2021-22 NBA Season Discussion

[eminence]

I don't remember a season off the top of my head where the positional requirements for ALL-NBA squads ever caused quite the crunch they will this year at the C spot.

Jokic/Embiid have both had 1st team level seasons, and KAT/Gobert have both had top 10 player seasons. But one of each pair will wind up on the outside looking in.

It was a normal thing back in the 1970s.

Which seasons would you point to in particular?

[GSP]

I don't remember a season off the top of my head where the positional requirements for ALL-NBA squads ever caused quite the crunch they will this year at the C spot.

Jokic/Embiid have both had 1st team level seasons, and KAT/Gobert have both had top 10 player seasons. But one of each pair will wind up on the outside looking in.

90s?

Hakeem, Robinson, Ewing, Shaq.... Mutombo is prolly better than Rudy and he didn't even start getting any selections till the first 3 were shot by the late 90s. Brad Daugherty was prolly on the same level as Kat and wasnt considered either.

[eminence]

I don't remember a season off the top of my head where the positional requirements for ALL-NBA squads ever caused quite the crunch they will this year at the C spot.

Jokic/Embiid have both had 1st team level seasons, and KAT/Gobert have both had top 10 player seasons. But one of each pair will wind up on the outside looking in.

90s?

Hakeem, Robinson, Ewing, Shaq.... Mutombo is prolly better than Rudy and he didn't even start getting any selections till the first 3 were shot by the late 90s. Brad Daugherty was prolly on the same level as Kat and wasnt considered either.

Mid 90's probably a good pick. Prior Shaq not there, after Ewing/Hakeem fade out from that level of relevance.

I'm not that high on Mutombo/Daugherty.

[GSP]

I don't remember a season off the top of my head where the positional requirements for ALL-NBA squads ever caused quite the crunch they will this year at the C spot.

Jokic/Embiid have both had 1st team level seasons, and KAT/Gobert have both had top 10 player seasons. But one of each pair will wind up on the outside looking in.

90s?

Hakeem, Robinson, Ewing, Shaq.... Mutombo is prolly better than Rudy and he didn't even start getting any selections till the first 3 were shot by the late 90s. Brad Daugherty was prolly on the same level as Kat and wasnt considered either.

Mid 90's probably a good pick. Prior Shaq not there, after Ewing/Hakeem fade out from that level of relevance.

I'm not that high on Mutombo/Daugherty.

Yeah but then there was Mourning to factor in the latter part

[eminence]

90s?

Hakeem, Robinson, Ewing, Shaq.... Mutombo is prolly better than Rudy and he didn't even start getting any selections till the first 3 were shot by the late 90s. Brad Daugherty was prolly on the same level as Kat and wasnt considered either.

Mid 90's probably a good pick. Prior Shaq not there, after Ewing/Hakeem fade out from that level of relevance.

I'm not that high on Mutombo/Daugherty.

Yeah but then there was Mourning to factor in the latter part

Ehh, by the time Mourning emerged as that level of guy both Hakeem/Ewing were out of the discussion. Only Shaq/Robinson remaining.

[falcolombardi]

I don't remember a season off the top of my head where the positional requirements for ALL-NBA squads ever caused quite the crunch they will this year at the C spot.

Jokic/Embiid have both had 1st team level seasons, and KAT/Gobert have both had top 10 player seasons. But one of each pair will wind up on the outside looking in.

90s?

Hakeem, Robinson, Ewing, Shaq.... Mutombo is prolly better than Rudy and he didn't even start getting any selections till the first 3 were shot by the late 90s. Brad Daugherty was prolly on the same level as Kat and wasnt considered either.

