Johnathan Isaac our best player?

[LewisnotMiller]

Whoever you guys get with your next first rounder has to make this discussion irrelevant.

So I guess the Celtics would take him off our hands?

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If it was that simple, probably. But even if he comes back in great shape (unfortunately a big 'if' after all this time) he's a superior defender only. Heck, a healthy Isaac would fit beautifully on our defence.

The contract is the issue, apart from the variance in how he'll come back.

I know this will sound trite, but I hope he comes back in good shape and you get one of those top 3 big men to pair with him. Add Wagner and you have an instant good front line. And it's not like you don't have young talent in the backcourt.

Overall the roster just looks a little messy, so I'd just focus on Wagner plus your top pick this year (who will be a good fit with him) and fit the rest around them as best you can. That could be a good start to a legit team.

[The Effect]

Whoever you guys get with your next first rounder has to make this discussion irrelevant.

So I guess the Celtics would take him off our hands?

Sent from my SM-G950U using RealGM mobile app

If it was that simple, probably. But even if he comes back in great shape (unfortunately a big 'if' after all this time) he's a superior defender only. Heck, a healthy Isaac would fit beautifully on our defence.

The contract is the issue, apart from the variance in how he'll come back.

I know this will sound trite, but I hope he comes back in good shape and you get one of those top 3 big men to pair with him. Add Wagner and you have an instant good front line. And it's not like you don't have young talent in the backcourt.

Overall the roster just looks a little messy, so I'd just focus on Wagner plus your top pick this year (who will be a good fit with him) and fit the rest around them as best you can. That could be a good start to a legit team.

If we get a top 3 and get either chet or jabari, Isaac is a backup for the resst of his tenure with orlando

Wendel\chet (or jabari) would man the PF\C roles the way bamba and wc have done this year, and Wagner is the SF.

For those 12 games Isaac will play in, he can help the bench not blow leads the way this years bench has

[PrimeThyme]

I think Franz is not only our best player, but he's someone I'm prepared to build around. A 6-10 forward with his skillset/IQ/feel for the game is a building block piece to me. I think a lot of people just haven't watched enough games this year, but he's been that good.

Spoiler:

Watch on YouTube

I mean seriously, this is the future people. Isaac is the past at this point.

[Skybox]

It's really not that important to me but, for the sake of your love of jousting...
-I don't think he was the most influential player, or team leader, or anything other than I know he was the best basketball player...by a mile. I also understand that doesn't make Vuc a superstar, just good, as reflected in our team's just good results and obvious ceiling-which led to the (correct) teardown.
-If the goal in the NBA is to outscore the other team, then the one guy who could reliably score is even more valuable. Adding defense to that reality makes a team potentially great...but that doesn't make Dennis Rodman more valuable than Michael Jordan.
-I hope Isaac (and MCW, for that matter) return and we have a Top 10 defense...but, without some offensive star power added...we might peek out of the basement, but that's as far as we'll get. Teams score 120 now...especially against us, but that's another story...we score a lot in those games too but it doesn't mean we have any offensive talent to speak of...it just means the other team needn't care about stopping us if they can just bombard us at will and put the game out of reach.

I love watching Isaac, Suggs, Wagner, I love what Bamba was supposed to have been. I love watching old Rodman and Pippen lockdown videos or Mutombu wagging his finger, Mourning contesting everything...but that's not today's NBA of KAT, Kyrie, Harden. I'm still supportive of the positional length thing too. I used to coach kids and creative, aggressive, "be the team nobody enjoys playing" is FUN to me...I love good defense - but it certainly doesn't devalue a great, versatile offensive player (who was also an underrated defender, IMO). This is way too much - Vuc is simply a far better player than Isaac. I would say that Isaac could be a very valuable piece on a better team (than our recent playoff teams), but it's not like Vuc was surrounded by greatness either. I like what we're building more than what we had, I just get triggered by the disregard for a guy who carried ORL, was recognized around the NBA, and was purchased by another franchise for a LARGE price.

