2021-22 NBA Season Discussion

[parsnips33]

Well, that's been the case ever since Kerr became head coach. Sometimes I wonder if he's ideological to a fault. You have probably the most dangerous pick and roll guard ever and don't run any pick and rolls for him.

It's also worth noting that the Warriors' main nemesis in the West during their dynasty years, the Rockets, went to the extreme opposite of the egalitarian style that Kerr favors and ended up with similar (and sometimes better) offensive results despite having less talent. I bet Morey and D'Antoni watches the Warriors with complete befuddlement.

It's worth noting that when the chips are down Warriors go-to play is still Steph-Draymond PNR.

I wonder if Warriors having a more diverse offense, while maybe capping their absolute ceiling, made their offense more resilient than those Rockets in a playoff setting. Granted Warriors had KD, but we still beat them before KD's arrival and after his injury.

It's a bit funny to imagine these guys that got beat by Kerr year after year looking down on him.

Kerr's dogmatic approach likely cost the Warriors a championship in 2016. Having Curry play off ball just made it that much easier for defenses to deny him the ball and NBA officiating has always allowed defenses to rough up guys off ball a lot more than they ever could on ball, and this is especially so during the playoffs. So Curry was not only worn out from running around screens and setting screens but it destroyed his rhythm when he finally could get the ball and do something with it, which was often as the shot clock was winding down.

The Cavs played pretty much the same defense on Curry that the Thunder did and the Thunder almost beat the Warriors in the WCF. Denying the offense's best offensive player the ball is always a huge win for the defense and the Warriors played right into their hands by willingly using Curry as a decoy. IMO, Kerr was badly outcoached in both series.

Definitely agree that Kerr's rigidity WITHIN a game is one of his biggest weaknesses (I think he's actually more malleable over the course of a series). Steph PNR and isos have always been an extremely effective way to generate good shots, and I think Kerr could be quicker to go to this when things get tough (you mentioned 2016, but I think this might be even more true in the 2019 finals after the team had been hammered by injuries)

However, I think there is a broader view to take. Would Draymond and Iguodala's offensive value be neutered by a more helio-centric Steph offense? Trevor Ariza and PJ Tucker were guys that contribute offensively without ever touching the ball with their spacing and high level corner 3 ball. Draymond and Iguodala and Livingston were not those type of players

[Peregrine01]

It's worth noting that when the chips are down Warriors go-to play is still Steph-Draymond PNR.

I wonder if Warriors having a more diverse offense, while maybe capping their absolute ceiling, made their offense more resilient than those Rockets in a playoff setting. Granted Warriors had KD, but we still beat them before KD's arrival and after his injury.

It's a bit funny to imagine these guys that got beat by Kerr year after year looking down on him.

Kerr's dogmatic approach likely cost the Warriors a championship in 2016. Having Curry play off ball just made it that much easier for defenses to deny him the ball and NBA officiating has always allowed defenses to rough up guys off ball a lot more than they ever could on ball, and this is especially so during the playoffs. So Curry was not only worn out from running around screens and setting screens but it destroyed his rhythm when he finally could get the ball and do something with it, which was often as the shot clock was winding down.

The Cavs played pretty much the same defense on Curry that the Thunder did and the Thunder almost beat the Warriors in the WCF. Denying the offense's best offensive player the ball is always a huge win for the defense and the Warriors played right into their hands by willingly using Curry as a decoy. IMO, Kerr was badly outcoached in both series.

Definitely agree that Kerr's rigidity WITHIN a game is one of his biggest weaknesses (I think he's actually more malleable over the course of a series). Steph PNR and isos have always been an extremely effective way to generate good shots, and I think Kerr could be quicker to go to this when things get tough (you mentioned 2016, but I think this might be even more true in the 2019 finals after the team had been hammered by injuries)

However, I think there is a broader view to take. Would Draymond and Iguodala's offensive value be neutered by a more helio-centric Steph offense? Trevor Ariza and PJ Tucker were guys that contribute offensively without ever touching the ball with their spacing and high level corner 3 ball. Draymond and Iguodala and Livingston were not those type of players

Iguodala and Livingston, yes. But then again, I don't think they were ever all that good offensively, even in Kerr's system.

Draymond, no. IMO, he and Curry have been the most lethal pick and roll combo in the league. Draymond isn't great as a scorer off the roll but has a telepathic connection with Curry and makes excellent reads in 4 on 3 situations going downhill. If anything, Draymond is at his absolute best on offense playing pick and roll with Curry.

