Better defender at their peak - Ben Wallace or Gobert

[Greyhound]

I mean if I have Rudy Gobert or Ben Wallace, I'm not looking at them to be my perimeter stopper....

And anyone who thinks that Ben Wallace wouldn't get dragged into a billion PNR's if he played during Gobert's era is fooling themselves. And they are fooling themselves further if they think Wallace is shutting down Steph or Kawhi out at teh 3-pt line with a live dribble.

You are wrong. Ben Wallace started his career as a defensive specialist wing.

He had excellent feet and lightning quick hands. No team is targeting Ben Wallace anywhere on a basketball court.

Most stretch and perimeter bigs were given to Ben. Rasheed was the one utilized to neutralize most low post threats.

[feyki]

I bet if this was a poll on the General Board, it would be at least 70% Ben, and it wouldn't be based on much basketball analysis. I'm not saying Ben doesn't have a case against Rudy. I have them both on a list of guys that must be discussed when you're talking defensive goat. Ben has way better mobility and Rudy is a much larger obstacle in the pain.

This is not true. As I shared look at Ben's and Gober's teams shot defences in the paint:
17/21 Gober/Jazz; -0,9 rFG%
01/05 Ben/Pistons; -1,6 rFG%
. Even in the playoffs gap is much bigger than seasons.

[Texas Chuck]

I mean if I have Rudy Gobert or Ben Wallace, I'm not looking at them to be my perimeter stopper....

And anyone who thinks that Ben Wallace wouldn't get dragged into a billion PNR's if he played during Gobert's era is fooling themselves. And they are fooling themselves further if they think Wallace is shutting down Steph or Kawhi out at teh 3-pt line with a live dribble.

You are wrong. Ben Wallace started his career as a defensive specialist wing.

He had excellent feet and lightning quick hands. No team is targeting Ben Wallace anywhere on a basketball court.

Most stretch and perimeter bigs were given to Ben. Rasheed was the one utilized to neutralize most low post threats.

I'm wrong about what exactly?

Would you use Wallace as a perimeter stopper? Yeah, me neither.
Would Wallace never get pulled into PNR's? This appears to be a matter of debate. You and Jamaal think guards would avoid him. I disagree.
Would Ben Wallace shut down Kawhi or Steph? Considering nobody ever has consistently, I feel safe in saying neither would Ben Wallace. You simply don't shut down offensive players of this caliber and certainly not those two guys.

I get you want to defend Ben. Cool. He was an all-time great defender. But there seems to be this misunderstanding of how defense works if you think in 1 v 1 situations he;s locking down the best guards in the league.

[Greyhound]

I mean if I have Rudy Gobert or Ben Wallace, I'm not looking at them to be my perimeter stopper....

And anyone who thinks that Ben Wallace wouldn't get dragged into a billion PNR's if he played during Gobert's era is fooling themselves. And they are fooling themselves further if they think Wallace is shutting down Steph or Kawhi out at teh 3-pt line with a live dribble.

You are wrong. Ben Wallace started his career as a defensive specialist wing.

He had excellent feet and lightning quick hands. No team is targeting Ben Wallace anywhere on a basketball court.

Most stretch and perimeter bigs were given to Ben. Rasheed was the one utilized to neutralize most low post threats.

[q]I'm wrong about what exactly?[/b]

Would you use Wallace as a perimeter stopper? Yeah, me neither.
Would Wallace never get pulled into PNR's? This appears to be a matter of debate. You and Jamaal think guards would avoid him. I disagree.
Would Ben Wallace shut down Kawhi or Steph? Considering nobody ever has consistently, I feel safe in saying neither would Ben Wallace. You simply don't shut down offensive players of this caliber and certainly not those two guys.

I get you want to defend Ben. Cool. He was an all-time great defender. But there seems to be this misunderstanding of how defense works if you think in 1 v 1 situations he;s locking down the best guards in the league.

The him being dragged into a billion pick and rolls part. That implies that teams would target Ben Wallace as the weak point in their pick and roll attack ( the way they do Gobert).

I don’t see it.

Nobody is targeting Ben Wallace. Ben Wallace was a guy you avoided (not just under the basket, but everywhere).

Ben was a Draymond Green type individual defender with the ability to also protect the rim, generate deflections away from the basket, and control the defensive glass.

