2021-22 NBA Rookie Thread (part 6) - with ROY poll

[LoveMyRaps]

no one really cares if a guard does it. FVV does step back jumpers too. Having a big wing who can guard C's that can also do step back jumpers....ya, thats pretty special. If Cade starts guarding Jokic and banging in the post with other C's, we'd see clips of that too.

You know that guard skills that Mobley shows? Theyre actually pretty below average for a guard. It's just special when a 7 footer is capable of it

cade is an inch shorter than barnes... wagner is like two inches taller and he has no problem putting the ball on the floor, doing step backs, running PnR, etc.

You make great points but its like talking to a wall. Barnes is great rookie, nobody is arguing this, but saying he is better scorer than Cade and Wagner becouse he has good percentages shooting those wierd hooks far from the rim against bad defenders ( becouse he cant get to the rim consistently) is just wrong and i wont support false narrative.
Today Barnes plays without FVV and its 6/21.

lol this is such an ignorant comment. I feel bad for you... He literally feasts on the opposing teams best defenders on a nightly basis but you're coming here making idiotic statements like that??? It's all good. All it does is prove you're a casual.
And yeah he had one bad shooting night last night but how did Wagner do against one of the worst teams in the league yesterday? Right.. he shot 3/12 against OKC.

Here's a highlight of Barnes schooling a "bad defender" (Matisse Thybule) from last night:

[srhcan]

Scottie man on man post coverage on Embiid in the clutch.

Forces the fadeaway miss.

Come on now, Barnes was bad defensively yesterday, Thybulle had his number, Achiwa was on Embiid and should get the most credit for defense

[MrBigShot]

Functionally, Barnes is a better scorer than Cade this season. Cade is more skilled imo, and becoming efficient for him is just a matter of making 1-2 more of the high quality shots he creates a game. Cade has the superior handle, jumper, and just generally has an easier time getting all the way to the rim. He's still the guy I'd take #1 no questions asked.

But, this season Scottie scores slightly less on markedly better efficiency than Cade. Scottie and Wagner both score 15ppg and similar efficiency, but Scottie does more shot creation. 41% of his 2s are assisted, vs 53% for Wagner (for reference only 22% of Cade's 2s are assisted)

These awkward hooks and in between shots that Scottie Barnes takes, he has good touch for them to be high quality looks. Best way I could describe is that the dude just finds a way to put the ball in the basket lmao. I wouldn't outright say he's a better scorer than Wagner though, because Franz does have a very slight edge in TS% and is a significantly better 3 point shooter.

[zaymon]

cade is an inch shorter than barnes... wagner is like two inches taller and he has no problem putting the ball on the floor, doing step backs, running PnR, etc.

You make great points but its like talking to a wall. Barnes is great rookie, nobody is arguing this, but saying he is better scorer than Cade and Wagner becouse he has good percentages shooting those wierd hooks far from the rim against bad defenders ( becouse he cant get to the rim consistently) is just wrong and i wont support false narrative.
Today Barnes plays without FVV and its 6/21.

lol this is such an ignorant comment. I feel bad for you... He literally feasts on the opposing teams best defenders on a nightly basis but you're coming here making idiotic statements like that??? It's all good. All it does is prove you're a casual.
And yeah he had one bad shooting night last night but how did Wagner do against one of the worst teams in the league yesterday? Right.. he shot 3/12 against OKC.

Here's a highlight of Barnes schooling a "bad defender" (Matisse Thybule) from last night:

Yeah he schooled Thybulle by scoring 6/21 ? You contradict yourself without even knowing it. Big part of Raptor fans complain that Barnes is 4th-5th option on offense and now you say he scores against best defenders ? So is he last option or does he gets best defensive assignments you cant have it both ways. You act like a child, grow up.
ps. so Wagner scoring 11 pts on 12 shots is bad but Barnes scoring 13 points on 21 shots is good ? lol

[DroseReturnChi]

Crazy thing about barnes is that he only averaged 10ppg in college. His per 40 numbers and advanced stats were nothing special either.