[parsnips33]

Kerr's dogmatic approach likely cost the Warriors a championship in 2016. Having Curry play off ball just made it that much easier for defenses to deny him the ball and NBA officiating has always allowed defenses to rough up guys off ball a lot more than they ever could on ball, and this is especially so during the playoffs. So Curry was not only worn out from running around screens and setting screens but it destroyed his rhythm when he finally could get the ball and do something with it, which was often as the shot clock was winding down.

The Cavs played pretty much the same defense on Curry that the Thunder did and the Thunder almost beat the Warriors in the WCF. Denying the offense's best offensive player the ball is always a huge win for the defense and the Warriors played right into their hands by willingly using Curry as a decoy. IMO, Kerr was badly outcoached in both series.

Definitely agree that Kerr's rigidity WITHIN a game is one of his biggest weaknesses (I think he's actually more malleable over the course of a series). Steph PNR and isos have always been an extremely effective way to generate good shots, and I think Kerr could be quicker to go to this when things get tough (you mentioned 2016, but I think this might be even more true in the 2019 finals after the team had been hammered by injuries)

However, I think there is a broader view to take. Would Draymond and Iguodala's offensive value be neutered by a more helio-centric Steph offense? Trevor Ariza and PJ Tucker were guys that contribute offensively without ever touching the ball with their spacing and high level corner 3 ball. Draymond and Iguodala and Livingston were not those type of players

Iguodala and Livingston, yes. But then again, I don't think they were ever all that good offensively, even in Kerr's system.

Draymond, no. IMO, he and Curry have been the most lethal pick and roll combo in the league. Draymond isn't great as a scorer off the roll but has a telepathic connection with Curry and makes excellent reads in 4 on 3 situations going downhill. If anything, Draymond is at his absolute best on offense playing pick and roll with Curry.

Oh yeah don't get me wrong I think Steph/Draymond PNR is the defining play of the 2010s and maybe the best 2 man action ever

But the more Steph off-ball parts of the offense (split cuts out of the post, Steph downscreens, etc.) utilize Draymond/Iguodala/Livingston passing ability in a way that D'Antoni ball wouldn't be able to

[Doctor MJ]

It's worth noting that when the chips are down Warriors go-to play is still Steph-Draymond PNR.

I wonder if Warriors having a more diverse offense, while maybe capping their absolute ceiling, made their offense more resilient than those Rockets in a playoff setting. Granted Warriors had KD, but we still beat them before KD's arrival and after his injury.

It's a bit funny to imagine these guys that got beat by Kerr year after year looking down on him.

Kerr's dogmatic approach likely cost the Warriors a championship in 2016. Having Curry play off ball just made it that much easier for defenses to deny him the ball and NBA officiating has always allowed defenses to rough up guys off ball a lot more than they ever could on ball, and this is especially so during the playoffs. So Curry was not only worn out from running around screens and setting screens but it destroyed his rhythm when he finally could get the ball and do something with it, which was often as the shot clock was winding down.

The Cavs played pretty much the same defense on Curry that the Thunder did and the Thunder almost beat the Warriors in the WCF. Denying the offense's best offensive player the ball is always a huge win for the defense and the Warriors played right into their hands by willingly using Curry as a decoy. IMO, Kerr was badly outcoached in both series.

Definitely agree that Kerr's rigidity WITHIN a game is one of his biggest weaknesses (I think he's actually more malleable over the course of a series). Steph PNR and isos have always been an extremely effective way to generate good shots, and I think Kerr could be quicker to go to this when things get tough (you mentioned 2016, but I think this might be even more true in the 2019 finals after the team had been hammered by injuries)

However, I think there is a broader view to take. Would Draymond and Iguodala's offensive value be neutered by a more helio-centric Steph offense? Trevor Ariza and PJ Tucker were guys that contribute offensively without ever touching the ball with their spacing and high level corner 3 ball. Draymond and Iguodala and Livingston were not those type of players

Great points.

First, certainly I think Lue's coaching in that series deserves more praise than Kerr, and also more credit than I gave him at the time. While you had some folks back then touting Lue, there was a lot of skepticism like there's always been toward the coaches who succeed with LeBron.

Okay then:

Keep a more traditional offense and Draymond never becomes Draymond on offense, but worse:

Klay probably never becomes Klay. In fact, my understanding is that Klay's stagnation under Jackson had everything to do with why Jerry West & Jackson butted heads, and why West didn't simply want Jackson gone, but liked the idea of a motion offense. The stagnant offense didn't keep Klay from being a contributor, if Ariza/Tucker is all we care about. But if you wanted a true second scoring star, something needed to change.

