2021-22 NBA Rookie Thread (part 6) - with ROY poll

First Step · Post #741 » by **First Step** » Sun Mar 20, 2022 3:24 pm

If the Raptors had Wagner instead of Barnes I’d be far less excited about our future.

LoveMyRaps · Post #742 » by **LoveMyRaps** » Sun Mar 20, 2022 4:03 pm

zaymon wrote:Barnes and Mobley are great prospects but they are not even top 2 talented scorers. Cunningham and Wagner are much more skilled on offense. While Mobley is best interior defender, Barnes is not even in top 5 best defenders so far imo.
Mobley and Barnes are lucky to be on good teams and have so much exposition(and they are contributing i am not arguing this)

This post is hilarious. Claiming Wagner is better offensive player is just downright silly.
Cope harder.

Tripod · Post #743 » by **Tripod** » Sun Mar 20, 2022 4:12 pm

zaymon wrote:Barnes and Mobley are great prospects but they are not even top 2 talented scorers. Cunningham and Wagner are much more skilled on offense. While Mobley is best interior defender, Barnes is not even in top 5 best defenders so far imo.
Mobley and Barnes are lucky to be on good teams and have so much exposition(and they are contributing i am not arguing this)

Maybe Barnes would post better numbers if not tasked with guarding Lebron, Jokic, Tatum, etc... and was Biden easier assignments like the other rookies.

zaymon · Post #744 » by **zaymon** » Sun Mar 20, 2022 5:36 pm

LoveMyRaps wrote:
zaymon wrote:Barnes and Mobley are great prospects but they are not even top 2 talented scorers. Cunningham and Wagner are much more skilled on offense. While Mobley is best interior defender, Barnes is not even in top 5 best defenders so far imo.
Mobley and Barnes are lucky to be on good teams and have so much exposition(and they are contributing i am not arguing this)

This post is hilarious. Claiming Wagner is better offensive player is just downright silly.
Cope harder.

There is no debate Wagner is better offensive player and your pitiful comments cant change that. You compare pick and roll ball handler to play finisher. Same thing with Cade but he is even more involved in offense. Until Barnes shows he can run the offense in any meaningful capacity its funny to compare them. Show some culture man its embarassing to even answer you.

whitehops · Post #745 » by **whitehops** » Sun Mar 20, 2022 5:39 pm

Tripod wrote:
zaymon wrote:Barnes and Mobley are great prospects but they are not even top 2 talented scorers. Cunningham and Wagner are much more skilled on offense. While Mobley is best interior defender, Barnes is not even in top 5 best defenders so far imo.
Mobley and Barnes are lucky to be on good teams and have so much exposition(and they are contributing i am not arguing this)

Maybe Barnes would post better numbers if not tasked with guarding Lebron, Jokic, Tatum, etc... and was Biden easier assignments like the other rookies.

i continue to see narratives about barnes that don't exactly match up with reality.

herbert jones, ayo dosunmo, davion mitchell and jalen suggs are the "defensive specialist" guys on their teams and are tasked with the opponents best player more often than not. even then guys like wagner and austin reaves see tougher covers on a more consistent basis than barnes. just behind barnes on the list is kuminga, duarte and cade.

also, not sure what you mean by "tasked with guarding Lebron, Jokic, Tatum, etc" when achiuwa was the primary defender on jokic and lebron (didn't see the boston game). he may defend them for a couple possessions but that's not what being "tasked" with guarding someone means.

PD28 · Post #746 » by **PD28** » Sun Mar 20, 2022 5:49 pm

After watching the Cade/Mobley matchup yesterday, I honestly got some WB vibes from Cade. The numbers are pretty damn close as well:

reanimator · Post #747 » by **reanimator** » Sun Mar 20, 2022 6:19 pm

I wonder if people pushing this Cade = WB comp know they are embarrassing themselves?

NoBias · Post #748 » by **NoBias** » Sun Mar 20, 2022 6:26 pm

reanimator wrote:I wonder if people pushing this Cade = WB comp know they are embarrassing themselves?

It’s a lazy comparison. But if Cade is anywhere close to a prime WB, Pistons would be extremely happy.

reanimator · Post #749 » by **reanimator** » Sun Mar 20, 2022 6:47 pm

NoBias wrote:
reanimator wrote:I wonder if people pushing this Cade = WB comp know they are embarrassing themselves?

It’s a lazy comparison. But if Cade is anywhere close to a prime WB, Pistons would be extremely happy.