I think Ben would thrive in this small ball league. He would be able to switch and defend in space, while also giving you dominant defensive big man qualities.


Gobert is the better rim protector and I think he would be even better if he played in Wallace’s era. Wallace is the better defender for todays league.

[cupcakesnake]

I bet if this was a poll on the General Board, it would be at least 70% Ben, and it wouldn't be based on much basketball analysis. I'm not saying Ben doesn't have a case against Rudy. I have them both on a list of guys that must be discussed when you're talking defensive goat. Ben has way better mobility and Rudy is a much larger obstacle in the pain.

This is not true. As I shared look at Ben's and Gober's teams shot defences in the paint:
17/21 Gober/Jazz; -0,9 rFG%
01/05 Ben/Pistons; -1,6 rFG%
. Even in the playoffs gap is much bigger than seasons.

I just said he was a larger obstacle (at least half a foot taller with assumedly much longer arms). I didn't state he had better paint protection numbers.

But I appreciate you sharing those numbers. Where did you get them from? pbp? (I just wanna browse, not doubting their merit!)

I don't think these stats are automatic proof of Ben's paint superiority though. No one plays defense by themselves. While Rudy has often been defending the paint with Bojan Bogdanovic (I'd be curious to see just the Derrick Favors and Rudy numbers), Ben always had a great paint partner. Even before Sheed (and Tayshaun) joined him to form arguably the greatest defensive frontcourt ever, Ben played with Uncle Cliffy, a tremendously versatile defender even though he was older at that point. Ben also played with some meh defenders (Joe Smith), and some defenders I don't really remember (Mikki Moore).

Anyways, I'm not trying to refute your point. I'd just prefer to dig deeper into some of the lineup combinations before agreeing with you that Ben>Rudy as a reducer of paint fg%.

I'm not pro Ben or pro Rudy in this thread btw. I've been arguing for both players.

[cupcakesnake]

I mean if I have Rudy Gobert or Ben Wallace, I'm not looking at them to be my perimeter stopper....

And anyone who thinks that Ben Wallace wouldn't get dragged into a billion PNR's if he played during Gobert's era is fooling themselves. And they are fooling themselves further if they think Wallace is shutting down Steph or Kawhi out at teh 3-pt line with a live dribble.

You are wrong. Ben Wallace started his career as a defensive specialist wing.

He had excellent feet and lightning quick hands. No team is targeting Ben Wallace anywhere on a basketball court.

Most stretch and perimeter bigs were given to Ben. Rasheed was the one utilized to neutralize most low post threats.

I'm wrong about what exactly?

Would you use Wallace as a perimeter stopper? Yeah, me neither.
Would Wallace never get pulled into PNR's? This appears to be a matter of debate. You and Jamaal think guards would avoid him. I disagree.
Would Ben Wallace shut down Kawhi or Steph? Considering nobody ever has consistently, I feel safe in saying neither would Ben Wallace. You simply don't shut down offensive players of this caliber and certainly not those two guys.

I get you want to defend Ben. Cool. He was an all-time great defender. But there seems to be this misunderstanding of how defense works if you think in 1 v 1 situations he;s locking down the best guards in the league.

I'm not sure why the goal posts of this discussion have to be Ben "locking down the best guards in the league". Like you say, no one is doing that. The question is not: can Ben do this one part of defense better than anyone? The question is: how good is Ben in this kind of playtype relative to other defenders? Those of us who are pro-Ben on this specific question are saying: yeah, Ben is like Draymond, Ben is like Bam. Ben is well suited to guard this offensive action. Ben would not be a particularly attractive target. You're basically saying: all centers are targets, it doesn't matter if he's good or not. If that's your belief, then there's no discussion to have here. We already know Ben played the center position. I don't think anyone is arguing Ben has some magic power that makes him automatically immune to pick & rolls/isos against elite perimeter attackers. We're just saying he's good at it. I'd say he's good at it and not just relative to centers. I think his combination of size, quicks, and reflexes just makes him good in general. The Pistons full court press, when they busted it out, used Ben as the point of attack defender against point guards. There is plenty of footage of him moving his feet at an elite level.