Of course you care. That's why a conversation about Isaac devolved into a conversation about Vucevic. It's why you got "triggered" by praise for Isaac.

The use of "influential" was not referring to any personality characteristics. He was gifted an oversized role on the team for what seemed an eternity. A larger role isn't an inherently good thing. If a player is bad, then a larger role simply allows that player to do more damage. In the absence of better options, that might be a necessity, but that doesn't make their contributions any better.

This team was never good at any point in the Vucevic era. It ever so briefly topped out at average. But as I stated previously, it was only average because of the team's defense, for which you cannot credit Vucevic. Billy Donovan never coached a bad defense until he coached Vucevic. The best description of Vucevic's defense is ineffectual, but ineffectual is really bad when you are a center. The offense was always bad. I think we had one season in which it wasn't downright awful, so why invoke the names of players like KAT, Kyrie, or Harden? Those guys are all very good offensive players. Vucevic isn't.

Career TS added:
KAT: 1161.7
Kyrie: 695.7
Harden: 2325.4
Vucevic: -291.6

Allowing Vucevic to "carry" this franchise for so long was this franchise's gift to Vucevic, not the other way around. It got him two All Star invitations and it made him a boatload of money. Many better players come and go and never do receive the same good fortune. I'm not sure that Mo Wagner isn't among them, but don't confuse that as an endorsement of Wagner. In the end, Vucevic's greatest gift to this franchise was the haul we received in return for trading him away, but that is because Karnisovas seemed to share your view, for which I will be eternally grateful.

I remember Vuc saying he wanted to be like Damian Lillard and stay with one franchise. Of course he did, so he could make a ton of money and not a bunch of stress about winning.

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Great take

[Skybox]

Vucevic was definitely the most influential player on the roster, but that's an entirely different argument. The goal is to outscore the opposition, and to that end, Vucevic just isn't very good. Where does he fall in the pecking order in Chicago? That team is collapsing.

Per game numbers get you into All Star games, but they don't necessarily win you games. Kemba and Fournier replaced Elfrid and Bullock in NY. How did that work out for them?

Clifford rode that same horse last year and the roster had to be stripped for parts. What was the difference? The offense always sucked, but the defense was actually respectable when we had the right players available. When they all got hurt, we were back in the basement. We could have a top-10 defense right now if we had healthy versions of MCW and Isaac on the roster all season long.

It's really not that important to me but, for the sake of your love of jousting...
-I don't think he was the most influential player, or team leader, or anything other than I know he was the best basketball player...by a mile. I also understand that doesn't make Vuc a superstar, just good, as reflected in our team's just good results and obvious ceiling-which led to the (correct) teardown.
-If the goal in the NBA is to outscore the other team, then the one guy who could reliably score is even more valuable. Adding defense to that reality makes a team potentially great...but that doesn't make Dennis Rodman more valuable than Michael Jordan.
-I hope Isaac (and MCW, for that matter) return and we have a Top 10 defense...but, without some offensive star power added...we might peek out of the basement, but that's as far as we'll get. Teams score 120 now...especially against us, but that's another story...we score a lot in those games too but it doesn't mean we have any offensive talent to speak of...it just means the other team needn't care about stopping us if they can just bombard us at will and put the game out of reach.

I love watching Isaac, Suggs, Wagner, I love what Bamba was supposed to have been. I love watching old Rodman and Pippen lockdown videos or Mutombu wagging his finger, Mourning contesting everything...but that's not today's NBA of KAT, Kyrie, Harden. I'm still supportive of the positional length thing too. I used to coach kids and creative, aggressive, "be the team nobody enjoys playing" is FUN to me...I love good defense - but it certainly doesn't devalue a great, versatile offensive player (who was also an underrated defender, IMO). This is way too much - Vuc is simply a far better player than Isaac. I would say that Isaac could be a very valuable piece on a better team (than our recent playoff teams), but it's not like Vuc was surrounded by greatness either. I like what we're building more than what we had, I just get triggered by the disregard for a guy who carried ORL, was recognized around the NBA, and was purchased by another franchise for a LARGE price.