In terms of pure production/impact? Sure that would be a huge win. But stylistically, I think Cade is a highly malleable guard who can play off ball and do all the small things to get wins.

Onball rookies usually have low efficiency, high usage, tons of turnovers. Hallmarks of WB but not indicative of where those rookies will end up.

srhcan · Post #750 » by **srhcan** » Sun Mar 20, 2022 7:01 pm

zaymon wrote:
LoveMyRaps wrote:
zaymon wrote:Barnes and Mobley are great prospects but they are not even top 2 talented scorers. Cunningham and Wagner are much more skilled on offense. While Mobley is best interior defender, Barnes is not even in top 5 best defenders so far imo.
Mobley and Barnes are lucky to be on good teams and have so much exposition(and they are contributing i am not arguing this)

This post is hilarious. Claiming Wagner is better offensive player is just downright silly.
Cope harder.

There is no debate Wagner is better offensive player and your pitiful comments cant change that. You compare pick and roll ball handler to play finisher. Same thing with Cade but he is even more involved in offense. Until Barnes shows he can run the offense in any meaningful capacity its funny to compare them. Show some culture man its embarassing to even answer you.

Before I thought that you are right and Wagner is definitely a better offensive player than Barnes. But then I look at the stats and was shocked to see that Barnes is actually better offensive player than Wagner. Look at them:
* 0-3 ft: Barnes: 69%, Wagner: 61%, Advantage: Barnes
* 3-10 ft: Barnes: 51%, Wagner: 46%, Advantage: Barnes
* 10-16 ft: Barnes: 40%, Wagner: 32%, Advantage: Barnes
* 16 ft-3P: Barnes: 40%, Wagner: 27%, Advantage: Barnes
* 3P: Barnes: 31%, Wagner: 37%, Advantage: Wagner

Only place where Wagner is beating Barnes is at 3P, everywhere else Barnes is better.

First Step · Post #751 » by **First Step** » Sun Mar 20, 2022 7:33 pm

Some Magic fans were peddling the conspiracy theory that Suggs tanked his workout with Toronto, so I’m not surprised to see misinformation ITT coming from members of that community.

Madhouse · Post #752 » by **Madhouse** » Sun Mar 20, 2022 8:16 pm

zaymon wrote:Barnes and Mobley are great prospects but they are not even top 2 talented scorers. Cunningham and Wagner are much more skilled on offense. While Mobley is best interior defender, Barnes is not even in top 5 best defenders so far imo.
Mobley and Barnes are lucky to be on good teams and have so much exposition(and they are contributing i am not arguing this)

Barnes scores his points on 53% unassisted buckets compared to Wagner's 40%.

He is one of only 5 rookies who have ever averaged 15 PPG at his current usage and efficiency and it's likely that none of those were able to create their own offense like Barnes can.

He has one truly elite scoring trait which is scoring inside the paint. You can't say that about any rookie except Cam Thomas' mid range shooting. He is scoring inside the paint as efficiently as current Zion/Ja.

Wagner is better at 3pt shooting and FTs, he is worse at everything inside the 3pt line especially in the paint.

To say he is a more talented scorer than Barnes is hilarious. Even more funny that you Barnes is not a top 5 defender. Everyone else except maybe Herbert Jones would be completely overwhelmed with the tasks he is receiving guarding every single position on the floor.

Madhouse · Post #753 » by **Madhouse** » Sun Mar 20, 2022 8:18 pm

zaymon wrote:
LoveMyRaps wrote:
zaymon wrote:Barnes and Mobley are great prospects but they are not even top 2 talented scorers. Cunningham and Wagner are much more skilled on offense. While Mobley is best interior defender, Barnes is not even in top 5 best defenders so far imo.
Mobley and Barnes are lucky to be on good teams and have so much exposition(and they are contributing i am not arguing this)

This post is hilarious. Claiming Wagner is better offensive player is just downright silly.
Cope harder.

There is no debate Wagner is better offensive player and your pitiful comments cant change that. You compare pick and roll ball handler to play finisher. Same thing with Cade but he is even more involved in offense. Until Barnes shows he can run the offense in any meaningful capacity its funny to compare them. Show some culture man its embarassing to even answer you.

Barnes literally creates his own offense way more, has an elite skill, Wagner does not and still scores just as efficiently.

You aren't living in reality.

LoveMyRaps · Post #754 » by **LoveMyRaps** » Sun Mar 20, 2022 8:40 pm

Madhouse wrote:
zaymon wrote:
LoveMyRaps wrote:

This post is hilarious. Claiming Wagner is better offensive player is just downright silly.
Cope harder.