[feyki]

I bet if this was a poll on the General Board, it would be at least 70% Ben, and it wouldn't be based on much basketball analysis. I'm not saying Ben doesn't have a case against Rudy. I have them both on a list of guys that must be discussed when you're talking defensive goat. Ben has way better mobility and Rudy is a much larger obstacle in the pain.

This is not true. As I shared look at Ben's and Gober's teams shot defences in the paint:
17/21 Gober/Jazz; -0,9 rFG%
01/05 Ben/Pistons; -1,6 rFG%
. Even in the playoffs gap is much bigger than seasons.

I just said he was a larger obstacle (at least half a foot taller with assumedly much longer arms). I didn't state he had better paint protection numbers.

But I appreciate you sharing those numbers. Where did you get them from? pbp? (I just wanna browse, not doubting their merit!)

I don't think these stats are automatic proof of Ben's paint superiority though. No one plays defense by themselves. While Rudy has often been defending the paint with Bojan Bogdanovic (I'd be curious to see just the Derrick Favors and Rudy numbers), Ben always had a great paint partner. Even before Sheed (and Tayshaun) joined him to form arguably the greatest defensive frontcourt ever, Ben played with Uncle Cliffy, a tremendously versatile defender even though he was older at that point. Ben also played with some meh defenders (Joe Smith), and some defenders I don't really remember (Mikki Moore).

Anyways, I'm not trying to refute your point. I'd just prefer to dig deeper into some of the lineup combinations before agreeing with you that Ben>Rudy as a reducer of paint fg%.

I'm not pro Ben or pro Rudy in this thread btw. I've been arguing for both players.

https://www.nba.com/stats/teams/opponent-shooting/ ,
https://www.basketball-reference.com/leagues/NBA_2022.html bottom in the tables, as opponing shooting.

Don't think being bigger makes you better rim protector, but I agree with your point on seperating team and individual fields. Too bad we don't have individual shot defences past 2014, just could try figure out with those team's areas shot defences on individual defence. Of course, this is about put on paper the actions in a span, in the space-time universe. I know what Ben Wallace did from the games I watched and I think he was not any worse than Gober in the paint. At least it was not a, any difference-maker gap.

[cupcakesnake]

This is not true. As I shared look at Ben's and Gober's teams shot defences in the paint:
17/21 Gober/Jazz; -0,9 rFG%
01/05 Ben/Pistons; -1,6 rFG%
. Even in the playoffs gap is much bigger than seasons.

I just said he was a larger obstacle (at least half a foot taller with assumedly much longer arms). I didn't state he had better paint protection numbers.

But I appreciate you sharing those numbers. Where did you get them from? pbp? (I just wanna browse, not doubting their merit!)

I don't think these stats are automatic proof of Ben's paint superiority though. No one plays defense by themselves. While Rudy has often been defending the paint with Bojan Bogdanovic (I'd be curious to see just the Derrick Favors and Rudy numbers), Ben always had a great paint partner. Even before Sheed (and Tayshaun) joined him to form arguably the greatest defensive frontcourt ever, Ben played with Uncle Cliffy, a tremendously versatile defender even though he was older at that point. Ben also played with some meh defenders (Joe Smith), and some defenders I don't really remember (Mikki Moore).

Anyways, I'm not trying to refute your point. I'd just prefer to dig deeper into some of the lineup combinations before agreeing with you that Ben>Rudy as a reducer of paint fg%.

I'm not pro Ben or pro Rudy in this thread btw. I've been arguing for both players.

https://www.nba.com/stats/teams/opponent-shooting/ ,
https://www.basketball-reference.com/leagues/NBA_2022.html bottom in the tables, as opponing shooting.

Don't think being bigger makes you better rim protector, but I agree with your point on seperating team and individual fields. Too bad we don't have individual shot defences past 2014, just could try figure out with those team's areas shot defences on individual defence. Of course, this is about put on paper the actions in a span, in the space-time universe. I know what Ben Wallace did from the games I watched and I think he was not any worse than Gober in the paint. At least it was not a, any difference-maker gap.

Thanks for the links!