Of course this then raises a couple questions, one evergreen, one about the future:

1. How much more would a (helio) LeBron be able to get out of Klay than a helio-Steph would? I'm not sure. I do think LeBron is a better passer and his tendency to work more inside-out is a recipe for getting other guys open, but there's a reason why helio ball tends to have the rep for guys standing in the corner doing nothing. To max out what Klay can give you, you need more than that, and to be honest, I don't think there's any evidence that LeBron is all that well-suited to getting the most out of other perimeter stars. He and Kyrie had some great offensive success together, but LeBron clearly didn't "make" Kyrie have the best handles in the history of the NBA.

2. If future Klay ends up not being good enough, then in theory the best team going forward might actually be one that kicks Klay to the curb and goes more traditional around Steph. Of course, given Klay's contract - to say nothing about his place in the culture - I don't know if the team can make that pivot.

[Prez]

This Celtics season turnaround is just stunning.

[falcolombardi]

Kerr's dogmatic approach likely cost the Warriors a championship in 2016. Having Curry play off ball just made it that much easier for defenses to deny him the ball and NBA officiating has always allowed defenses to rough up guys off ball a lot more than they ever could on ball, and this is especially so during the playoffs. So Curry was not only worn out from running around screens and setting screens but it destroyed his rhythm when he finally could get the ball and do something with it, which was often as the shot clock was winding down.

The Cavs played pretty much the same defense on Curry that the Thunder did and the Thunder almost beat the Warriors in the WCF. Denying the offense's best offensive player the ball is always a huge win for the defense and the Warriors played right into their hands by willingly using Curry as a decoy. IMO, Kerr was badly outcoached in both series.

Definitely agree that Kerr's rigidity WITHIN a game is one of his biggest weaknesses (I think he's actually more malleable over the course of a series). Steph PNR and isos have always been an extremely effective way to generate good shots, and I think Kerr could be quicker to go to this when things get tough (you mentioned 2016, but I think this might be even more true in the 2019 finals after the team had been hammered by injuries)

However, I think there is a broader view to take. Would Draymond and Iguodala's offensive value be neutered by a more helio-centric Steph offense? Trevor Ariza and PJ Tucker were guys that contribute offensively without ever touching the ball with their spacing and high level corner 3 ball. Draymond and Iguodala and Livingston were not those type of players

Great points.

First, certainly I think Lue's coaching in that series deserves more praise than Kerr, and also more credit than I gave him at the time. While you had some folks back then touting Lue, there was a lot of skepticism like there's always been toward the coaches who succeed with LeBron.

Okay then:

Keep a more traditional offense and Draymond never becomes Draymond on offense, but worse:

Klay probably never becomes Klay. In fact, my understanding is that Klay's stagnation under Jackson had everything to do with why Jerry West & Jackson butted heads, and why West didn't simply want Jackson gone, but liked the idea of a motion offense. The stagnant offense didn't keep Klay from being a contributor, if Ariza/Tucker is all we care about. But if you wanted a true second scoring star, something needed to change.

Of course this then raises a couple questions, one evergreen, one about the future:

1. How much more would a (helio) LeBron be able to get out of Klay than a helio-Steph would? I'm not sure. I do think LeBron is a better passer and his tendency to work more inside-out is a recipe for getting other guys open, but there's a reason why helio ball tends to have the rep for guys standing in the corner doing nothing. To max out what Klay can give you, you need more than that, and to be honest, I don't think there's any evidence that LeBron is all that well-suited to getting the most out of other perimeter stars. He and Kyrie had some great offensive success together, but LeBron clearly didn't "make" Kyrie have the best handles in the history of the NBA.

2. If future Klay ends up not being good enough, then in theory the best team going forward might actually be one that kicks Klay to the curb and goes more traditional around Steph. Of course, given Klay's contract - to say nothing about his place in the culture - I don't know if the team can make that pivot.

i am a bit confused where the lebron comparision came from and what it has to do with kerr criticism over him not using more pick and roll at points? but i think you made interesting points

Keep a more traditional offense and Draymond never becomes Draymond on offense, but worse:

agree, draymond unique strenghts and weaknesses make curry and warriors system perfect for him as it idea his strenghts and masks his weaknesses. As fas as good passing/bad scoring and shooting players go. curry and the motion offense is a great fit

