2021-22 NBA Rookie Thread (part 6) - with ROY poll

[LBJKB24MJ23]

I can see the argument above - Barnes does a couple of "flashy" no look passes that aren't necessary. lol. the guy he's passing the ball to - there's noone covering him to begin with lol.

[HotelVitale]

No. Nonsense is to think 1st year redraft is a good thing. Only a fool will think like that. There are so many examples of players who have shown they are better then where they were drafted after couple of years. Similarly there are so many examples of players who have shown they are not worth the position where they were drafted after couple of years. I would say to wait until at least 3 years before doing a redraft.

I’m not advocating for this as an exercise, if that’s what you two are confused about. I have definitely learned an extensive amount more about these players than based on our limited knowledge going into the draft though, that is for sure. Such is the 1 and done era.

No doubt. We know more now than predraft. My point was more so that what we know now may not be indicative of how things track years from now. I think around years 3-5, we will have a better gauge on these players impact and ability with some outlier development maybe even past that time frame. By year 10, we will have a better gauge on their longevity and accolades.

Both things can be true, it's interesting to re-evaluate and see how guys rank now based on what we know, and we also definitely don't know how they're going to turn out in their full NBA careers. In this first year we often just learn more about what we don't know, get a clearer sense of what unknown parts of their development will determine how high they fly (e.g. Cade's decision-making, Barnes' attacking in the half court, Mobley's shooting, etc).

But I agree that those redrafts often look wildly wrong a year or two later, and they're often used so fans of teams who had good rookie runs to gloat about that instead of bracing for the rockier road ahead (from their guy being 'rookie good' to being a great NBA player).

[jasonxxx102]

I mean, you could say this about a bunch of players...if this player improves this and that, he is All-NBA/MVP caliber.

but you really can't.

How many 7fters are there in the league who have DPOY - All-Defense upside. That's why I'm saying if he becomes an above average offensive weapon (I can lay out the groundwork on how he can do that) then you've really got something special.

As good as Cade looks or projects out to be I just don't see (best player in the league) type skills. If you could convince me that he's Luka, then maybe but the playmaking isn't there

You're skipping a lot of steps here and create an unequal comparison. For this comp to make any sense, you have to be holding Mobley to the standard of being a 'transcendent player' which means assuming that Mobley will not only be a very good defender--or even a top-20 one--but rather a defensive supernova, clear-cut game-changing multiple-DPOY guy. I'm all about dreaming big for rookies, but that's a big leap. As you said, he has that upside--but for him to become a 'transcendent' player he needs to become legitimately awesome on defense, one of if not the best defenders of the last decade. He has no chance otherwise, since we're all acknowledging he's unlikely to get better than 'hey, pretty good!' as a scorer.

Cade on the other hand doesn't need to develop 'best player in the league' skills to be better than Mobley. He just needs to become a more efficient, consistent, and sharper version of what he already basically is, and he needs Mobley to not become the very best version of himself.

Point is, they're both good prospects who have a chance of being top-5ish players, but that's extremely far from guaranteed for either player. Mobley isn't a couple of clicks from getting there, and Cade also has a lot of the foundation already laid for becoming that. I'd probably agree that Mobley has a slightly clearer path to becoming that, but it's still all going to depend on a bunch of unpredictable things. Lots of guys kind of plateau after strong rookie years, and lots of guys make huge leaps randomly in years 2,3, 4 or sometimes 5. We're not gonna know who's better until it's happening.

Well I'm basically saying Mobley IS a defensive game changer already.

I think that best case Mobley >>>>>> best case Cade AND I think there's a much clearer path for Mobley to achieve his best case.

[jasonxxx102]

There aren't any 7fters I can think of who have the agility of Mobley paired with the IQ. He's most dangerous as a guy who can float in the middle because his rotations are crisp and intentional. He's super quick off the floor as a leaper and he's got good hips to allow him to shuffle and twist to stay with guards and quicker wings.

He's the full defensive package. I think he deserves an all defense selection this season

[Dino-Might]

this one any better for your criteria? Oh, and Achiuwa often fumbles the ball...small hands. I thing Scottie expected Ach to block the defender a bit and was just going to dunk it himself.

