2021-22 NBA Rookie Thread (part 6) - with ROY poll

[PhilBlackson]

Wagner is really impressive too btw, probably 4th on my list.

Long term, I'm taking Kuminga 4th.

I'm taking Jalen Green

Not a bad call lol I think they could end up in a similar tier with Green being a better scorer but Kuminga adding some more rebounding and defence.

Kuminga also has that freakish athleticism and it's like a lot people seem to forget he's actually YOUNGER than Chet Holgrem, Jaden Ivey and just a month older than Banchero. We should be judging his second season like it's his rookie one and my guess it's going to be better than Green or Wagner's.

[bisme37]

Wagner is really impressive too btw, probably 4th on my list.

it's a shame he rarely gets mentioned recently because he is so solid. first of all you can tell he has a good bball IQ with all the smart little plays he makes. then you add his shooting, his ability to put the ball on the floor, his touch around the rim, etc. and that's not even considering his size, which makes it even more valuable.

when the magic get a legit primary ball handler wagner will be his best friend.

Wagner has 50/40/90 potential.

Yeah on the Magic broadcast the other day they pointed out that Wagner is the only rookie shooting above league average from all three of the floor, the 3pt line, and the FT line.

[tdotrep2]

this draft class is stupid, already has 7 clear cut potential allstars, and theres a ton of other guys who could come into their own.

[Madhouse]

Cade needs some smarter players to play with

[Kameleon]

Lamar Stevens destroing Cade rn

[Vampirate]

Not exactly a great game for Cade and Mobley so far.

[Madhouse]

Not exactly sure why Mobley is putting the ball on the floor so much.

[Madhouse]

Mobley was looking strong in the 2nd half. Cade looked out of rhythm

[LoveMyRaps]

Cade needs some smarter players to play with

He's got CORY JOSEPH!!! How much more help does Cade need???????

[Tor_Raps]

I want to repeat, I created a thread for everyone to bet on the 11 to 1 odds for Barnes to win ROY. Not saying he's the favourite but those odds are definitely super close right now.

[Tripod]

Cade needs some smarter players to play with

He's got CORY JOSEPH!!! How much more help does Cade need???????

Cade has a teammate who scored 40 points tonight and another who had 51 last game.

Seems like Cade has some help.

[MrBigShot]

Cade needs some smarter players to play with

He's got CORY JOSEPH!!! How much more help does Cade need???????

Cade has a teammate who scored 40 points tonight and another who had 51 last game.

Seems like Cade has some help.

They average 19 and 16ppg respectively on below league average efficiency. Noone in their right mind thinks our roster is even remotely good.

[whitehops]

mobley played okay... not great. that was the worst game cade has had in a while.

[TheLand13]

To show you how misleading what your saying is, if I was a fan not looking at the advanced stats i'd say Mobley has a slight edge over Barnes in defense as Barnes averages more steals but Mobley averages more blocks. At the surface level Mobley 'seems' to have a minor edge here.

I'm just demonstrating how you need to view things beyond PPG and even TS%

You mean like you guys aren't currently doing now in regards to Mobley? You guys keep claiming he mostly just gets spoon fed his points off of lobs and dunks and that's just simply not true.

Pre All Star Break and for a long while during the season i'd agree with you, Barnes isn't in the same convo as Mobley as a defender.

However just the same Mobley isn't in the same convo as Barnes as a complete offensive player. You really need to look at the stats beyond just scoring here.

So what's your excuse for not doing that in regards to offensive rebounding?

and is the better offensive rebounder (0.5 more offensive rebounds).

Barnes is not a better offensive rebounder than Mobley is. And this is where not understanding the context behind how Mobley played for most of the season hurts your argument. Mobley when playing with Allen typically stayed further away from the basket on offense in order to give Allen as much room to operate under the rim as possible. Once he became the full time center in Allen's place and played under the basket more, his offensive rebounding numbers improved.

Another way to think about this is if Mobley's offensive impact was close to Barnes impact he'd be running away with the ROY no questions asked.

For most of the season, he was.

Again, pre All Star break Mobley's overall offensive impact was much closer, now it isn't.

Their advanced stats as of now, take it for what you will.