How much more would a (helio) LeBron be able to get out of Klay than a helio-Steph would

probably similar tbh, curry motion offense and lebron om ball offense both create a lot of great looks, lebron/love/irving had comparable results offensively to curry/dursnt/klay after all

He and Kyrie had some great offensive success together, but LeBron clearly didn't "make" Kyrie have the best handles in the history of the NBA.

i mean yeah, kyrie is a good player, curry didnt make klay an all time great shooter either so i am unsure what you mean here?

also i think "some success" is an absolutely wild undrrstatement to how good those cavs offenses were

edit: i think i misread " some great success" as "some success". my mistake

[PaulieWal]

How much more would a (helio) LeBron be able to get out of Klay than a helio-Steph would? I'm not sure. I do think LeBron is a better passer and his tendency to work more inside-out is a recipe for getting other guys open, but there's a reason why helio ball tends to have the rep for guys standing in the corner doing nothing. To max out what Klay can give you, you need more than that, and to be honest, I don't think there's any evidence that LeBron is all that well-suited to getting the most out of other perimeter stars. He and Kyrie had some great offensive success together, but LeBron clearly didn't "make" Kyrie have the best handles in the history of the NBA.

I think a combo of LeBron/Klay/Curry or LeBron/Klay/Green would absolutely destroy the league offensively or defensively. LeBron has a multi-year sample size when playing with talent of moving the ball around and not just having "guys standing in the corner doing nothing. I think its a very unfair characterization to throw LeBron with that super helio group of Luka, Harden etc.

Also, LeBron and Kyrie ended up doing more 1 on 1 because of Kyrie's limitations. In 2015, he tried to move off the ball but quickly came back on ball once he realized Kyrie is just not a good flood general. And with Wade, yes, Wade gave up more but when they were humming in 2012, 2013 it was a thing of beauty. If only Wade had been able to stay healthy in 2012 & 2013 PS the perception of Wade playing with LeBron would be so different. But I watched every RS Heat game when Wade was healthy in 2012 n 2013, and they peaked during the 27 game win streak maximizing each other.

[falcolombardi]

How much more would a (helio) LeBron be able to get out of Klay than a helio-Steph would? I'm not sure. I do think LeBron is a better passer and his tendency to work more inside-out is a recipe for getting other guys open, but there's a reason why helio ball tends to have the rep for guys standing in the corner doing nothing. To max out what Klay can give you, you need more than that, and to be honest, I don't think there's any evidence that LeBron is all that well-suited to getting the most out of other perimeter stars. He and Kyrie had some great offensive success together, but LeBron clearly didn't "make" Kyrie have the best handles in the history of the NBA.

I think a combo of LeBron/Klay/Curry or LeBron/Klay/Green would absolutely destroy the league offensively or defensively. LeBron has a multi-year sample size when playing with talent of moving the ball around and not just having "guys standing in the corner doing nothing. I think its a very unfair characterization to throw LeBron with that super helio group of Luka, Harden etc.

Also, LeBron and Kyrie ended up doing more 1 on 1 because of Kyrie's limitations. In 2015, he tried to move off the ball but quickly came back on ball once he realized Kyrie is just not a good flood general. And with Wade, yes, Wade gave up more but when they were humming in 2012, 2013 it was a thing of beauty. If only Wade had been able to stay healthy in 2012 & 2013 PS the perception of Wade playing with LeBron would be so different. But I watched every RS Heat game when Wade was healthy in 2012 n 2013, and they peaked during the 27 game win streak maximizing each other.

i have to agree, lebron versátility off ball in áreas that are not junpshooting is understated (and even his jumpshot is merely average, not a hándicap per se)

he is a fantastic cutting and roll-man threath when playing with a skilled ball handler

[GSP]

This Celtics season turnaround is just stunning.

We're going to the finals

We'll see yall in the Ecf

[LukaTheGOAT]

How much more would a (helio) LeBron be able to get out of Klay than a helio-Steph would? I'm not sure. I do think LeBron is a better passer and his tendency to work more inside-out is a recipe for getting other guys open, but there's a reason why helio ball tends to have the rep for guys standing in the corner doing nothing. To max out what Klay can give you, you need more than that, and to be honest, I don't think there's any evidence that LeBron is all that well-suited to getting the most out of other perimeter stars. He and Kyrie had some great offensive success together, but LeBron clearly didn't "make" Kyrie have the best handles in the history of the NBA.

I think a combo of LeBron/Klay/Curry or LeBron/Klay/Green would absolutely destroy the league offensively or defensively. LeBron has a multi-year sample size when playing with talent of moving the ball around and not just having "guys standing in the corner doing nothing. I think its a very unfair characterization to throw LeBron with that super helio group of Luka, Harden etc.