I wont say this made him worse overall, but in my film study of Ben, I did notice there were often plays where his height hurt him. Usually in a defensive breakdown when he'd end up in a position where there wasn't time to jump, and Ben just wasn't an obstacle that a normal-sized center would be. 95% of the time, Ben could compensate with his ridiculously quick hops and instincts, but when caught flat-footed, Ben was at more of a disadvantage than an average sized center. While being taller doesn't automatically make you better, it is an obvious advantage to have. Ben was listed at 6'9", but was probably somewhere between 6'5" and 6'7" (but probably with a 7 foot plus wingspan).

Ben has other advantages that Rudy doesn't though, even just in terms of paint defense. He jumps higher and quicker, and has noticeably faster reflexes. Ben not only had a crazy max vert, but had this uncanny ability to swoop in for more horizontal jumps of just a step or two. Rudy is a mountain to climb, but you know what to expect when attacking him in the paint. Ben would appear out of nowhere to defend the paint when players thought it was empty.

[magicman1978]

I mean if I have Rudy Gobert or Ben Wallace, I'm not looking at them to be my perimeter stopper....

And anyone who thinks that Ben Wallace wouldn't get dragged into a billion PNR's if he played during Gobert's era is fooling themselves. And they are fooling themselves further if they think Wallace is shutting down Steph or Kawhi out at teh 3-pt line with a live dribble.

You are wrong. Ben Wallace started his career as a defensive specialist wing.

He had excellent feet and lightning quick hands. No team is targeting Ben Wallace anywhere on a basketball court.

Most stretch and perimeter bigs were given to Ben. Rasheed was the one utilized to neutralize most low post threats.

I'm wrong about what exactly?

Would you use Wallace as a perimeter stopper? Yeah, me neither.
Would Wallace never get pulled into PNR's? This appears to be a matter of debate. You and Jamaal think guards would avoid him. I disagree.
Would Ben Wallace shut down Kawhi or Steph? Considering nobody ever has consistently, I feel safe in saying neither would Ben Wallace. You simply don't shut down offensive players of this caliber and certainly not those two guys.

I get you want to defend Ben. Cool. He was an all-time great defender. But there seems to be this misunderstanding of how defense works if you think in 1 v 1 situations he;s locking down the best guards in the league.

I'm not sure I understand your logic here - no one is shutting down Steph or Kawhi, why do you expect Ben to? Yeah, guards probably wouldn't avoid him. But if you're offense is predicated around hunting out Big Ben on switches, then the defense you are going up against is likely comprised of the best defenders in the league. There's not a single team in this league where I think a prime Ben Wallace would be the first guy you decide to hunt out on switches. I don't see teams doing that with Bam, why do you think they would do it with Ben?

[Colbinii]

You are wrong. Ben Wallace started his career as a defensive specialist wing.

He had excellent feet and lightning quick hands. No team is targeting Ben Wallace anywhere on a basketball court.

Most stretch and perimeter bigs were given to Ben. Rasheed was the one utilized to neutralize most low post threats.

I'm wrong about what exactly?

Would you use Wallace as a perimeter stopper? Yeah, me neither.
Would Wallace never get pulled into PNR's? This appears to be a matter of debate. You and Jamaal think guards would avoid him. I disagree.
Would Ben Wallace shut down Kawhi or Steph? Considering nobody ever has consistently, I feel safe in saying neither would Ben Wallace. You simply don't shut down offensive players of this caliber and certainly not those two guys.

I get you want to defend Ben. Cool. He was an all-time great defender. But there seems to be this misunderstanding of how defense works if you think in 1 v 1 situations he;s locking down the best guards in the league.

I'm not sure I understand your logic here - no one is shutting down Steph or Kawhi, why do you expect Ben to? Yeah, guards probably wouldn't avoid him. But if you're offense is predicated around hunting out Big Ben on switches, then the defense you are going up against is likely comprised of the best defenders in the league. There's not a single team in this league where I think a prime Ben Wallace would be the first guy you decide to hunt out on switches. I don't see teams doing that with Bam, why do you think they would do it with Ben?

I think one thing about teams hunting Gobert on switches is because everyone else on Utah is so horrendous at protecting the rim that it makes sense to force someone else to protect the rim.

[The High Cyde]

If Isaiah Stewart isn’t being played off the court Ben won’t be either.

[magicman1978]

I'm wrong about what exactly?