Watch on YouTube

that's literally the same one i quoted...

I disagree that this was a useless no look from Barnes.

Look at where Siakam is as they pass mid-court - he is clearly behind Lavert. Barnes looking away from Siakam and towards Brooks in the middle of the floor draws Lavert's attention and before you know it Siakam is free for the dunk.

Of course WHEN Barnes passes it, Siakam is free. But Barnes looking at Brooks instead of Siakam coming past half court is what allowed him to be as open as he was.

[LoveMyRaps]

this one any better for your criteria? Oh, and Achiuwa often fumbles the ball...small hands. I thing Scottie expected Ach to block the defender a bit and was just going to dunk it himself.

Watch on YouTube

that's literally the same one i quoted...

I disagree that this was a useless no look from Barnes.

Look at where Siakam is as they pass mid-court - he is clearly behind Lavert. Barnes looking away from Siakam and towards Brooks in the middle of the floor draws Lavert's attention and before you know it Siakam is free for the dunk.

Of course WHEN Barnes passes it, Siakam is free. But Barnes looking at Brooks instead of Siakam coming past half court is what allowed him to be as open as he was.

Exactly.
LeVert stops right in his tracks and pivots towards Brooks the second Barnes looks at Brooks, this forces Siakam to blow right past his defender and Scottie is able to complete the sequence with a picture perfect pass down low for the easy flush.

If you think the no look pass was "useless" then you lack knowledge about the game OR you're just a straight up hater.

[Vampirate]

Barnes bad/dud night. Just scratching the surface.

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first of all with the first video, impressive strip. garland is super quick and has a tight handle but barnes clocked it the whole way.

that said, what on earth is barnes doing on the fast break in the first video? precious is clearly ahead for a wide open dunk and barnes opts to not pass, let the defense catch up, dump it off and then make precious pump fake, creating his own open look. it's like fast break 101 to pass ahead...

and i'm loving the trend of barnes doing completely unnecessary no-looks like in the second video. the player he passed to was clearly wide open for a dunk even if he stared them down. he also looked off to a complete non-threat, which is why none of the cavs players even flinched in that direction. this is an example of actual eye manipulation, even though it's not a no-look. he freezes the weakside defenders by looking at *actual* threats, which leaves the gap to zip a pass inside for stewart.

barnes is just scratching the surface, but that also highlights how far he has to go.

Barnes biggest weakness is still 3P and FT shooting atm.

Barnes, Cade, Mobley and Franz are all probably about equal in terms of BBIQ imo.

Mobley on the defensive end and Barnes, Cade and Franz on the offensive end.

As for the pass, he basically fooled Levert there as Levert thought he was going to pass to OG.

Look at 0:07 seconds in the video, Levert's head was turned and couldn't react fast enough to a sneaking Siakam who blew past him because of it.

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[LBJKB24MJ23]

this one any better for your criteria? Oh, and Achiuwa often fumbles the ball...small hands. I thing Scottie expected Ach to block the defender a bit and was just going to dunk it himself.

Watch on YouTube

that's literally the same one i quoted...

in this instance, the no look did throw off Siakam's defender. not a good example.. https://youtu.be/-9WNhS5dhks?t=8

[TheLand13]

I may be wrong and obviously have some bias, but I still think the majority of GMs would take Cade #1 if a re-draft were held.

If you look at his best month of games compared to any other rookie's, he has peaked the highest imo, with 22/7/7 on 47/33/83 shooting splits in the month of March. Even taking into account Kuminga and Jalen Green's absurd athleticism and physical tools and Mobley's great rookie year, I still honestly believe Cade has the highest ceiling in the draft based on his archetype and combination of physical tools + skillset and feel for the game.

I think it depends entirely on what your team is.

So for example, I think the Rockets and Pistons both would have preferred to have Cade when you consider what kind of rosters they have. Cade with those offensive weapons surrounding him on the Rockets would have been deadly, and we all know why Detroit would have wanted him.