Also, LeBron and Kyrie ended up doing more 1 on 1 because of Kyrie's limitations. In 2015, he tried to move off the ball but quickly came back on ball once he realized Kyrie is just not a good flood general. And with Wade, yes, Wade gave up more but when they were humming in 2012, 2013 it was a thing of beauty. If only Wade had been able to stay healthy in 2012 & 2013 PS the perception of Wade playing with LeBron would be so different. But I watched every RS Heat game when Wade was healthy in 2012 n 2013, and they peaked during the 27 game win streak maximizing each other.

i have to agree, lebron versátility off ball in áreas that are not junpshooting is understated (and even his jumpshot is merely average, not a hándicap per se)

he is a fantastic cutting and roll-man threath when playing with a skilled ball handler

Also it is early, but Kyrie's scoring performance without Lebron in the PS has not exactly greatly and there is stuff to suggest Lebron helped him.

His 3-yr PS scoring peak all happened in years with Lebron.

From 15-17:

Inflation Adjusted Points Per 75- 26.7 pts per 75 (rTS% of 4.3%). That mark is all-time scoring for a PG over 3 title runs (with so many minutes at 1891) a span that you have only really seen from Steph or CP3 (unless we count Jerry West as a PG and maybe some other people who aren't always counted as PG).

However, in the PS runs without Lebron:

18-19:

Inflation Adjusted Points Per 75- 21.8 Points Per 75 (rTS% of NEGATIVE 5.2%)

20-21:

Inflation Adjusted Points Per 75-22.6 Points Per 75 (rTS% of 1%)

As I mentioned, it is early, but Kyrie was an all-time great scoring PG that has fell down several tiers since his departure with Lebron. Perhaps it is fair to question how much of an offensive load you would like Kyrie to take on, as perhaps he benefits from someone who can dissect the defense for him.

His overall offensive impact has potentially dwindled as well

Per PS LEBRON, his offensive peak was from 15-17 with.

15-17: O-LEBRON of 3.90

19-21: O-LEBRON of 0.74

That is a major drop-off, where he went from looking better than 14-16 Harden, 18-20 Jimmy Butler, and 16-18 Westbrook, while also looking comparable to 17-19 Harden to not looking very spectacular.

The drop-off is noticeable in PS Backpicks OBPM as well.

15: 3.7
16: 4.8
17: 4.3
3-year peak is during this time at 4.4

19: 1
21: 2.81

He once again goes from looking like a strong all-nba level OFFENSIVE player from 15-17 to looking unspectacular after that period. One way or another, either the 15-17 stretch for Kyrie was luck or perhaps Lebron did a good job of helping to optimize him. Furthermore, Kyrie has improved quite a bit in the RS since 17 yet still hasn't quite recreated the same magic without Lebron.

[LukaTheGOAT]

Coming into the Lakers game, James Harden had been blocked 83 times in 55 games.
During the 20-21 season he was blocked 47 times in 44 games.

Information is per Basketball Reference.

[feyki]

Kyrie in the last playoffs was definitely as good as he's with Lebron, if not better. 24,1 PPG, 3,6 APG with +12 rORtg in 8 games is probably better than any stretch he had in the playoffs.

[LukaTheGOAT]

Also Boston has just jumped Utah in Net Rating and now is 2nd in the league at +6.8. Phoenix is #1 at (+8.4).

[The High Cyde]

Tatum has made the leap. He and Udoka might be placing the Celtics back on the map with a deep playoff run this year. You gotta hope Brown will figure it out soon as well. These playoffs are looking to be fantastic this year, and that’s just the East.

Just hope both Tatum and Luka enter next season in shape and ready to go, they’re both MVP caliber players…Zion and Kawhi too for that matter.

Hasn’t been looking too rosy for the Bulls lately, they and Cleveland have just been shell shocked with injuries and line up changes. Hopefully they fair better next year, but Demar might not be able to replicate this season.

[feyki]

Ten games to season over prediction:
East;
1- Heat 52W
2- Sixers 52W
3- Bucks 51W
4- Celts 51W
5- Bulls 49W
6- Nets/Raps/Cavs 45W
9- Hawks 42W
10- Cha 40W,

West;
1- Suns 63W
2- Grizz 54W
3- Mavs 52W
4- Jazz 51W
5- GSW 51W
6- DEN 49W
7- MIN 46W
8- Clips 39W
9- NO 35W
10- LA 34W
.