There is no debate Wagner is better offensive player and your pitiful comments cant change that. You compare pick and roll ball handler to play finisher. Same thing with Cade but he is even more involved in offense. Until Barnes shows he can run the offense in any meaningful capacity its funny to compare them. Show some culture man its embarassing to even answer you.

Barnes literally creates his own offense way more, has an elite skill, Wagner does not and still scores just as efficiently.

You aren't living in reality.

Exactly. Not to mention offensive rebounding, as well as playmaking.
Wagner only has an edge in 3pt shooting at the moment. Barnes is literally better everywhere else.
I've seen plenty of Wagner live, and I'm very high on him & believe he'll be an All-Star but I didn't even bother responding to this guy's comment because it's clear he's barely seen Barnes play.
'uNTiL baRNEs shOWS hE caN rUn tHE oFfense" - :lol:

He literally does every night.
And the audacity to call him a P&R ball handler :lol:

PD28 · Post #755 » by **PD28** » Sun Mar 20, 2022 8:51 pm

First Step wrote:Some Magic fans were peddling the conspiracy theory that Suggs tanked his workout with Toronto, so I’m not surprised to see misinformation ITT coming from members of that community.

No way this is real lol

orlando_joe · Post #756 » by **orlando_joe** » Sun Mar 20, 2022 9:10 pm

delete

7r5ur · Post #757 » by **7r5ur** » Sun Mar 20, 2022 9:16 pm

PD28 wrote:After watching the Cade/Mobley matchup yesterday, I honestly got some WB vibes from Cade. The numbers are pretty damn close as well:

Is rookie Cade a past-his-prime Russell Westbrook or a rookie Lebron James. I guess time will tell...

I'm curious if you could find 2 players with vaguely similar stats that play any more different than Cade and Russ.

orlando_joe · Post #758 » by **orlando_joe** » Sun Mar 20, 2022 9:21 pm

orlando_joe wrote:
LoveMyRaps wrote:
Madhouse wrote:
Barnes literally creates his own offense way more, has an elite skill, Wagner does not and still scores just as efficiently.

You aren't living in reality.

Exactly. Not to mention offensive rebounding, as well as playmaking.
Wagner only has an edge in 3pt shooting at the moment. Barnes is literally better everywhere else.
I've seen plenty of Wagner live, and I'm very high on him & believe he'll be an All-Star but I didn't even bother responding to this guy's comment because it's clear he's barely seen Barnes play.
'uNTiL baRNEs shOWS hE caN rUn tHE oFfense" - He literally does every night.
And the audacity to call him a P&R ball handler

sure it has nothing to with you dont have to guard anyone on magic ..he gets best defender every night..most of season no real pg...barnes gets 5th as raptors like to point out he is 5th option right why guard him with the best? so you can spin anything..lol
also barnes only in 2 pt fg...wagner leads in 3% and ft% see can spin that to..i could split 3pt% into 6 spots on floor...lol
also wagner job is not to rb ..that for wcj,mo and the guard bringing ball up...so...spin that to...lol

Madhouse · Post #759 » by **Madhouse** » Sun Mar 20, 2022 9:54 pm

orlando_joe wrote:
sure it has nothing to with you dont have to guard anyone on magic ..he gets best defender every night..most of season no real pg...barnes gets 5th as raptors like to point out he is 5th option right why guard him with the best? so you can spin anything..lol
also barnes only in 2 pt fg...wagner leads in 3% and ft% see can spin that to..i could split 3pt% into 6 spots on floor...lol
also wagner job is not to rb ..that for wcj,mo and the guard bringing ball up...so...spin that to...lol

I already pointed out that Wagner's one advantage is 3pt shooting.

The 5th option thing isn't even reality, Barnes plays best when players are missing and he gets double teamed in the post. But he is unguardable in the paint now that he discovered he has an elite skill.

That's why his points and efficiency are going up despite not getting spoon fed like Mobley or Wagner.

Vampirate · Post #760 » by **Vampirate** » Sun Mar 20, 2022 10:29 pm

reanimator wrote:I wonder if people pushing this Cade = WB comp know they are embarrassing themselves?

Cade's TOs are an issue, have been since college, it'll be interesting to see what his numbers, efficiency, A/TO etc would be with better quality teammates.

I however trust Cade to age much better than Russ, Cade is not some player who relies on GOAT tier athleticism, he's mainly a crafty guy who's BBIQ blows Westbrook's BBIQ out the water.

He'll age well.

Who is the Rookie of the Year?