also going off in games you weren't watching.

It's still too close to call for me.

Wagner is really impressive too btw, probably 4th on my list.

[PD28]

And to be fair, the offensive gap between Barnes & Mobley is greater than the defensive gap between Mobley & Barnes.

No, it's not.

Mobley's actually receiving all defense consideration. Barnes isn't close to being within that company. Meanwhile Barnes is barely ahead of Mobley in scoring. It's not a big gap.

Come on man... using PPG to suggest the two players are close offensively is downright silly.
That's like saying Jalen Green (15.8ppg) is better than both Barnes and Mobley offensively.

Look at how both, Mobley & Barnes, get their points. One guy is set up right at the rim for easy baskets (which is an important skill as well) while the other has to create the majority of his shots and is able to score from anywhere on the court. Scottie can score at will in the paint, has a smooth mid range game, and can knock down 3s as well.

This is no knock on Mobley. He's already an amazing finisher at the rim, and I definitely think he'll eventually be able to create for himself (because he's shown flashes of it) but right now there is a significant gap between Barnes and Mobley offensively. Even aside from scoring, Barnes is the better playmaker/passer, has better handles, etc.

I agree. Finishing lobs and dump offs for uncontested finishes at the rim is a great skill but isn't on the same tier as giving someone the ball and getting out of the way. Can anyone imagine how much more inflated Barnes' numbers would be if he played with a PG like Garland?

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[Vampirate]

TheLand13 you're really going to disregard my post.

And you're also really discrediting Barnes overall offensive impact he's had over the year, even when Barnes was playing on a bad knee to prop up Mobley here. You're using scoring only to compare offensive impact, which is just bad.

Since the start of the year Barnes has always been the better playmaker, offensive rebounder and as the season went on, more versatile scorer.

You will not see raptor fans, knowledgeable ones, arguing that Barnes defensive impact is the same as Mobley's but you can't admit Mobley's offensive impact is the same as Barnes.

[PD28]

It's easy to watch Mobley, Barnes or Cade and come away thinking one of them is the clear ROY. They're all awesome. Problem is while you were watching one of them, the others were also going off in games you weren't watching.

It's still too close to call for me.

Wagner is really impressive too btw, probably 4th on my list.

Wagner is going to even scarier if he can play next to someone who demands a double team. His offensive efficiency is bonkers and I think he could be even more dominant playing the 2/3 in the future.

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[Vampirate]

It's easy to watch Mobley, Barnes or Cade and come away thinking one of them is the clear ROY. They're all awesome. Problem is while you were watching one of them, the others were also going off in games you weren't watching.

It's still too close to call for me.

Wagner is really impressive too btw, probably 4th on my list.

I'll admit Cade's shooting percentages probably get better with better teammates, but his PPG likely drops, on the other hand, playing with better options, his assists might go up and his A/TO probably improves.

It's a bit tough to judge him overall.

[Madhouse]

You haven't been watching Mobley play a lot if you think it's not close skill wise. Mobley's actually very skilled on the offensive end. He's capable of running the offense well for a big man, has pretty good handles and has a very nice touch around the rim. His biggest problem (apart from his frame, which doesn't factor into offensive skill) is that he has a tendency to fumble the ball or just straight up lose it without anyone even swiping at it. There've been a lot of times where I've watched him fumble a basic pass.

Also, this is a very poor argument. So because Mobley gets a lot of his offense through the help of others, we should discredit the fact that they are literally less than a point within in each other for PPG right now? Again, Mobley is getting this points for a reason. If he wasn't as skilled offensively as you claim he is, he wouldn't be generating them at the rate he is. Positioning and timing are both offensive skills that Mobley has proven himself to be excellent at. There's more to that end than just being able to shoot the ball and put up pretty stats.

We shouldn't discredit that he is averaging a high PPG number but we should understand how this happens and how it projects for the future as far creating your own shot and not having to rely on others.

How can people claim Barnes is close to Mobley defensively when Mobley has a D-EPM of 2.1 for the season while Barnes only has 0.1. See how easy that is?