I've made it known to people on here that I'm not a fan of advanced statistics as it's a lazy way to debate players without actually watching them play. But offensive metrics are generally much more accurate, so this is pretty damning to my argument.

TheLand13 you're really going to disregard my post.

I actually have no idea how I missed your original post, but I didn't see it until just now.

And you're also really discrediting Barnes overall offensive impact he's had over the year, even when Barnes was playing on a bad knee to prop up Mobley here. You're using scoring only to compare offensive impact, which is just bad.

First off, no I'm not (edit: oof, just looked through the posts and yeah, I actually did. Well that's a lazy fail on my part). Second, you just used Off RPG to try to prove Barnes was a better offensive rebounder. You don't have any room to talk here.

Since the start of the year Barnes has always been the better playmaker, offensive rebounder and as the season went on, more versatile scorer.

You will not see raptor fans, knowledgeable ones, arguing that Barnes defensive impact is the same as Mobley's but you can't admit Mobley's offensive impact is the same as Barnes.

Well then I guess you're claiming some of the ones here aren't knowledgeable, because there's quite a few of them making that claim.

Also, go back through the posts. Please. And tell me where I state that Mobley's impact on offense is as great as Scotties. In fact I am begging you to do so. My argument is only that the gap between those two on offense is smaller than the gap between the two on defense, that's it. And ever since Allen went down with injury, Mobley has closed the gap on offense, but he's obviously not at that point.

[TheLand13]

mobley played okay... not great. that was the worst game cade has had in a while.

Mobley could have been a lot better in this one. And his free throw shooting REALLY needs to improve (as does the free throw shooting of the Cavaliers as a whole). He tends to struggle against the more aggressive and physical centers in the league and Stewart when not in foul trouble was able to do just about anything he wanted out there. Still, I gotta give Cleveland props. I wasn't expecting them to pull this one out without Allen, since Detroit's style of play is usually not ideal for them.

[whitehops]

Mobley could have been a lot better in this one. And his free throw shooting REALLY needs to improve (as does the free throw shooting of the Cavaliers as a whole). He tends to struggle against the more aggressive and physical centers in the league and Stewart when not in foul trouble was able to do just about anything he wanted out there. Still, I gotta give Cleveland props. I wasn't expecting them to pull this one out without Allen, since Detroit's style of play is usually not ideal for them.

yeah that was a huge win for the cavs considering they were coming off an OT back to back and the playoff seeding race being so tight.

good luck the rest of the way and in the playoffs.

[Vampirate]

You mean like you guys aren't currently doing now in regards to Mobley? You guys keep claiming he mostly just gets spoon fed his points off of lobs and dunks and that's just simply not true.

Mobley's bread and butter is basically scoring in 3 feet of the bucket, regardless of how he's over 75% at the rim. He struggles for some reason 3-10 feet out (which is odd) but is decent at 10-16 feet then gets bad again.

Barnes is just good up to 10 feet period, but then his shooting gets worse the further out he goes.

There's no doubt that Mobley can create his own offense however the majority of his shots are assisted 64.9% to be exact on his 2s.

Barnes on the other hand just 41.5% of his 2s assisted.

Pre All Star Break and for a long while during the season i'd agree with you, Barnes isn't in the same convo as Mobley as a defender.

However just the same Mobley isn't in the same convo as Barnes as a complete offensive player. You really need to look at the stats beyond just scoring here.

So what's your excuse for not doing that in regards to offensive rebounding?

I never said offensive rebounding alone gives Barnes the clear edge on offense like Mobley has on defense, I said it was that mixed with his scoring and passing/playmaking.

and is the better offensive rebounder (0.5 more offensive rebounds).

Barnes is not a better offensive rebounder than Mobley is. And this is where not understanding the context behind how Mobley played for most of the season hurts your argument. Mobley when playing with Allen typically stayed further away from the basket on offense in order to give Allen as much room to operate under the rim as possible. Once he became the full time center in Allen's place and played under the basket more, his offensive rebounding numbers improved.

The Raptors are 2nd in the league in offensive rebounding, Barnes leads the Raptors in offensive rebounding. Give the man his due here, he's better than Mobley as a offensive rebounder despite not playing with anyone 6"10+, he's just relentless. This is more of how good Barnes as an offensive rebounder is than a dig at Mobley.