Would you use Wallace as a perimeter stopper? Yeah, me neither.
Would Wallace never get pulled into PNR's? This appears to be a matter of debate. You and Jamaal think guards would avoid him. I disagree.
Would Ben Wallace shut down Kawhi or Steph? Considering nobody ever has consistently, I feel safe in saying neither would Ben Wallace. You simply don't shut down offensive players of this caliber and certainly not those two guys.

I get you want to defend Ben. Cool. He was an all-time great defender. But there seems to be this misunderstanding of how defense works if you think in 1 v 1 situations he;s locking down the best guards in the league.

I'm not sure I understand your logic here - no one is shutting down Steph or Kawhi, why do you expect Ben to? Yeah, guards probably wouldn't avoid him. But if you're offense is predicated around hunting out Big Ben on switches, then the defense you are going up against is likely comprised of the best defenders in the league. There's not a single team in this league where I think a prime Ben Wallace would be the first guy you decide to hunt out on switches. I don't see teams doing that with Bam, why do you think they would do it with Ben?

I think one thing about teams hunting Gobert on switches is because everyone else on Utah is so horrendous at protecting the rim that it makes sense to force someone else to protect the rim.

I haven't watched them this year, but against the Clippers I think it was more Utah's horrendous perimeter defense that was the issue. Instead of looking for Gobert on switches, they attacked him by going small spreading out offense and having their players attack the Utah's perimeter defenders one-on-one and then force Gobert to help when they get blown by, forcing him to try to defend the paint as well as the 3.

[Colbinii]

I'm not sure I understand your logic here - no one is shutting down Steph or Kawhi, why do you expect Ben to? Yeah, guards probably wouldn't avoid him. But if you're offense is predicated around hunting out Big Ben on switches, then the defense you are going up against is likely comprised of the best defenders in the league. There's not a single team in this league where I think a prime Ben Wallace would be the first guy you decide to hunt out on switches. I don't see teams doing that with Bam, why do you think they would do it with Ben?

I think one thing about teams hunting Gobert on switches is because everyone else on Utah is so horrendous at protecting the rim that it makes sense to force someone else to protect the rim.

I haven't watched them this year, but against the Clippers I think it was more Utah's horrendous perimeter defense that was the issue. Instead of looking for Gobert on switches, they attacked him by going small spreading out offense and having their players attack the Utah's perimeter defenders one-on-one and then force Gobert to help when they get blown by, forcing him to try to defend the paint as well as the 3.

I agree, this is something I have already stated in this thread.

I'm simply responding to your point about teams hunting Gobert.

[Texas Chuck]

I'm not sure why the goal posts of this discussion have to be Ben "locking down the best guards in the league". Like you say, no one is doing that. The question is not: can Ben do this one part of defense better than anyone? The question is: how good is Ben in this kind of playtype relative to other defenders? Those of us who are pro-Ben on this specific question are saying: yeah, Ben is like Draymond, Ben is like Bam. Ben is well suited to guard this offensive action. Ben would not be a particularly attractive target. You're basically saying: all centers are targets, it doesn't matter if he's good or not. If that's your belief, then there's no discussion to have here. We already know Ben played the center position. I don't think anyone is arguing Ben has some magic power that makes him automatically immune to pick & rolls/isos against elite perimeter attackers. We're just saying he's good at it. I'd say he's good at it and not just relative to centers. I think his combination of size, quicks, and reflexes just makes him good in general. The Pistons full court press, when they busted it out, used Ben as the point of attack defender against point guards. There is plenty of footage of him moving his feet at an elite level.

yeah that's my bad. The tone of a post just saying "you are wrong" led me to respond in a way that should have been more constructive.

Where I stand is Ben Wallace would likely be one of the best center options to defend the PNR in the league. But as a center he would still be vulnerable. I feel like both of those things can be true and I don't think its unfair for me to believe that even the best centers are going to find matchups where they can be taken advantage of. I only have mentioned it at all because multiple posters have implied or outright stated that he would not struggle with these matchups. I disagree.

As to how he good he is at it compared to say Paul George or engaged Kawhi or OG or Mikal Bridges or Marcus Smart or name your elite wing defenders, I'm still going to give the edge to those players over Wallace. Not just in terms of physical capabilties(this is where I am in disagreement with some itt) but also just in sheer repetition of defending this action and defending these elite perimeter players in a no hand-check league.