[Doctor MJ]

How much more would a (helio) LeBron be able to get out of Klay than a helio-Steph would? I'm not sure. I do think LeBron is a better passer and his tendency to work more inside-out is a recipe for getting other guys open, but there's a reason why helio ball tends to have the rep for guys standing in the corner doing nothing. To max out what Klay can give you, you need more than that, and to be honest, I don't think there's any evidence that LeBron is all that well-suited to getting the most out of other perimeter stars. He and Kyrie had some great offensive success together, but LeBron clearly didn't "make" Kyrie have the best handles in the history of the NBA.

I think a combo of LeBron/Klay/Curry or LeBron/Klay/Green would absolutely destroy the league offensively or defensively. LeBron has a multi-year sample size when playing with talent of moving the ball around and not just having "guys standing in the corner doing nothing. I think its a very unfair characterization to throw LeBron with that super helio group of Luka, Harden etc.

Also, LeBron and Kyrie ended up doing more 1 on 1 because of Kyrie's limitations. In 2015, he tried to move off the ball but quickly came back on ball once he realized Kyrie is just not a good flood general. And with Wade, yes, Wade gave up more but when they were humming in 2012, 2013 it was a thing of beauty. If only Wade had been able to stay healthy in 2012 & 2013 PS the perception of Wade playing with LeBron would be so different. But I watched every RS Heat game when Wade was healthy in 2012 n 2013, and they peaked during the 27 game win streak maximizing each other.

i have to agree, lebron versátility off ball in áreas that are not junpshooting is understated (and even his jumpshot is merely average, not a hándicap per se)

he is a fantastic cutting and roll-man threath when playing with a skilled ball handler

Hmm. If either of you could elaborate here on the specific basketball context you’re referring to that would be helpful.

Are you thinking of the Heat years? What teammates are you thinking of that LeBron had this sort of max-out-Klay type of effect?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[falcolombardi]

I think a combo of LeBron/Klay/Curry or LeBron/Klay/Green would absolutely destroy the league offensively or defensively. LeBron has a multi-year sample size when playing with talent of moving the ball around and not just having "guys standing in the corner doing nothing. I think its a very unfair characterization to throw LeBron with that super helio group of Luka, Harden etc.

Also, LeBron and Kyrie ended up doing more 1 on 1 because of Kyrie's limitations. In 2015, he tried to move off the ball but quickly came back on ball once he realized Kyrie is just not a good flood general. And with Wade, yes, Wade gave up more but when they were humming in 2012, 2013 it was a thing of beauty. If only Wade had been able to stay healthy in 2012 & 2013 PS the perception of Wade playing with LeBron would be so different. But I watched every RS Heat game when Wade was healthy in 2012 n 2013, and they peaked during the 27 game win streak maximizing each other.

i have to agree, lebron versátility off ball in áreas that are not junpshooting is understated (and even his jumpshot is merely average, not a hándicap per se)

he is a fantastic cutting and roll-man threath when playing with a skilled ball handler

Hmm. If either of you could elaborate here on the specific basketball context you’re referring to that would be helpful.

Are you thinking of the Heat years? What teammates are you thinking of that LeBron had this sort of max-out-Klay type of effect?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

máx out what ? individual Box stats or team results?

kyrie + lebron created really damn great results for example and is not like his boxscore stats were bad or limited him to a finisher (kyrie literally took more shots than lebron at cleveland)

mo williams became an all star pick Playing alongside lebron for whatever that is worth

[GSP]

Read on Twitter

Alot of Cp3 narratives about the Suns have gotten killed. Theyre a terrific team even without him. Cam Payne has been a starting level Pg when he gets the call. Ayton is just about as dominant a finisher, lob catching, pick and rolling big as there is. Generational touch at the rim. Absurd there are ppl that think hes just another Capela..... he dominated Kat on both ends yesterday

[eminence]

I don't remember a season off the top of my head where the positional requirements for ALL-NBA squads ever caused quite the crunch they will this year at the C spot.

Jokic/Embiid have both had 1st team level seasons, and KAT/Gobert have both had top 10 player seasons. But one of each pair will wind up on the outside looking in.

[70sFan]

I don't remember a season off the top of my head where the positional requirements for ALL-NBA squads ever caused quite the crunch they will this year at the C spot.

Jokic/Embiid have both had 1st team level seasons, and KAT/Gobert have both had top 10 player seasons. But one of each pair will wind up on the outside looking in.

It was a normal thing back in the 1970s.