Another way to think about this is if Mobley's offensive impact was close to Barnes impact he'd be running away with the ROY no questions asked.

For most of the season, he was.

He's not now. It looks like post all Star, the knee tendonitis really slowed down Barnes more than people thought.

Again, pre All Star break Mobley's overall offensive impact was much closer, now it isn't.

Their advanced stats as of now, take it for what you will.

I've made it known to people on here that I'm not a fan of advanced statistics as it's a lazy way to debate players without actually watching them play. But offensive metrics are generally much more accurate, so this is pretty damning to my argument.

No one stat, even advanced stats will definitively say one guy is better than the other, but many of them will give you a good picture overall.

I think the only offensive advance stat I have seen where Barnes doesn't have the clear decisive edge is offensive real plus/minus where both players are in the negatives, Mobley more so, but not too much more.

And you're also really discrediting Barnes overall offensive impact he's had over the year, even when Barnes was playing on a bad knee to prop up Mobley here. You're using scoring only to compare offensive impact, which is just bad.

First off, no I'm not (edit: oof, just looked through the posts and yeah, I actually did. Well that's a lazy fail on my part). Second, you just used Off RPG to try to prove Barnes was a better offensive rebounder. You don't have any room to talk here.

Since the start of the year Barnes has always been the better playmaker, offensive rebounder and as the season went on, more versatile scorer.

You will not see raptor fans, knowledgeable ones, arguing that Barnes defensive impact is the same as Mobley's but you can't admit Mobley's offensive impact is the same as Barnes.

Well then I guess you're claiming some of the ones here aren't knowledgeable, because there's quite a few of them making that claim.

You'd need to visit the Raptors GM board to get a better perspective. And when Mobley was well ahead of the ROY race, many Raptor fans were giving Mobley his due.

Also, go back through the posts. Please. And tell me where I state that Mobley's impact on offense is as great as Scotties. In fact I am begging you to do so. My argument is only that the gap between those two on offense is smaller than the gap between the two on defense, that's it. And ever since Allen went down with injury, Mobley has closed the gap on offense, but he's obviously not at that point.

I really think Barnes has proved himself to be the better scorer, offensive rebounder and playmaker which to me really closes the gap between the players. I think the gap is about the same tbh. Time will tell. Barnes just looks that special as an overall offensive force.

Regardless, i'm a Raptors fan and you're a Cavs fan, were going to have to agree to disagree on this.

At the end of the day Raptor fans are extremely high on Barnes offensive upside and Cav fans are extremely high on Mobley's defensive upside. Simply put.

[pingpongrac]

To show you how misleading what your saying is, if I was a fan not looking at the advanced stats i'd say Mobley has a slight edge over Barnes in defense as Barnes averages more steals but Mobley averages more blocks. At the surface level Mobley 'seems' to have a minor edge here.

I'm just demonstrating how you need to view things beyond PPG and even TS%

You mean like you guys aren't currently doing now in regards to Mobley? You guys keep claiming he mostly just gets spoon fed his points off of lobs and dunks and that's just simply not true.

Pre All Star Break and for a long while during the season i'd agree with you, Barnes isn't in the same convo as Mobley as a defender.

However just the same Mobley isn't in the same convo as Barnes as a complete offensive player. You really need to look at the stats beyond just scoring here.

So what's your excuse for not doing that in regards to offensive rebounding?

and is the better offensive rebounder (0.5 more offensive rebounds).

Barnes is not a better offensive rebounder than Mobley is. And this is where not understanding the context behind how Mobley played for most of the season hurts your argument. Mobley when playing with Allen typically stayed further away from the basket on offense in order to give Allen as much room to operate under the rim as possible. Once he became the full time center in Allen's place and played under the basket more, his offensive rebounding numbers improved.

Another way to think about this is if Mobley's offensive impact was close to Barnes impact he'd be running away with the ROY no questions asked.

For most of the season, he was.

Again, pre All Star break Mobley's overall offensive impact was much closer, now it isn't.

Their advanced stats as of now, take it for what you will.

I've made it known to people on here that I'm not a fan of advanced statistics as it's a lazy way to debate players without actually watching them play. But offensive metrics are generally much more accurate, so this is pretty damning to my argument.