But I'm gonna go an interesting route and say that the Cavaliers and Raptors more than likely would want their picks to be swapped. As much as I love Mobley and what he brings to the team so far, I can't deny that already having an elite rim protecting all star center in Jarrett Allen locked up for five years on a relatively cheap contract would allow us to get away with not having Mobley. They are going to be an insane duo as time goes on, especially if built around properly, but having Scottie Barnes on this team instead solves so many of the problems the Cavaliers have that Mobley doesn't fix. Scottie Barnes is the exact kind of player Cleveland needs right now and I'm sure they would love to have.

On the other side of things, the Raptors probably would have been much better off having Mobley than Barnes. He fills their biggest hole that they desperately need right now. This isn't an indictment on who the better rookie is, but rather, who is more valuable to these specific teams, and I think Mobley would just be more valuable for Toronto while Barnes would be more valuable for Cleveland. Alas, it makes no difference as both are greatly beneficial to their respective teams.

[JackTalkThai]

March is just about over and Cunningham averaged 22-7-7 this month. That’s big time production for an entire month. Tonight against Washington (loss) he put up 22-7-9 in 34 minutes.

Barnes (in March): 17-8-4
Mobley: 17-9-2

[vege]

Sorry for interrupt the discussion about how awesome Scott Barnes is (and he actually is awesome) but Cade just dropped a 22 9 and 7 on 50% from the field, which is nothing special, he has been doing that the entire month of march.

Now you guys can go back to talk about Barnes for the next 5 pages or so.

[nowayguy]

Cade looked incredible tonight.

Only mistake was trying to take that shot with 15 seconds left. He's just not hardwired to hit the big shots like Barnes.

[LBJKB24MJ23]

Sorry for interrupt the discussion about how awesome Scott Barnes is (and he actually is awesome) but Cade just dropped a 22 9 and 7 on 50% from the field, which is nothing special, he has been doing that the entire month of march.

Now you guys can go back to talk about Barnes for the next 5 pages or so.

na some of the Raptors fans obviously gonna be hacks when it comes to supporting Barnes.

its obvious the order is the following

Mobley
Cade
Barnes

for best rookie campaigns. Cade is definitely coming on strong but i think its Mobley's to lose now.

[breezypeezy]

Cade was +43 for his 35 minutes in the recent Atlanta game.
Pretty exciting to see your Rook having that kind of impact, only 4 other Pistons were over +10 in that game, they were between +10 and +20 in the 21 point win.
But with Cade being +43 in the same game it's demonstrably clear whose orchestrating for everyone around him.

His playmaking is going to be special, but he's got the full toolbox to become a complete basketball player in all facets, he's the antithesis of one dimensional.
That's why I love him for the Pistons.

Not taking anything from Barnes or Mobley, I'm happy for their fans. I don't care who wins RotY, I'm just really grateful we got Cade.

[srhcan]

this one any better for your criteria? Oh, and Achiuwa often fumbles the ball...small hands. I thing Scottie expected Ach to block the defender a bit and was just going to dunk it himself.

Watch on YouTube

that's literally the same one i quoted...

I disagree that this was a useless no look from Barnes.

Look at where Siakam is as they pass mid-court - he is clearly behind Lavert. Barnes looking away from Siakam and towards Brooks in the middle of the floor draws Lavert's attention and before you know it Siakam is free for the dunk.

Of course WHEN Barnes passes it, Siakam is free. But Barnes looking at Brooks instead of Siakam coming past half court is what allowed him to be as open as he was.

Great post. This is exactly what happen. Barnes looking at Brooks convince Lavert that Barnes will pass to Brooks so he slows down and divert his attention towards Brooks. This makes Siakam open and boom Barnes hit him. Amazing coordination between Barnes and Siakam.

[srhcan]

I may be wrong and obviously have some bias, but I still think the majority of GMs would take Cade #1 if a re-draft were held.

If you look at his best month of games compared to any other rookie's, he has peaked the highest imo, with 22/7/7 on 47/33/83 shooting splits in the month of March. Even taking into account Kuminga and Jalen Green's absurd athleticism and physical tools and Mobley's great rookie year, I still honestly believe Cade has the highest ceiling in the draft based on his archetype and combination of physical tools + skillset and feel for the game.