90's were stacked at the top with centers but i dont think those guys overlapped that neatly

when shaq broke out as a superstar ewing was leaving his prime and hakeem would do soon after

in modern era jokic,embiid, gobert and if you include him as a center, giannis all roughly overlap age and prime wise which is unusual

[falcolombardi]

saw this post in the general board and i think is Spot on how jokic incredible seasom has obscured giannis own slightly less incredible season

(by @ronswanson)

Jokic would still be my vote if the season ended today, but now that his ludicrous, early-season on/off numbers have fallen back to earth, you'd have to cling a lot to RAPTOR and RPM (and subsequently how those metrics quantify defensive impact) to convince me that he's in a different tier from Giannis this season. It's still pretty close across the statistical spectrum:

PER: 32.5 vs. 32.2 (both would be all-time records)
WS/48: .297 vs. .289
BPM: 13.8 vs. 11.1
EPM: 8.6 vs. 7.2
Scoring: 26.2 PPG on 65% TS vs. 29.7 PPG on 63% TS
on/off: +7.7 ON (+13.8 on/off) vs. +8.3 ON (+10.6 on/off)

Again, there's some noise in the defensive catch-all metrics with things like rebounding totals (we don't really need numbers to tell us that Giannis is a more impactful defender than Jokic) that I think is exaggerating the gap. EPM seems to be the only metric that takes a more measured/adjusted take on Jokic's defense (1.3), but for whatever reason it still doesn't like Giannis very much at all (1.0 vs. Curry at 1.5). Not sure why the defensive metrics are being so unkind to a guy who's probably going to finish Top-3 in the DPOTY race, but it is what it is. But it's definitely something we need to account for when looking at the overall numbers.

[HeartBreakKid]

I don't remember a season off the top of my head where the positional requirements for ALL-NBA squads ever caused quite the crunch they will this year at the C spot.

Jokic/Embiid have both had 1st team level seasons, and KAT/Gobert have both had top 10 player seasons. But one of each pair will wind up on the outside looking in.

90s?

Hakeem, Robinson, Ewing, Shaq.... Mutombo is prolly better than Rudy and he didn't even start getting any selections till the first 3 were shot by the late 90s. Brad Daugherty was prolly on the same level as Kat and wasnt considered either.

You're comparing an entire decade to like a 3 year stretch though. By 2030 there very well could be several other great Cs the level of Mutumbo etc.

[falcolombardi]

I don't remember a season off the top of my head where the positional requirements for ALL-NBA squads ever caused quite the crunch they will this year at the C spot.

Jokic/Embiid have both had 1st team level seasons, and KAT/Gobert have both had top 10 player seasons. But one of each pair will wind up on the outside looking in.

90s?

Hakeem, Robinson, Ewing, Shaq.... Mutombo is prolly better than Rudy and he didn't even start getting any selections till the first 3 were shot by the late 90s. Brad Daugherty was prolly on the same level as Kat and wasnt considered either.

You're comparing an entire decade to like a 3 year stretch though. By 2030 there very well could be several other great Cs the level of Mutumbo etc.

you hit into somethingh that is very common

people look at the current year released music or videogames or movies or anythingh and say "it was so much better in the old day"

then give examples of like a full decade classics against a single current year

[70sFan]

I don't remember a season off the top of my head where the positional requirements for ALL-NBA squads ever caused quite the crunch they will this year at the C spot.

Jokic/Embiid have both had 1st team level seasons, and KAT/Gobert have both had top 10 player seasons. But one of each pair will wind up on the outside looking in.

It was a normal thing back in the 1970s.

Which seasons would you point to in particular?

1973/74 with Kareem, McAdoo, Lanier and Cowens finishing in the top 4 in MVP voting (and Thurmond being 8th).

[LukaTheGOAT]

Jordan Poole during the last 3 weeks:

▫️28.0 Points on +13.2 rTS
▫️5.4 Assists
▫️3.6 Rebounds
▫️1.1 Steals
▫️78% Rim FG, 50% 3P
▫️56% Short MR, 43% Long MR
▫️+21.9 net-swing (yes, aware it’s a small sample)
▫️5.1 team rORTG with Poole on

[RCM88x]

Feel like we're gonna have some really terrible postseason awards and All-NBA teams. Just feels like the narratives are getting out of hand.

Doesn't help that it feels like we've had two completely different seasons combined into 1 and people selectively have chosen when to forget the first one.

