Welcome Derrick White

[zoyathedestroya]

White's now assisted Pritchard on his threes 10 times. The only one who's done that more on the team is Tatum (13). Offball PP + onball White is a match made in second unit heaven.

He's also assisted Tatum 14 times so far, 10 times from 2-pt range. That's already double that of Richardson's assists (7 and 5) to Tatum during his stint here. For comparison's sake, Jaylen has assisted Tatum 19 times the entire season, 12 times from 2-pt area.

Nice stats.

His play making is so damn good.

That's obviously one of the biggest reasons we got him. Going back to what Udoka said in his very first press conference as coach, and how he wants to get the team playing better team basketball and finish higher in the league in assists.

Between the addition of white + smart being much more of a passer than a shooter this season + having 2 bigs who are very good passers (horford, rob) + tatum's play making (and brown's at times) are much improved, the ball is now really zipping around out there!

Celtics were 19th in Assist % prior to the trade deadline. They're 5th since.

That's largely because the bench moved up from 23rd in that category to 2nd after the trade deadline.

Going from Schroder/Richardson/Kanter to PP/White/Theis was a stroke of genius by POBO Brad.

[celticfan42487]

We have very little depth on this team, and White is fine. He doesn't create anything for anyone but he will be the guy who can finish off the hockey assist kind of like an Al Horford at shooting guard but worse than Horford at playmaking.

He also doesn't lose you anything on the defensive end but he's not going to carry a team.

We're still waiting for him to catch up to speed for shooting because everything about him changes dramatically based on he's shooting.

Is he's a 3 and D player then that's great. Is he a guy that even after forcing you to play 4 on 5 on offense still shoots endless bricks... then even with his defense and system passing he's probably hurting your team every minute he's out there.

That's why the last two games (yes they were blowouts and 0 pressure) might have been important for him. It's the first time in like a month he shot acceptably for an NBA guard. 40% and 50%. Lets see if a light switch will click.

I know it's hard to believe but he's actually a 33.5% career 3 point shooter. He's been able to at least hit them inconsistently in his career. And that's who we need, not the guy who goes 1-5, 0-3, 1-5, 0-5, 0-4, 2-3 (real game totals). The guy he has been has killed us. We need a guy who will hit some of those 3s and make the defense pay a little if they're going to completely not cover him from out there.

If he can't shoot like that then he better find a way to make an impact defensively like Smart does because you can't shoot like Smart and not be a stud defender on the level of a Smart and keep your job as a 20+mpg guard in the NBA. This league is cut throat and won't be doing charity for long.

If he doesn't get it together this year and still sucks to start next year he could see us replacing his minutes with someone we picked up in the offseason for MLE. We're not going to carry his ass out of charity for long we're here to win games and paid a near all-star amount of trade capital to get him to produce.

[Hal14]

We have very little depth on this team, and White is fine. He doesn't create anything for anyone but he will be the guy who can finish off the hockey assist kind of like an Al Horford at shooting guard but worse than Horford at playmaking.

He also doesn't lose you anything on the defensive end but he's not going to carry a team.

We're still waiting for him to catch up to speed for shooting because everything about him changes dramatically based on he's shooting.

Is he's a 3 and D player then that's great. Is he a guy that even after forcing you to play 4 on 5 on offense still shoots endless bricks... then even with his defense and system passing he's probably hurting your team every minute he's out there.

That's why the last two games (yes they were blowouts and 0 pressure) might have been important for him. It's the first time in like a month he shot acceptably for an NBA guard. 40% and 50%. Lets see if a light switch will click.

I know it's hard to believe but he's actually a 33.5% career 3 point shooter. He's been able to at least hit them inconsistently in his career. And that's who we need, not the guy who goes 1-5, 0-3, 1-5, 0-5, 0-4, 2-3 (real game totals). The guy he has been has killed us. We need a guy who will hit some of those 3s and make the defense pay a little if they're going to completely not cover him from out there.

If he can't shoot like that then he better find a way to make an impact defensively like Smart does because you can't shoot like Smart and not be a stud defender on the level of a Smart and keep your job as a 20+mpg guard in the NBA. This league is cut throat and won't be doing charity for long.

If he doesn't get it together this year and still sucks to start next year he could see us replacing his minutes with someone we picked up in the offseason for MLE. We're not going to carry his ass out of charity for long we're here to win games and paid a near all-star amount of trade capital to get him to produce.

Good lord. so many things wrong with this post. This hurts my head to read.

1) He's not a shooter. Stop expecting him to be one. We didn't get him for his shooting. We got him for his defense, his play making. How he constantly puts pressure on opposing defenses when he's on offense and he constantly puts pressure on opposing offenses when he's on defense. He makes his teammates better. Did you not see the assist stats that Zoya posted on this exact page? He's a veteran, he's a winner who makes winning plays. And yes, occasionally, he'll score on drives to the hoop or by hitting 3's here and there.