Masai really outdid himself on this pick.

he only avges 15ppg bc he is on a historically bad offensive team with 0 stars so he is pretty much force fed crash course not a linear improvement like jokic/gianis. im repeating a million time but masai is trying to brainwash scottie to a giannis when he is draymond he has the exact physicals. dont ever mention scottie is a better scorer than cade that is cade's number 1 selling point.

unless scottie proves to me he is a lead playmaker as he was in fsu and a improved league avg shooter, his ceiling is highly limited. Masai is trying to cover his weakness by turning him to a small ball center but his real position is forward. every forward will be useless if he cannot shoot will get simmons treatment post season. i only give ben a pass bc he is a forward version of gobert and magic johnson but 9 out of these archetypes will fail.

[MrBigShot]

Brainwash scottie into a giannis. Bruh.

[reanimator]

Barnes has a more varied shot distribution, self creates more, but on slightly less efficiency. Wagner is more of a 3 pt or rim type scorer and beyond 3 pt shooting, I don't really see an advantage. Including playmaking for others and Barnes gets the nod imo.

Cade has the most varied shot distribution, most playmaking, and self creation but the worst efficiency. I think he has the most potential as a scorer/passer but he has to develop a few hot zone areas like Scottie already has 15 ft in.

[ForeverTFC]

Barnes has a more varied shot distribution, self creates more, but on slightly less efficiency. Wagner is more of a 3 pt or rim type scorer and beyond 3 pt shooting, I don't really see an advantage. Including playmaking for others and Barnes gets the nod imo.

Cade has the most varied shot distribution, most playmaking, and self creation but the worst efficiency. I think he has the most potential as a scorer/passer but he has to develop a few hot zone areas like Scottie already has 15 ft in.

The idea that Wagner is somehow the same level of prospect as Barnes/Mobley/Cade/Giddey/Kuminga/Green is pretty asinine. He could very well have a better career than some of these guys but the ceiling is just on a much lower level. But I know that will piss off some people (and I would be pissed off to hear that so plainly if Wagner was on my team as well) so I stay away from discussing it.

But when someone starts to question the ceiling of these 6, that's when I start to question their understanding of the NBA game. Like:

You make great points but its like talking to a wall. Barnes is great rookie, nobody is arguing this, but saying he is better scorer than Cade and Wagner becouse he has good percentages shooting those wierd hooks far from the rim against bad defenders ( becouse he cant get to the rim consistently) is just wrong and i wont support false narrative.
Today Barnes plays without FVV and its 6/21.

Barnes is 16.3 pts, 8.1 rebounds, 5 assists in 11 games without FVV. His FG% is better in games without FVV than in games with FVV. The Raptors don't run sets for Barnes so he creates a lot of his own opportunities. Here is his shot chart: https://www.nba.com/stats/player/1630567/shooting

The only thing he can't do right now is shoot. And everyone knows he can't shoot. And he still takes his man into the post and gets to and around the rim consistently. What do you think the floor will look like to him when he gets the jump shot % up? He is a better scorer than Wagner.

[zaymon]

Barnes has a more varied shot distribution, self creates more, but on slightly less efficiency. Wagner is more of a 3 pt or rim type scorer and beyond 3 pt shooting, I don't really see an advantage. Including playmaking for others and Barnes gets the nod imo.

Cade has the most varied shot distribution, most playmaking, and self creation but the worst efficiency. I think he has the most potential as a scorer/passer but he has to develop a few hot zone areas like Scottie already has 15 ft in.

The idea that Wagner is somehow the same level of prospect as Barnes/Mobley/Cade/Giddey/Kuminga/Green is pretty asinine. He could very well have a better career than some of these guys but the ceiling is just on a much lower level. But I know that will piss off some people (and I would be pissed off to hear that so plainly if Wagner was on my team as well) so I stay away from discussing it.