I think it depends entirely on what your team is.

So for example, I think the Rockets and Pistons both would have preferred to have Cade when you consider what kind of rosters they have. Cade with those offensive weapons surrounding him on the Rockets would have been deadly, and we all know why Detroit would have wanted him.

But I'm gonna go an interesting route and say that the Cavaliers and Raptors more than likely would want their picks to be swapped. As much as I love Mobley and what he brings to the team so far, I can't deny that already having an elite rim protecting all star center in Jarrett Allen locked up for five years on a relatively cheap contract would allow us to get away with not having Mobley. They are going to be an insane duo as time goes on, especially if built around properly, but having Scottie Barnes on this team instead solves so many of the problems the Cavaliers have that Mobley doesn't fix. Scottie Barnes is the exact kind of player Cleveland needs right now and I'm sure they would love to have.

On the other side of things, the Raptors probably would have been much better off having Mobley than Barnes. He fills their biggest hole that they desperately need right now. This isn't an indictment on who the better rookie is, but rather, who is more valuable to these specific teams, and I think Mobley would just be more valuable for Toronto while Barnes would be more valuable for Cleveland. Alas, it makes no difference as both are greatly beneficial to their respective teams.

Your arguments make sense. And Masai did try to trade for #3 with Cavs but Cavs said no. I dont know what was the offer Masai made but I think it was probably Boucher/Flynn + 4th pick for 3rd pick.

[vege]

Watch on YouTube

[nikster]

[url][/url]

but you really can't.

How many 7fters are there in the league who have DPOY - All-Defense upside. That's why I'm saying if he becomes an above average offensive weapon (I can lay out the groundwork on how he can do that) then you've really got something special.

As good as Cade looks or projects out to be I just don't see (best player in the league) type skills. If you could convince me that he's Luka, then maybe but the playmaking isn't there

You're skipping a lot of steps here and create an unequal comparison. For this comp to make any sense, you have to be holding Mobley to the standard of being a 'transcendent player' which means assuming that Mobley will not only be a very good defender--or even a top-20 one--but rather a defensive supernova, clear-cut game-changing multiple-DPOY guy. I'm all about dreaming big for rookies, but that's a big leap. As you said, he has that upside--but for him to become a 'transcendent' player he needs to become legitimately awesome on defense, one of if not the best defenders of the last decade. He has no chance otherwise, since we're all acknowledging he's unlikely to get better than 'hey, pretty good!' as a scorer.

Cade on the other hand doesn't need to develop 'best player in the league' skills to be better than Mobley. He just needs to become a more efficient, consistent, and sharper version of what he already basically is, and he needs Mobley to not become the very best version of himself.

Point is, they're both good prospects who have a chance of being top-5ish players, but that's extremely far from guaranteed for either player. Mobley isn't a couple of clicks from getting there, and Cade also has a lot of the foundation already laid for becoming that. I'd probably agree that Mobley has a slightly clearer path to becoming that, but it's still all going to depend on a bunch of unpredictable things. Lots of guys kind of plateau after strong rookie years, and lots of guys make huge leaps randomly in years 2,3, 4 or sometimes 5. We're not gonna know who's better until it's happening.

Well I'm basically saying Mobley IS a defensive game changer already.

I think that best case Mobley >>>>>> best case Cade AND I think there's a much clearer path for Mobley to achieve his best case.

Advanced stats don't really support it, especially when you look at their defense since Allens been out. Clearly has so many of the tools and has been extremely impactful, but I wouldn't put him on a tier with the best defenders in the league yet

[PD28]

Cade closing out the season in impressive fashion!

[Moses ShamMoses]

I'm 99% sure Pistons would still pick Cade in a redraft. That said, if Pistons got the #1 pick again, they'd trade it for Barnes or Mobley faster than you can blink. All three of these guys are #1 pick worthy. Hell there's even a pretty good chance they'd trade the #1 for other guys like Green and Wagner too.