[Doctor MJ]

Feel like we're gonna have some really terrible postseason awards and All-NBA teams. Just feels like the narratives are getting out of hand.

Doesn't help that it feels like we've had two completely different seasons combined into 1 and people selectively have chosen when to forget the first one.

It's definitely a hard year for awards like this, but I'm curious what you specifically see with out of control narrative.

One thing I'll say: I really thought there was a serious possibility of a big narrative wave leading to Chris Paul winning the MVP this year until he got hurt, but with him out, I'm not actually sure who you're thinking benefiting.

[Doctor MJ]

It was a normal thing back in the 1970s.

Which seasons would you point to in particular?

1973/74 with Kareem, McAdoo, Lanier and Cowens finishing in the top 4 in MVP voting (and Thurmond being 8th).

Yup. It's driving me nuts all these talking heads being bothered by All-NBA not being the same thing as a Top X list as if they were the first to ever realize that these aren't the same thing, and as if that means there's something wrong with the concept of All-NBA.

For myself, I don't put much effort into coming up with All-NBA teams because of these sort of issues - when I'm looking at top tier stars, I'm using MVP/POY analysis, when I'm looking at lower players, I tend to do more team level analysis - but anyone who has been thinking about All-NBA "seriously" for years who is only now detecting the issue hasn't really been thinking all that seriously. From the time of Russell/Wilt this has been a known wrinkle. If you're a hobbyist, cool, but for professional journalists to talk with such ignorance is maddening because it's not like grasping the issue required advanced math skills or intensive competitive basketball experience. All it takes is asking "Huh, maybe I should go and look at how historical MVP voting matched with All-NBA voting in years where we know rival big men were battling."

Anyway, all this is to say that I hate when people are trying to squeeze Embiid and Jokic both on the 1st team. Doing that just renders the current votes inconsistent with historical precedent, and thus makes all All-NBA data less meaningful.

[RCM88x]

Feel like we're gonna have some really terrible postseason awards and All-NBA teams. Just feels like the narratives are getting out of hand.

Doesn't help that it feels like we've had two completely different seasons combined into 1 and people selectively have chosen when to forget the first one.

It's definitely a hard year for awards like this, but I'm curious what you specifically see with out of control narrative.

One thing I'll say: I really thought there was a serious possibility of a big narrative wave leading to Chris Paul winning the MVP this year until he got hurt, but with him out, I'm not actually sure who you're thinking benefiting.

For one, this seeming voter fatigue thing that has prevented the top 2 (imo) MVP candidates from running away with this race, I'm sure you know who I'm talking about here. But both these guys are going to be right at the top of any future "top MVP snubs" list when people can look back on this season with some hindsight and aren't so tied up with arbitrary seeding and team success requirements.

Everything seems to be so reactionary, like every game there is a new "favorite" and then two games later that guy is behind.

We've also suddenly got this situation where people finally are taking the suns for a legit team and have retroactively tried to find an MVP candidate simply because of the teams record and pushed Booker into that spot. But does anyone actually think he's even a top 2 guard in the league let alone the MVP of the league? Sort of the same with Ja Morant this year but both feel like Derrick Rose situations where people will look back and wonder why they were viewed as highly as they were at the time.

Perhaps I'm just off base here but to me it seems ridiculous that we are even talking about the MVP race being anything other than a battle between Giannis and Jokic.

[Colbinii]

Feel like we're gonna have some really terrible postseason awards and All-NBA teams. Just feels like the narratives are getting out of hand.

Doesn't help that it feels like we've had two completely different seasons combined into 1 and people selectively have chosen when to forget the first one.

It's definitely a hard year for awards like this, but I'm curious what you specifically see with out of control narrative.

One thing I'll say: I really thought there was a serious possibility of a big narrative wave leading to Chris Paul winning the MVP this year until he got hurt, but with him out, I'm not actually sure who you're thinking benefiting.