Cherry picking stats won't help your case here.

Not exactly sure where you get that from. For the entire season Mobley has been much better this season defensively (however Barnes has been catching up since the ASB), nobody will disagree with that.

Good for him, but once again, we don't go off of small sample sizes when determining ROY. Barnes has played in 13 games since the All Star Break. There are 82 games in the season. If a guy is playing better than you for the majority of the season, you're going to give the award to that guy. It's just that simple.

And no matter what you point out in regards to his offense, Barnes defense just isn't close to Mobley's.

That's where I disagree. Barnes and Mobley have been extremely even over the entire season and there is not really much that disproves this point.

Um, yes it is. You're doing the same exact thing that Toronto fans spent months bitching about when Cavaliers fans did it with Mobley. Stop pretending it isn't close between the two. It's absurd to claim otherwise.

Both guys are playing incredible basketball right now. To try to discredit what Mobley's doing because of how he's getting his points? Completely laughable straw grasping that doesn't deserve to be taken seriously.

Not sure why it's absurd. I said Barnes been playing the best since ASB and over the entire season it's really close between him, Mobley and Cade. That's where my opinion is. Given an entire season of sample size I'm fine with each winning ROY, my entire point is though that Mobley should not be running away with the award like you are claiming he should because he excels as the 2nd scoring option.

And yes, just like you are pointing the gap over the entire season in defensive metrics out, Mobley despite scoring at a similar clip is posting -1.3 OEPM and -2.7 ORaptor just showing what his offensive skillset is right now.

[BallerTalk]

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[whitehops]

in other news, the cavs and pistons play each other at 8 PM EST tonight for those that want to watch mobley and cade.

[whitehops]

Wagner is really impressive too btw, probably 4th on my list.

it's a shame he rarely gets mentioned recently because he is so solid. first of all you can tell he has a good bball IQ with all the smart little plays he makes. then you add his shooting, his ability to put the ball on the floor, his touch around the rim, etc. and that's not even considering his size, which makes it even more valuable.

when the magic get a legit primary ball handler wagner will be his best friend.

[Vampirate]

Wagner is really impressive too btw, probably 4th on my list.

it's a shame he rarely gets mentioned recently because he is so solid. first of all you can tell he has a good bball IQ with all the smart little plays he makes. then you add his shooting, his ability to put the ball on the floor, his touch around the rim, etc. and that's not even considering his size, which makes it even more valuable.

when the magic get a legit primary ball handler wagner will be his best friend.

Wagner imo is the most complete offensive rookie this year.

He just really doesn't have many holes in his game, scoring wise, he can pass too. He's also 6"10.

I'd be over the moon with him if I was a Magic fan.

[tmorgan]

There are some fun rookies in the upcoming draft… but next year’s rooks better be thankful there isn’t a traditional rookie/sophomore game for AS weekend. They’d get murrrrrderrred.

[Vampirate]

There are some fun rookies in the upcoming draft… but next year’s rooks better be thankful there isn’t a traditional rookie/sophomore game for AS weekend. They’d get murrrrrderrred.

Mobley - C
Cade - PG
Barnes - PF
Franz - SF
Green - SG

Bench: Kuminga, Suggs, Sengun, Giddey,

Yeah, have fun with that.

[Madhouse]

Wagner is really impressive too btw, probably 4th on my list.

it's a shame he rarely gets mentioned recently because he is so solid. first of all you can tell he has a good bball IQ with all the smart little plays he makes. then you add his shooting, his ability to put the ball on the floor, his touch around the rim, etc. and that's not even considering his size, which makes it even more valuable.

when the magic get a legit primary ball handler wagner will be his best friend.

Wagner has 50/40/90 potential.

[PhilBlackson]

Wagner is really impressive too btw, probably 4th on my list.

Long term, I'm taking Kuminga 4th.

[Madhouse]

Wagner is really impressive too btw, probably 4th on my list.

Long term, I'm taking Kuminga 4th.

I'm taking Jalen Green