TheLand13 you're really going to disregard my post.

I actually have no idea how I missed your original post, but I didn't see it until just now.

And you're also really discrediting Barnes overall offensive impact he's had over the year, even when Barnes was playing on a bad knee to prop up Mobley here. You're using scoring only to compare offensive impact, which is just bad.

First off, no I'm not (edit: oof, just looked through the posts and yeah, I actually did. Well that's a lazy fail on my part). Second, you just used Off RPG to try to prove Barnes was a better offensive rebounder. You don't have any room to talk here.

Since the start of the year Barnes has always been the better playmaker, offensive rebounder and as the season went on, more versatile scorer.

You will not see raptor fans, knowledgeable ones, arguing that Barnes defensive impact is the same as Mobley's but you can't admit Mobley's offensive impact is the same as Barnes.

Well then I guess you're claiming some of the ones here aren't knowledgeable, because there's quite a few of them making that claim.

Also, go back through the posts. Please. And tell me where I state that Mobley's impact on offense is as great as Scotties. In fact I am begging you to do so. My argument is only that the gap between those two on offense is smaller than the gap between the two on defense, that's it. And ever since Allen went down with injury, Mobley has closed the gap on offense, but he's obviously not at that point.

I don't know how you can argue the fact that Mobley gets a lot of his points spoonfed to him while Barnes creates a lot more of his own offence as well as more offence for his teammates -- and he does so a bit more efficiently.

Mobley: 66.7 AST FG%, 133 dunks (34.6% of FGM), 11.5 AST%, 12.3 TOV%, .548 TS%
Barnes: 47.4 AST FG%, 49 dunks (12.6% of FGM), 14.3 AST%, 12.0 TOV%, .554 TS%

Regarding the offensive rebounding numbers, it was never implied that offensive rebounding alone gives Barnes the advantage on that end; Barnes has a big edge on the offensive end due to a mix of scoring in a variety of ways and playmaking. Regardless, the same kind of thing that you applied for Mobley can be applied to Barnes when it comes to rebounding. More often than not, Toronto spaces the floor out unless Birch or Achiuwa (earlier in the season) are on the floor and Barnes spends a lot of his time either out on the perimeter or above the free throw line. Both the eye test and stats confirm that Barnes is a slightly better offensive rebounder than Mobley. Barnes doesn't get more offensive rebounds because he is under the basket more than Mobley. He gets more offensive rebounds because he is built like a tank and he has great offensive rebounding instincts.

Mobley did have a similar offensive impact for most of the season. Their pre-ASG raw numbers were nearly identical (14.4/7.4/3.3 on .536 TS% for Barnes vs 14.9/8.1/2.6 on .547 TS% for Mobley), but Barnes had a neutral impact (-0.1 on/off ORTG) for a top 10 offence while Mobley had a negative impact (-1.7 on/off ORTG) for the 19th ranked offence. I'd give that edge to Barnes.

And no, Mobley hasn't closed the gap on the offensive end as of late. He is averaging 16.7 PPG on 55 TS% with a 1.3 AST/TO ratio whereas Barnes is averaging 19.8 PPG on 61 TS% with a 1.6 AST/TO ratio since the ASG. Barnes is just increasing the gap on the offensive end while he is significantly improving his defensive impact.

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[zaymon]

Barnes and Mobley are great prospects but they are not even top 2 talented scorers. Cunningham and Wagner are much more skilled on offense. While Mobley is best interior defender, Barnes is not even in top 5 best defenders so far imo.
Mobley and Barnes are lucky to be on good teams and have so much exposition(and they are contributing i am not arguing this)

[TheLand13]

Mobley's bread and butter is basically scoring in 3 feet of the bucket, regardless of how he's over 75% at the rim. He struggles for some reason 3-10 feet out (which is odd) but is decent at 10-16 feet then gets bad again.

Barnes is just good up to 10 feet period, but then his shooting gets worse the further out he goes.

There's no doubt that Mobley can create his own offense however the majority of his shots are assisted 64.9% to be exact on his 2s.

Barnes on the other hand just 41.5% of his 2s assisted.

And trust me when I say this, a decent chunk of those assisted buckets are him with his back to the basket, having to utilize his post game to create a shot for himself immediately to create a basket. He had about four or five of those against Denver alone. That's not being spoon fed a bucket.