But when someone starts to question the ceiling of these 6, that's when I start to question their understanding of the NBA game. Like:

You make great points but its like talking to a wall. Barnes is great rookie, nobody is arguing this, but saying he is better scorer than Cade and Wagner becouse he has good percentages shooting those wierd hooks far from the rim against bad defenders ( becouse he cant get to the rim consistently) is just wrong and i wont support false narrative.
Today Barnes plays without FVV and its 6/21.

Barnes is 16.3 pts, 8.1 rebounds, 5 assists in 11 games without FVV. His FG% is better in games without FVV than in games with FVV. The Raptors don't run sets for Barnes so he creates a lot of his own opportunities. Here is his shot chart: https://www.nba.com/stats/player/1630567/shooting

The only thing he can't do right now is shoot. And everyone knows he can't shoot. And he still takes his man into the post and gets to and around the rim consistently. What do you think the floor will look like to him when he gets the jump shot % up? He is a better scorer than Wagner.

We can have different opinions its normal but i respect that you can present yours without personal insults.
Barnes has problems getting to the rim. He averages 4,6 drives per game and has 44,8 fg%.
Wagner averages 9,1 drives per game and has 45,4 fg%.
Franz Wagner is better at getting to the rim, he is better shooting from 3. Barnes is better scoring from midrange but most defenses are designed to allow such shots.
Pull up shooting is similar, Barnes has sligthly better fg% but Wagner has better efg% due to shooting 3s.
When you look at matchups Barnes is guarded by centers 12% of the time while Wagner 3,8%. You can defend Barnes with centers becouse he is less skilled.
You can interpret it as you like, its just my opinion. I hope both players develop nicely and make their fans proud.

[tdot_steel]

Barnes has a more varied shot distribution, self creates more, but on slightly less efficiency. Wagner is more of a 3 pt or rim type scorer and beyond 3 pt shooting, I don't really see an advantage. Including playmaking for others and Barnes gets the nod imo.

Cade has the most varied shot distribution, most playmaking, and self creation but the worst efficiency. I think he has the most potential as a scorer/passer but he has to develop a few hot zone areas like Scottie already has 15 ft in.

The idea that Wagner is somehow the same level of prospect as Barnes/Mobley/Cade/Giddey/Kuminga/Green is pretty asinine. He could very well have a better career than some of these guys but the ceiling is just on a much lower level. But I know that will piss off some people (and I would be pissed off to hear that so plainly if Wagner was on my team as well) so I stay away from discussing it.

But when someone starts to question the ceiling of these 6, that's when I start to question their understanding of the NBA game. Like:

You make great points but its like talking to a wall. Barnes is great rookie, nobody is arguing this, but saying he is better scorer than Cade and Wagner becouse he has good percentages shooting those wierd hooks far from the rim against bad defenders ( becouse he cant get to the rim consistently) is just wrong and i wont support false narrative.
Today Barnes plays without FVV and its 6/21.

Barnes is 16.3 pts, 8.1 rebounds, 5 assists in 11 games without FVV. His FG% is better in games without FVV than in games with FVV. The Raptors don't run sets for Barnes so he creates a lot of his own opportunities. Here is his shot chart: https://www.nba.com/stats/player/1630567/shooting

The only thing he can't do right now is shoot. And everyone knows he can't shoot. And he still takes his man into the post and gets to and around the rim consistently. What do you think the floor will look like to him when he gets the jump shot % up? He is a better scorer than Wagner.