"he doesn't create anything for anyone" are you kidding me? c'mon man, watch the games and check out the stats that Zoya posted on this page and the previous page..

2) with that being said, like you said, 33.5% career 3 pt shooter (on a HUGE sample size). So far in boston, he's shooting 23% from 3 (on a TINY sample size). Obviously, he will regress to the mean and get closer to that 33%-34% range. In the meantime, he is still a highly valuable player for this team. If you can't see that, if you feel like there's nothing more to basketball than shooting, then I don't know what to tell ya..

[Bad-Thoma]

I feel like Derrick's going to be our new Marcus, a good portion of the board will love him because of his hustle, his playmaking, and his defense while a portion of the board will stick to "He CanT't ShooT teH ThREe He'S TrAsh!".

[celticfan42487]

We have very little depth on this team, and White is fine. He doesn't create anything for anyone but he will be the guy who can finish off the hockey assist kind of like an Al Horford at shooting guard but worse than Horford at playmaking.

He also doesn't lose you anything on the defensive end but he's not going to carry a team.

We're still waiting for him to catch up to speed for shooting because everything about him changes dramatically based on he's shooting.

Is he's a 3 and D player then that's great. Is he a guy that even after forcing you to play 4 on 5 on offense still shoots endless bricks... then even with his defense and system passing he's probably hurting your team every minute he's out there.

That's why the last two games (yes they were blowouts and 0 pressure) might have been important for him. It's the first time in like a month he shot acceptably for an NBA guard. 40% and 50%. Lets see if a light switch will click.

I know it's hard to believe but he's actually a 33.5% career 3 point shooter. He's been able to at least hit them inconsistently in his career. And that's who we need, not the guy who goes 1-5, 0-3, 1-5, 0-5, 0-4, 2-3 (real game totals). The guy he has been has killed us. We need a guy who will hit some of those 3s and make the defense pay a little if they're going to completely not cover him from out there.

If he can't shoot like that then he better find a way to make an impact defensively like Smart does because you can't shoot like Smart and not be a stud defender on the level of a Smart and keep your job as a 20+mpg guard in the NBA. This league is cut throat and won't be doing charity for long.

If he doesn't get it together this year and still sucks to start next year he could see us replacing his minutes with someone we picked up in the offseason for MLE. We're not going to carry his ass out of charity for long we're here to win games and paid a near all-star amount of trade capital to get him to produce.

Good lord. so many things wrong with this post. This hurts my head to read.

1) He's not a shooter. Stop expecting him to be one. We didn't get him for his shooting. We got him for his defense, his play making. How he constantly puts pressure on opposing defenses when he's on offense and he constantly puts pressure on opposing offenses when he's on defense. He makes his teammates better. Did you not see the assist stats that Zoya posted on this exact page? He's a veteran, he's a winner who makes winning plays. And yes, occasionally, he'll score on drives to the hoop or by hitting 3's here and there.

"he doesn't create anything for anyone" are you kidding me? c'mon man, watch the games and check out the stats that Zoya posted on this page and the previous page..

2) with that being said, like you said, 33.5% career 3 pt shooter (on a HUGE sample size). So far in boston, he's shooting 23% from 3 (on a TINY sample size). Obviously, he will regress to the mean and get closer to that 33%-34% range. In the meantime, he is still a highly valuable player for this team. If you can't see that, if you feel like there's nothing more to basketball than shooting, then I don't know what to tell ya..

If you feel like our post all star assists numbers are due to White only or even in large part due to White on the floor then I have nothing more to tell you.

We do need him to shoot. He needs to hit his career averages to be useful.

He's sucked a lot since he's been here.

You're just whining because you can't handle anything other than lollipop thoughts when it comes to Celtics players. He's massively underperformed here, we've paid a **** ton to get him, he needs to at least get back to his averages or we not only should, we will move on.

The clock is ticking on him, we have stars on this team and we have Smart. We're not going to waste their time if a 27 year old vet can't figure it.


So calm down and think before you post to see if you're literatlly saying anything I haven't already said but just not in the way someone would talk to a 4 year old knowing that reality is too much for them to handle. That might help your brain from hurting when it reads obvious truths.

[celticfan42487]

I feel like Derrick's going to be our new Marcus, a good portion of the board will love him because of his hustle, his playmaking, and his defense while a portion of the board will stick to "He CanT't ShooT teH ThREe He'S TrAsh!".

That would make some sense it'd be like the old Smart days because right now he's playing the way Smart did in his second season on offense and half as good as he was on defense (but to be fair that's still better than like 80% of NBA guards on defense).