For one, this seeming voter fatigue thing that has prevented the top 2 (imo) MVP candidates from running away with this race, I'm sure you know who I'm talking about here. But both these guys are going to be right at the top of any future "top MVP snubs" list when people can look back on this season with some hindsight and aren't so tied up with arbitrary seeding and team success requirements.

Everything seems to be so reactionary, like every game there is a new "favorite" and then two games later that guy is behind.

We've also suddenly got this situation where people finally are taking the suns for a legit team and have retroactively tried to find an MVP candidate simply because of the teams record and pushed Booker into that spot. But does anyone actually think he's even a top 2 guard in the league let alone the MVP of the league? Sort of the same with Ja Morant this year but both feel like Derrick Rose situations where people will look back and wonder why they were viewed as highly as they were at the time.

Perhaps I'm just off base here but to me it seems ridiculous that we are even talking about the MVP race being anything other than a battle between Giannis and Jokic.

I agree with all this. It should be Jokic>=Giannis>>Everyone Else

[SeniorWalker]

Do any of you guys see the Suns being threatened in the west playoffs this year? The east seems like it may be a bloodbath but the west, since curry got hurt, I'm not seeing the drama unfolding.

Also, I still like the Bucks chances of repeating based on what I see today. Wouldn't say they're the overwhelming favorites by any stretch but they're finally getting their full roster together and I think starting to get more serious. I had a feeling all year they were going through the motions, which is partially why I have Jokic over Giannis as my MVP (even though Giannis imo is the best overall player in the NBA now).

[falcolombardi]

Do any of you guys see the Suns being threatened in the west playoffs this year? The east seems like it may be a bloodbath but the west, since curry got hurt, I'm not seeing the drama unfolding.

Also, I still like the Bucks chances of repeating based on what I see today. Wouldn't say they're the overwhelming favorites by any stretch but they're finally getting their full roster together and I think starting to get more serious. I had a feeling all year they were going through the motions, which is partially why I have Jokic over Giannis as my MVP (even though Giannis imo is the best overall player in the NBA now).

i thinl the early season warriors with that absurd defense + a strong curry shooting series could let warriors "sneak" past suns (to a probable sixers/bucks/boston finals matchup where i feel they Match up worse than vs phoenix)

i dunno, if they are at their best i would be worried about the warriors if i was a suns fan, i think their strenghts are the kind that give suns a harder challenge (their smart, switchable defense mainly)

on the other hand i think sixers/bucks interior game and perimeter stoppers would be a poison pill to warriors in both ends and boston switching ability and plétora of strong perimeter guys too

[70sFan]

https://youtu.be/s6k0SFE0R1I?t=53

This play shows how massive the difference is between 1992 and 2022 officiating. No ref would even call that move a travel now.

[SeniorWalker]

Do any of you guys see the Suns being threatened in the west playoffs this year? The east seems like it may be a bloodbath but the west, since curry got hurt, I'm not seeing the drama unfolding.

Also, I still like the Bucks chances of repeating based on what I see today. Wouldn't say they're the overwhelming favorites by any stretch but they're finally getting their full roster together and I think starting to get more serious. I had a feeling all year they were going through the motions, which is partially why I have Jokic over Giannis as my MVP (even though Giannis imo is the best overall player in the NBA now).

i thinl the early season warriors with that absurd defense + a strong curry shooting series could let warriors "sneak" past suns (to a probable sixers/bucks/boston finals matchup where i feel they Match up worse than vs phoenix)

i dunno, if they are at their best i would be worried about the warriors if i was a suns fan, i think their strenghts are the kind that give suns a harder challenge (their smart, switchable defense mainly)

on the other hand i think sixers/bucks interior game and perimeter stoppers would be a poison pill to warriors in both ends and boston switching ability and plétora of strong perimeter guys too

I definitely agree if the dubs get healthy. I just thought steph was questionable to start by the playoffs. And he's gonna have to work himself back into shape. I'm not that confident if he's not close to running on all cylinders.

I also agree that the dubs match up worse against the east. The bucks and the sixers destroy them imo, they're too small.