We can have different opinions its normal but i respect that you can present yours without personal insults.
Barnes has problems getting to the rim. He averages 4,6 drives per game and has 44,8 fg%.
Wagner averages 9,1 drives per game and has 45,4 fg%.
Franz Wagner is better at getting to the rim, he is better shooting from 3. Barnes is better scoring from midrange but most defenses are designed to allow such shots.
Pull up shooting is similar, Barnes has sligthly better fg% but Wagner has better efg% due to shooting 3s.
When you look at matchups Barnes is guarded by centers 12% of the time while Wagner 3,8%. You can defend Barnes with centers becouse he is less skilled.
You can interpret it as you like, its just my opinion. I hope both players develop nicely and make their fans proud.

The reason Barnes is defended by center's 12% of the time is who else is the opposing center going to guard? FVV? Trent? Siakim? OG? Achiwa? Khem Birch? Process of elimination indicates he would be guarded by the opposition center. Plus the fact he is the Raptors most effective player in the post.

[PhilBlackson]

You make great points but its like talking to a wall. Barnes is great rookie, nobody is arguing this, but saying he is better scorer than Cade and Wagner becouse he has good percentages shooting those wierd hooks far from the rim against bad defenders ( becouse he cant get to the rim consistently) is just wrong and i wont support false narrative.
Today Barnes plays without FVV and its 6/21.

lol this is such an ignorant comment. I feel bad for you... He literally feasts on the opposing teams best defenders on a nightly basis but you're coming here making idiotic statements like that??? It's all good. All it does is prove you're a casual.
And yeah he had one bad shooting night last night but how did Wagner do against one of the worst teams in the league yesterday? Right.. he shot 3/12 against OKC.

Here's a highlight of Barnes schooling a "bad defender" (Matisse Thybule) from last night:

Yeah he schooled Thybulle by scoring 6/21 ? You contradict yourself without even knowing it. Big part of Raptor fans complain that Barnes is 4th-5th option on offense and now you say he scores against best defenders ? So is he last option or does he gets best defensive assignments you cant have it both ways. You act like a child, grow up.
ps. so Wagner scoring 11 pts on 12 shots is bad but Barnes scoring 13 points on 21 shots is good ? lol

Is the basis of your argument Barnes' worst shooting (as in singular) night of his ENTIRE rookie season?! lol that's even more laughable.

Being the 4th-5th option is the product of being a rookie on a good competitive team with an established hierarchy. You do understand that he can be a 4th-5th option and still have some of the best defenders assigned to him for when he gets the ball and the two not having to be mutually exclusive right?!? lol Pretty simple minded to think otherwise. Btw I'm not claiming he's solely assigned the best defenders but YOU are in fact claiming it's merely bad ones which is flat out wrong.

You also show you don't really know much about him when you think his offence is limited to "weird hooks from far" which ironically is YOU trying to create a false narrative because maybe you caught the random highlight here or there lately...here's just a couple of clips of him going at "bad defenders" like Brown, Tatum, KD, Mobley and doing much more than "weird hooks" lol

Watch on YouTube

Watch on YouTube

Watch on YouTube

Look I get it, you're thirsty af for people to acknowledge Wagner on the same level so you think you have downplay Barnes to do so but he's much better than the false narrative then you wish you could sell but no one is buying.

[zaymon]

lol this is such an ignorant comment. I feel bad for you... He literally feasts on the opposing teams best defenders on a nightly basis but you're coming here making idiotic statements like that??? It's all good. All it does is prove you're a casual.
And yeah he had one bad shooting night last night but how did Wagner do against one of the worst teams in the league yesterday? Right.. he shot 3/12 against OKC.

Here's a highlight of Barnes schooling a "bad defender" (Matisse Thybule) from last night:

Yeah he schooled Thybulle by scoring 6/21 ? You contradict yourself without even knowing it. Big part of Raptor fans complain that Barnes is 4th-5th option on offense and now you say he scores against best defenders ? So is he last option or does he gets best defensive assignments you cant have it both ways. You act like a child, grow up.
ps. so Wagner scoring 11 pts on 12 shots is bad but Barnes scoring 13 points on 21 shots is good ? lol

Is the basis of your argument Barnes' worst shooting (as in singular) night of his ENTIRE rookie season?! lol that's even more laughable.