[magicman1978]

I think one thing about teams hunting Gobert on switches is because everyone else on Utah is so horrendous at protecting the rim that it makes sense to force someone else to protect the rim.

I haven't watched them this year, but against the Clippers I think it was more Utah's horrendous perimeter defense that was the issue. Instead of looking for Gobert on switches, they attacked him by going small spreading out offense and having their players attack the Utah's perimeter defenders one-on-one and then force Gobert to help when they get blown by, forcing him to try to defend the paint as well as the 3.

I agree, this is something I have already stated in this thread.

I'm simply responding to your point about teams hunting Gobert.

Ah, ok. Probably a misunderstanding then. I was just focused on the discussion around Ben, not Gobert.

[Greyhound]

I'm not sure why the goal posts of this discussion have to be Ben "locking down the best guards in the league". Like you say, no one is doing that. The question is not: can Ben do this one part of defense better than anyone? The question is: how good is Ben in this kind of playtype relative to other defenders? Those of us who are pro-Ben on this specific question are saying: yeah, Ben is like Draymond, Ben is like Bam. Ben is well suited to guard this offensive action. Ben would not be a particularly attractive target. You're basically saying: all centers are targets, it doesn't matter if he's good or not. If that's your belief, then there's no discussion to have here. We already know Ben played the center position. I don't think anyone is arguing Ben has some magic power that makes him automatically immune to pick & rolls/isos against elite perimeter attackers. We're just saying he's good at it. I'd say he's good at it and not just relative to centers. I think his combination of size, quicks, and reflexes just makes him good in general. The Pistons full court press, when they busted it out, used Ben as the point of attack defender against point guards. There is plenty of footage of him moving his feet at an elite level.

yeah that's my bad. The tone of a post just saying "you are wrong" led me to respond in a way that should have been more constructive.

Where I stand is Ben Wallace would likely be one of the best center options to defend the PNR in the league. But as a center he would still be vulnerable. I feel like both of those things can be true and I don't think its unfair for me to believe that even the best centers are going to find matchups where they can be taken advantage of. I only have mentioned it at all because multiple posters have implied or outright stated that he would not struggle with these matchups. I disagree.

As to how he good he is at it compared to say Paul George or engaged Kawhi or OG or Mikal Bridges or Marcus Smart or name your elite wing defenders, I'm still going to give the edge to those players over Wallace. Not just in terms of physical capabilties(this is where I am in disagreement with some itt) but also just in sheer repetition of defending this action and defending these elite perimeter players in a no hand-check league.

I apologize for that, guy.

Looking back at it, I came in a bit hot. I could have made the same point in a more cordial/ neutral manner. I will handle it different next go round.

[Texas Chuck]

Totally unnecessary apology, but I appreciate that you made it. I'm responsible for my own tone, not you.

But more back to my point. My belief is even the best centers at switching onto the perimeter are going to be vulnerable and not just against the elite players, but really any quick guard or even wings with a good first step. So just as I think Tim Duncan was a notably better defender than Kevin Garnett despite the "middle linebacker" abilities of KG because he was better at the most valuable things, I would want to compare Wallace/Gobert much more based on how they anchor a defense and provide rim protection.

Fekyi posted some numbers suggesting Wallace might have been even more effective in that regard than Gobert which is great info. I wonder if someone has the relative attempts. I would think both guys also served as effective deterrents from even attempting shots in the paint and it would be interesting and informative to see if one has a clear edge there.

I just think very few even great wings can truly make a notable difference one on one in space against the best offensive perimeter players though much less a center, so while Wallace should get a bit of a bump if one believes he would fare considerably better than Gobert(note: I am personally skeptical about this, but clearly several posters itt think this to be true so I'll concede it for this point), it only has so much relevance imo.

I just look at the impact Rudy Gobert has had over the past several seasons and I believe it goes beyond mere DPOY, but approaches near MVP level play. I struggle to imagine Ben Wallace in today's game being an MVP level player, The Jazz are just a completely different team with Gobert than without. His impact is off the charts and he allows them to play those offensive lineups that give them their elite offense.

This is mostly a defense of Rudy Gobert for me rather than a dismissal of Ben Wallace. I think in his own era Ben Wallace stacks up very well against Gobert, but when the thread moved to projections that Wallace would be much more effective than Gobert in this one, I just can't get there.