Of course you care. That's why a conversation about Isaac devolved into a conversation about Vucevic. It's why you got "triggered" by praise for Isaac.

The use of "influential" was not referring to any personality characteristics. He was gifted an oversized role on the team for what seemed an eternity. A larger role isn't an inherently good thing. If a player is bad, then a larger role simply allows that player to do more damage. In the absence of better options, that might be a necessity, but that doesn't make their contributions any better.

This team was never good at any point in the Vucevic era. It ever so briefly topped out at average. But as I stated previously, it was only average because of the team's defense, for which you cannot credit Vucevic. Billy Donovan never coached a bad defense until he coached Vucevic. The best description of Vucevic's defense is ineffectual, but ineffectual is really bad when you are a center. The offense was always bad. I think we had one season in which it wasn't downright awful, so why invoke the names of players like KAT, Kyrie, or Harden? Those guys are all very good offensive players. Vucevic isn't.

Career TS added:
KAT: 1161.7
Kyrie: 695.7
Harden: 2325.4
Vucevic: -291.6

Allowing Vucevic to "carry" this franchise for so long was this franchise's gift to Vucevic, not the other way around. It got him two All Star invitations and it made him a boatload of money. Many better players come and go and never do receive the same good fortune. I'm not sure that Mo Wagner isn't among them, but don't confuse that as an endorsement of Wagner. In the end, Vucevic's greatest gift to this franchise was the haul we received in return for trading him away, but that is because Karnisovas seemed to share your view, for which I will be eternally grateful.

Just another recycled forum thread…you brought Vuc up as a way of propping up another ineffectual ghost (The Isaac that plays)…there’s no real relevance here. Sorry everyone that actually wanted to discuss Isaac. When he plays, he’s my favorite guy on the team stylistically.

Btw, empty per game numbers don’t get you All-Star nods unless you’re a starter - voted in by the mass of fools and bots who should bow to your elevated basketball intellect. Backups are voted in by NBA coaches…while I DO respect your insights - I’m going to go with them on the Vuc issue. I really don’t care to be Vuc’s defender, it’s just weak to see (for years, again & again) ORL’s ONLY player that even sniffed an All-Star spot get blamed unfairly for a dysfunctional team performance. He was a 2-time All Star…was anybody else from ORL even on a ballot? Most fan bases are grateful for their best player.

[swarlesbarkley]

I think Franz is not only our best player, but he's someone I'm prepared to build around. A 6-10 forward with his skillset/IQ/feel for the game is a building block piece to me. I think a lot of people just haven't watched enough games this year, but he's been that good.

Spoiler:

Watch on YouTube

I mean seriously, this is the future people. Isaac is the past at this point.

Agreed. If you're not a star or superstar in this league, you better be a an excellent two-way player. I don't know that Franz will ever be a superstar but he's already a great two-way player who can be a secondary playmaker and also knock down 3s.

JI is (was) one-dimensional who probably will never develop into a playmaker or knock down shooter. I naively thought JI could become KD-lite his first couple years but it's very clear he doesn't have the mindset to be an offensive player and he will most likely always be known as a defensive specialist. More of "nice piece" material but not "best player" material.

[Slim Charless]

So I guess the Celtics would take him off our hands?

Sent from my SM-G950U using RealGM mobile app

If it was that simple, probably. But even if he comes back in great shape (unfortunately a big 'if' after all this time) he's a superior defender only. Heck, a healthy Isaac would fit beautifully on our defence.

The contract is the issue, apart from the variance in how he'll come back.

I know this will sound trite, but I hope he comes back in good shape and you get one of those top 3 big men to pair with him. Add Wagner and you have an instant good front line. And it's not like you don't have young talent in the backcourt.

Overall the roster just looks a little messy, so I'd just focus on Wagner plus your top pick this year (who will be a good fit with him) and fit the rest around them as best you can. That could be a good start to a legit team.