Being the 4th-5th option is the product of being a rookie on a good competitive team with an established hierarchy. You do understand that he can be a 4th-5th option and still have some of the best defenders assigned to him for when he gets the ball and the two not having to be mutually exclusive right?!? lol Pretty simple minded to think otherwise. Btw I'm not claiming he's solely assigned the best defenders but YOU are in fact claiming it's merely bad ones which is flat out wrong.

You also show you don't really know much about him when you think his offence is limited to "weird hooks from far" which ironically is YOU trying to create a false narrative because maybe you caught the random highlight here or there lately...here's just a couple of clips of him going at "bad defenders" like Brown, Tatum, KD, Mobley and doing much more than "weird hooks" lol

Watch on YouTube

Watch on YouTube

Watch on YouTube

Look I get it, you're thirsty af for people to acknowledge Wagner on the same level so you think you have downplay Barnes to do so but he's much better than the false narrative then you wish you could sell but no one is buying.

I appreciate the clips but after watching they only support my argument. First its obvious Barnes is also defended by good defenders, its a switching league, but if he is 4-5 option teams are not scheming with him in mind which is crucial in this discussion.
In the first clip he made two open pull ups against Tatum and Horford. Nothing showing he is well regarded scorer. In the second clip he had nice baskets over Griffin, Claxton and Durant. The basket over Kessler Edwards i saw many times before. Against Cleveland he scored two tough baskets against Mobley, then against Markkanen and Garland. In no clip he generated easy looks for himself not counting transition and putbacks. Its like 4-5 great baskets which i saw earlier becouse his every good basket is hyped.

Wagner generates more easy looks for himself in one game than Barnes in three

Watch on YouTube

I dont downplay Barnes he is a great prospect, but he is not a top 2 scorer in this draft in my eyes.

[basketballRob]

no one really cares if a guard does it. FVV does step back jumpers too. Having a big wing who can guard C's that can also do step back jumpers....ya, thats pretty special. If Cade starts guarding Jokic and banging in the post with other C's, we'd see clips of that too.

You know that guard skills that Mobley shows? Theyre actually pretty below average for a guard. It's just special when a 7 footer is capable of it

cade is an inch shorter than barnes... wagner is like two inches taller and he has no problem putting the ball on the floor, doing step backs, running PnR, etc.

Scottie has a wingspan 3.5 inches wider than Wagner and is way stronger. Scotties built like a big, those 2 are not. He regularly uses his size and strength to push around big players, even veterans. That's why he's more efficient inside the 3 point line, and why he has more offensive rebounds than those 2 combined. And of course defensively Raptors regularly rely on Scottie to cover the 4 or 5 position for long stretches

Scottie is a big and Franz is a 2-3.

Sent from my SM-G950U using RealGM mobile app

[JonFromVA]

PPP on nba.com playtype isolation:

Sengun 1.09
Wagner 1.04
Green 0.96
Mobley 0.95
Barnes 0.89
Cunningham 0.89
Kuminga 0.88
Dosunmu 0.86
Suggs 0.65

Of course volume matters, but it's probably a little too early in these guys careers to be deciding who's going to end up being able to produce efficiently in isolation when Sengun may be the only rook that isn't dragging his team's Off Rtg down when they run an ISO for him.

If I missed someone, let me know, but I couldn't figure out how to get nba.com to filter by rooks.

[PhilBlackson]

Yeah he schooled Thybulle by scoring 6/21 ? You contradict yourself without even knowing it. Big part of Raptor fans complain that Barnes is 4th-5th option on offense and now you say he scores against best defenders ? So is he last option or does he gets best defensive assignments you cant have it both ways. You act like a child, grow up.
ps. so Wagner scoring 11 pts on 12 shots is bad but Barnes scoring 13 points on 21 shots is good ? lol

Is the basis of your argument Barnes' worst shooting (as in singular) night of his ENTIRE rookie season?! lol that's even more laughable.