Pre All Star Break and for a long while during the season i'd agree with you, Barnes isn't in the same convo as Mobley as a defender.

However just the same Mobley isn't in the same convo as Barnes as a complete offensive player. You really need to look at the stats beyond just scoring here.

So what's your excuse for not doing that in regards to offensive rebounding?

I never said offensive rebounding alone gives Barnes the clear edge on offense like Mobley has on defense, I said it was that mixed with his scoring and passing/playmaking.[/quote]

No, but you said it made Barnes a better offensive rebounder. And that's just not correct. When Kevin Love first went to the Cavaliers, his offensive rebounding dipped massively and he fell below a lot of people in that category. But you'd be willing to bet that he was still better than at least 80-90% of those people at it. He, like Mobley (although not to that extent) was forced to stay further away from the basket on offense depending on who was out there playing with him. That's going to impact someone's offensive rebounding numbers.

and is the better offensive rebounder (0.5 more offensive rebounds).

Barnes is not a better offensive rebounder than Mobley is. And this is where not understanding the context behind how Mobley played for most of the season hurts your argument. Mobley when playing with Allen typically stayed further away from the basket on offense in order to give Allen as much room to operate under the rim as possible. Once he became the full time center in Allen's place and played under the basket more, his offensive rebounding numbers improved.

The Raptors are 2nd in the league in offensive rebounding, Barnes leads the Raptors in offensive rebounding. Give the man his due here, he's better than Mobley as a offensive rebounder despite not playing with anyone 6"10+, he's just relentless. This is more of how good Barnes as an offensive rebounder is than a dig at Mobley.[/quote]

Again, the moment Mobley became the main center on the Cavaliers, his offensive rebounding numbers increased, to the point where he would be better than Barnes at this rate. There is no argument for Barnes here. And that's not a dig at him btw. He is absolutely relentless, it's one of the reasons why I really wish we could have him on our team (can we trade you guys Jarrett Allen for him? Would that be fair?).

Another way to think about this is if Mobley's offensive impact was close to Barnes impact he'd be running away with the ROY no questions asked.

For most of the season, he was.

He's not now. It looks like post all Star, the knee tendonitis really slowed down Barnes more than people thought.[/quote]

I think you're mistaken what I'm referring to. I'm talking about Mobley being the runaway ROY for most of the season. By January, pretty much everyone outside of Toronto (albeit for reasons I still don't quite understand) had Mobley pegged as the clear favorite to win the award. There were multiple people saying it was his to lose.

Again, pre All Star break Mobley's overall offensive impact was much closer, now it isn't.

Their advanced stats as of now, take it for what you will.

I've made it known to people on here that I'm not a fan of advanced statistics as it's a lazy way to debate players without actually watching them play. But offensive metrics are generally much more accurate, so this is pretty damning to my argument.

No one stat, even advanced stats will definitively say one guy is better than the other, but many of them will give you a good picture overall.

I think the only offensive advance stat I have seen where Barnes doesn't have the clear decisive edge is offensive real plus/minus where both players are in the negatives, Mobley more so, but not too much more.just used Off RPG to try to prove Barnes was a better offensive rebounder. You don't have any room to talk here. [/quote]

You'd need to visit the Raptors GM board to get a better perspective. And when Mobley was well ahead of the ROY race, many Raptor fans were giving Mobley his due.

I will keep that in mind.

Also, go back through the posts. Please. And tell me where I state that Mobley's impact on offense is as great as Scotties. In fact I am begging you to do so. My argument is only that the gap between those two on offense is smaller than the gap between the two on defense, that's it. And ever since Allen went down with injury, Mobley has closed the gap on offense, but he's obviously not at that point.

I really think Barnes has proved himself to be the better scorer, offensive rebounder and playmaker which to me really closes the gap between the players. I think the gap is about the same tbh. Time will tell. Barnes just looks that special as an overall offensive force.

Regardless, i'm a Raptors fan and you're a Cavs fan, were going to have to agree to disagree on this.

At the end of the day Raptor fans are extremely high on Barnes offensive upside and Cav fans are extremely high on Mobley's defensive upside. Simply put.

Yeah, this is something we can agree with.