If we get a top 3 and get either chet or jabari, Isaac is a backup for the resst of his tenure with orlando

Wendel\chet (or jabari) would man the PF\C roles the way bamba and wc have done this year, and Wagner is the SF.

For those 12 games Isaac will play in, he can help the bench not blow leads the way this years bench has

Let me ask you guys a question: would you trade Isaac and Suggs for Mikal Bridges and Dario? He's intriguing as a fit next to Ayton (in theory of him playing professional basketball again).

I assume I don't have to explain how someone like Bridges would be useful for you guys. A champion at every level of high school/AAU/college and maybe (hopefully lol) this year. He'd add some smarts and defense in your locker.

Just curious. Thx

[The Effect]

If it was that simple, probably. But even if he comes back in great shape (unfortunately a big 'if' after all this time) he's a superior defender only. Heck, a healthy Isaac would fit beautifully on our defence.

The contract is the issue, apart from the variance in how he'll come back.

I know this will sound trite, but I hope he comes back in good shape and you get one of those top 3 big men to pair with him. Add Wagner and you have an instant good front line. And it's not like you don't have young talent in the backcourt.

Overall the roster just looks a little messy, so I'd just focus on Wagner plus your top pick this year (who will be a good fit with him) and fit the rest around them as best you can. That could be a good start to a legit team.

If we get a top 3 and get either chet or jabari, Isaac is a backup for the resst of his tenure with orlando

Wendel\chet (or jabari) would man the PF\C roles the way bamba and wc have done this year, and Wagner is the SF.

For those 12 games Isaac will play in, he can help the bench not blow leads the way this years bench has

Let me ask you guys a question: would you trade Isaac and Suggs for Mikal Bridges and Dario? He's intriguing as a fit next to Ayton (in theory of him playing professional basketball again).

I assume I don't have to explain how someone like Bridges would be useful for you guys. A champion at every level of high school/AAU/college and maybe (hopefully lol) this year. He'd add some smarts and defense in your locker.

Just curious. Thx

I wouldn't, but that's not anything against bridges
I like how he's developed and sure would like him on the team, but I think he's an elite role player and that's not what we need right now. If we had a roster built to compete I'd probably be more inclined to do it, but adding a high $$ role player, even an elite one at the sake of one of the few high potential guys we have....wouldn't make sense right now

Not saying suggs is a superstar, but I think he has superstar POTENTIAL, and I'm sticking with him.

If it was Isaac and a different player or say a future pick (like say the Denver pick), then yeah, definitely would do it

[Slim Charless]

If we get a top 3 and get either chet or jabari, Isaac is a backup for the resst of his tenure with orlando

Wendel\chet (or jabari) would man the PF\C roles the way bamba and wc have done this year, and Wagner is the SF.

For those 12 games Isaac will play in, he can help the bench not blow leads the way this years bench has

Let me ask you guys a question: would you trade Isaac and Suggs for Mikal Bridges and Dario? He's intriguing as a fit next to Ayton (in theory of him playing professional basketball again).

I assume I don't have to explain how someone like Bridges would be useful for you guys. A champion at every level of high school/AAU/college and maybe (hopefully lol) this year. He'd add some smarts and defense in your locker.

Just curious. Thx

I wouldn't, but that's not anything against bridges
I like how he's developed and sure would like him on the team, but I think he's an elite role player and that's not what we need right now. If we had a roster built to compete I'd probably be more inclined to do it, but adding a high $$ role player, even an elite one at the sake of one of the few high potential guys we have....wouldn't make sense right now

Not saying suggs is a superstar, but I think he has superstar POTENTIAL, and I'm sticking with him.

If it was Isaac and a different player or say a future pick (like say the Denver pick), then yeah, definitely would do it

It's a tough call for you guys no doubt. If Isaac is right, then he's a great defender but as you all know this whole injury thing isn't good. I suppose your front office could be doing this for a tank move, but the kid needs to develop.

If he is good they shouldn't be sitting him as he won't make that much of a difference. If he's not good, that's concerning as it was only a torn meniscus right? That shouldn't take 2 years to heal.