Being the 4th-5th option is the product of being a rookie on a good competitive team with an established hierarchy. You do understand that he can be a 4th-5th option and still have some of the best defenders assigned to him for when he gets the ball and the two not having to be mutually exclusive right?!? lol Pretty simple minded to think otherwise. Btw I'm not claiming he's solely assigned the best defenders but YOU are in fact claiming it's merely bad ones which is flat out wrong.

You also show you don't really know much about him when you think his offence is limited to "weird hooks from far" which ironically is YOU trying to create a false narrative because maybe you caught the random highlight here or there lately...here's just a couple of clips of him going at "bad defenders" like Brown, Tatum, KD, Mobley and doing much more than "weird hooks" lol

Watch on YouTube

Watch on YouTube

Watch on YouTube

Look I get it, you're thirsty af for people to acknowledge Wagner on the same level so you think you have downplay Barnes to do so but he's much better than the false narrative then you wish you could sell but no one is buying.

I appreciate the clips but after watching they only support my argument. First its obvious Barnes is also defended by good defenders, its a switching league, but if he is 4-5 option teams are not scheming with him in mind which is crucial in this discussion.
In the first clip he made two open pull ups against Tatum and Horford. Nothing showing he is well regarded scorer. In the second clip he had nice baskets over Griffin, Claxton and Durant. The basket over Kessler Edwards i saw many times before. Against Cleveland he scored two tough baskets against Mobley, then against Markkanen and Garland. In no clip he generated easy looks for himself not counting transition and putbacks. Its like 4-5 great baskets which i saw earlier becouse his every good basket is hyped.

Wagner generates more easy looks for himself in one game than Barnes in three

Watch on YouTube

I dont downplay Barnes he is a great prospect, but he is not a top 2 scorer in this draft in my eyes.

So you post Wagner's SINGLE best game as your evidence?! lol ...let's just dismiss all statistical data because you post one HL. This is actually getting quite comical.

Wagner supposedly "generates more easy looks for himself in one game than Barnes in three" but yet defying all logic has a lower FG% and eFG% with an almost equal TS% (that should heavily favor him due to 3pt shot but doesn't). Franz is supposedly a better scorer but yet SCORES LESS on HIGHER USAGE plays on a bottom feeder that ranks as the 2nd WORST offensive team in the entire league that's BEGGING for offensive production (your argument is already dead at this point) so logically he should be outscoring Barnes and doing so by a substantial number if he's everything you claim but he's not. Scottie also has him beat in PER, W/S, has had numerous games that only historically great players have had, dwarfs him in rebounding despite being shorter, better passer with more assists despite lower usage, more steals and blocks per game but yeah in some dream world Wagner must be better (greenfont). It's actually kinda sad the level of cognitive dissonance you have.

Not to mention I never once said anything about him being a top 2 scorer but just pointing out your ridiculous stance that he only scores "weird hooks on bad defenders" which obviously you need to Strawman your way out of that embarrassing take and if we're referring to pure scoring I would take Cunningham and Green. You know the guys who actually are leading all rookie scorers and have been putting up 20+ppg lately?! Like I said your thirst to exalt Wagner is very apparent and it sucks because I do feel like he's a slept on player but no he's not in the same category, sorry.

[MotownMadness]

Cade with a efficient 18 at the half

[tmorgan]

Cade with a efficient 18 at the half

To be fair, this is close to a G-League game tonight.

[tmorgan]

I’m imagining Coach Casey in the pre-game meeting:

Young fellas, we have two goals tonight. Get your guy Cade a career high… and still lose. Can you do that for me?

[MoneyTalks41890]

Tre Mann, late entrant

[srhcan]

Barnes with 2 continuous bad games, I think its a combination of him running out of gas and facing 2 very good defenders