I'm a gambler, so I'd take the shot on him if our doctors signed off. I get it if ORL fans wanna gamble that he's still a good player.

Still, though you guys have a ton of young players with alot of picks coming. Consolidation of some of that for a player like Mikal could help speed things along the rebuilding path. The Suggs portion of the trade would be needed as neither team knows if Isaac is remotely even NBA quality anymore.

[zaymon]

Let me ask you guys a question: would you trade Isaac and Suggs for Mikal Bridges and Dario? He's intriguing as a fit next to Ayton (in theory of him playing professional basketball again).

I assume I don't have to explain how someone like Bridges would be useful for you guys. A champion at every level of high school/AAU/college and maybe (hopefully lol) this year. He'd add some smarts and defense in your locker.

Just curious. Thx

I wouldn't, but that's not anything against bridges
I like how he's developed and sure would like him on the team, but I think he's an elite role player and that's not what we need right now. If we had a roster built to compete I'd probably be more inclined to do it, but adding a high $$ role player, even an elite one at the sake of one of the few high potential guys we have....wouldn't make sense right now

Not saying suggs is a superstar, but I think he has superstar POTENTIAL, and I'm sticking with him.

If it was Isaac and a different player or say a future pick (like say the Denver pick), then yeah, definitely would do it

It's a tough call for you guys no doubt. If Isaac is right, then he's a great defender but as you all know this whole injury thing isn't good. I suppose your front office could be doing this for a tank move, but the kid needs to develop.

If he is good they shouldn't be sitting him as he won't make that much of a difference. If he's not good, that's concerning as it was only a torn meniscus right? That shouldn't take 2 years to heal.

I'm a gambler, so I'd take the shot on him if our doctors signed off. I get it if ORL fans wanna gamble that he's still a good player.

Still, though you guys have a ton of young players with alot of picks coming. Consolidation of some of that for a player like Mikal could help speed things along the rebuilding path. The Suggs portion of the trade would be needed as neither team knows if Isaac is remotely even NBA quality anymore.

You dont consolidate two young players with huge upside for a role player waiting to get paid (altough elite role player). With Isaac mobility and rim protection he could be more valueable than Bridges in the long run, especially with his contract. He is coming from torn ACL and meniscus and we are tanking so his value is all time low right now. No sense for us to trade him.

[p0peye]

Can we rebuild him, do we have technology?

[The-Stallion70]

It's a tough call for you guys no doubt. If Isaac is right, then he's a great defender but as you all know this whole injury thing isn't good. I suppose your front office could be doing this for a tank move, but the kid needs to develop.

If he is good they shouldn't be sitting him as he won't make that much of a difference. If he's not good, that's concerning as it was only a torn meniscus right? That shouldn't take 2 years to heal.

I'm a gambler, so I'd take the shot on him if our doctors signed off. I get it if ORL fans wanna gamble that he's still a good player.

Still, though you guys have a ton of young players with alot of picks coming. Consolidation of some of that for a player like Mikal could help speed things along the rebuilding path. The Suggs portion of the trade would be needed as neither team knows if Isaac is remotely even NBA quality anymore.

I like Mikal but i would still rather bank on the long term upside of Isaac. If we did not already have Franz I would probably be more open to the idea of trading Isaac for a small forward but right now to me Franz and Wendell are the two safest long term players we have in terms of upside and value.

[Xatticus]

It's a tough call for you guys no doubt. If Isaac is right, then he's a great defender but as you all know this whole injury thing isn't good. I suppose your front office could be doing this for a tank move, but the kid needs to develop.

If he is good they shouldn't be sitting him as he won't make that much of a difference. If he's not good, that's concerning as it was only a torn meniscus right? That shouldn't take 2 years to heal.

I'm a gambler, so I'd take the shot on him if our doctors signed off. I get it if ORL fans wanna gamble that he's still a good player.

Still, though you guys have a ton of young players with alot of picks coming. Consolidation of some of that for a player like Mikal could help speed things along the rebuilding path. The Suggs portion of the trade would be needed as neither team knows if Isaac is remotely even NBA quality anymore.

I like Mikal but i would still rather bank on the long term upside of Isaac. If we did not already have Franz I would probably be more open to the idea of trading Isaac for a small forward but right now to me Franz and Wendell are the two safest long term players we have in terms of upside and value.

I'm not doing anything to help out Phoenix right now. I'll wait for them to figure out how to pay Ayton. They will launch themselves into luxury tax territory if they want to keep their only big. They put themselves into a tough situation and I'm sure as hell not tossing Suggs in to sweeten a deal for Bridges. They need to aim a hell of a lot lower. Cole? Sure. Hampton? Sure. Okeke? Sure. The dude we drafted 4th overall about 9 months ago? Not a chance.

We shouldn't be looking at ways to expedite our rebuild. We should be focused on doing it right. Would Bridges make us better next year? Absolutely, but it would sabotage our long-term future by giving up a prized asset and damaging the value of our lottery pick next year. We fought for so damned long to try to get onto the treadmill. We finally accomplished it. Thank goodness we managed to get off of it within a couple years.

The recipe is simple: draft talented young basketball players and wait for them to develop. There is no reason for us to try to speed things up.

[Slim Charless]

It's a tough call for you guys no doubt. If Isaac is right, then he's a great defender but as you all know this whole injury thing isn't good. I suppose your front office could be doing this for a tank move, but the kid needs to develop.

If he is good they shouldn't be sitting him as he won't make that much of a difference. If he's not good, that's concerning as it was only a torn meniscus right? That shouldn't take 2 years to heal.

I'm a gambler, so I'd take the shot on him if our doctors signed off. I get it if ORL fans wanna gamble that he's still a good player.

Still, though you guys have a ton of young players with alot of picks coming. Consolidation of some of that for a player like Mikal could help speed things along the rebuilding path. The Suggs portion of the trade would be needed as neither team knows if Isaac is remotely even NBA quality anymore.

I like Mikal but i would still rather bank on the long term upside of Isaac. If we did not already have Franz I would probably be more open to the idea of trading Isaac for a small forward but right now to me Franz and Wendell are the two safest long term players we have in terms of upside and value.

I'm not doing anything to help out Phoenix right now. I'll wait for them to figure out how to pay Ayton. They will launch themselves into luxury tax territory if they want to keep their only big. They put themselves into a tough situation and I'm sure as hell not tossing Suggs in to sweeten a deal for Bridges. They need to aim a hell of a lot lower. Cole? Sure. Hampton? Sure. Okeke? Sure. The dude we drafted 4th overall about 9 months ago? Not a chance.

We shouldn't be looking at ways to expedite our rebuild. We should be focused on doing it right. Would Bridges make us better next year? Absolutely, but it would sabotage our long-term future by giving up a prized asset and damaging the value of our lottery pick next year. We fought for so damned long to try to get onto the treadmill. We finally accomplished it. Thank goodness we managed to get off of it within a couple years.

The recipe is simple: draft talented young basketball players and wait for them to develop. There is no reason for us to try to speed things up.

I would say you stand to gain more than we do in this hypothetical trade. This, is more or less us buying a stock at a lower point. It might go up, it might not. In your case, a proven thing I would think to be more valuable. Now, do we have some potential pricey players coming down? Perhaps. Ayton will no doubt want a big deal...but most of the other guys including Chris have signed team friendly deals.

I picked your team out since I know you guys have multiple players at seemingly the same positions: PG (Suggs, Fultz, Cole)-overlapping skills it kinda seems and PF (Issac, Franz, WCJ with a decent chance of adding Jabari or Paolo in the draft). Fultz and Isaac have already been paid as well. Also a Bamba/Chet situation is another possibility that could complicate things.

Seems like you should move overlapping unproven guys for guys that have proven stuff already in this league. Mikal has won championships at every level (highschool/AAU/college) hopefully the Suns can finish that off this season. but either way the guy makes teams smarter and better. Also an iron man as he has never missed a game in college or the NBA thus far.