White is way better than what he's provided us so far, this is about as bad as he's played in since he was a rookie in this league.

Maybe he's having a rough time coming off the bench and getting into the flow of the game with his shooting. That can be a hard adjustment and previously he has been a starter with the Spurs for a couple of seasons now.

Not that any of us should be walking on eggshells for the guy. We traded a first and a pick swap for him. At that price we need to expect better. I'm sure he's working on it.

Let's hope he finds his stride for what is a unique role for him on this team he's probably just not used too by the time the playoffs come around.

He'll never be as good as Smart is now, but he's way better than he has been and can be a lot like what Smart is playing now. Just kind of more a weird mixture of Avery Bradly and Smart on offense and defense.

He can provide so so so much more than what he's providing for us right now in this exact role. Some players just have a tough adjustment period to mid season trades and going to the bench from the starting position.

The last two times he was on a team that was top 10 in offensive rating like we are right now he scored 46-48% from the field 33-36% from 3 on very low volume from 3. But he knows how to pick his shots and not take shots that are out of his skill level. He knows how to play off of stars creating plays for him like Tatum. This is a 2 way player not a Justin Reed defensive specialist out there.

People are underselling him dramatically if they aren't just flabbergasted at how bad he's been so far with this much talent around him and the kind of fire everyone else is on around him shooting providing him endless outlets to pass to and open shots.

[Smart2Nesmith43]

I feel like Derrick's going to be our new Marcus, a good portion of the board will love him because of his hustle, his playmaking, and his defense while a portion of the board will stick to "He CanT't ShooT teH ThREe He'S TrAsh!".

Watch next year when he goes on a 20 game hot streak where he hits 38% of his threes and they'll come running here talking about the new Derrick White and how he's become such a good player.

[Half-Full]

I feel like Derrick's going to be our new Marcus, a good portion of the board will love him because of his hustle, his playmaking, and his defense while a portion of the board will stick to "He CanT't ShooT teH ThREe He'S TrAsh!".

Sadly, I think you're right. Three point shooting is not the only measure of what makes a good player, though. Derrick brings other valuable skills, as you have noted. And though he may not be a good three-point shooter, he DOES contribute on offense. He has an excellent floater, and he can take it to the hoop and finish. He is averaging 10 points/game, which is decent for a player who is not a starter. In addition, he is a very savvy player, who knows how to handle/move the ball. He has had a positive impact on our team to say the least.

[Hal14]

We have very little depth on this team, and White is fine. He doesn't create anything for anyone but he will be the guy who can finish off the hockey assist kind of like an Al Horford at shooting guard but worse than Horford at playmaking.

He also doesn't lose you anything on the defensive end but he's not going to carry a team.

We're still waiting for him to catch up to speed for shooting because everything about him changes dramatically based on he's shooting.

Is he's a 3 and D player then that's great. Is he a guy that even after forcing you to play 4 on 5 on offense still shoots endless bricks... then even with his defense and system passing he's probably hurting your team every minute he's out there.

That's why the last two games (yes they were blowouts and 0 pressure) might have been important for him. It's the first time in like a month he shot acceptably for an NBA guard. 40% and 50%. Lets see if a light switch will click.

I know it's hard to believe but he's actually a 33.5% career 3 point shooter. He's been able to at least hit them inconsistently in his career. And that's who we need, not the guy who goes 1-5, 0-3, 1-5, 0-5, 0-4, 2-3 (real game totals). The guy he has been has killed us. We need a guy who will hit some of those 3s and make the defense pay a little if they're going to completely not cover him from out there.

If he can't shoot like that then he better find a way to make an impact defensively like Smart does because you can't shoot like Smart and not be a stud defender on the level of a Smart and keep your job as a 20+mpg guard in the NBA. This league is cut throat and won't be doing charity for long.

If he doesn't get it together this year and still sucks to start next year he could see us replacing his minutes with someone we picked up in the offseason for MLE. We're not going to carry his ass out of charity for long we're here to win games and paid a near all-star amount of trade capital to get him to produce.

Good lord. so many things wrong with this post. This hurts my head to read.

1) He's not a shooter. Stop expecting him to be one. We didn't get him for his shooting. We got him for his defense, his play making. How he constantly puts pressure on opposing defenses when he's on offense and he constantly puts pressure on opposing offenses when he's on defense. He makes his teammates better. Did you not see the assist stats that Zoya posted on this exact page? He's a veteran, he's a winner who makes winning plays. And yes, occasionally, he'll score on drives to the hoop or by hitting 3's here and there.

"he doesn't create anything for anyone" are you kidding me? c'mon man, watch the games and check out the stats that Zoya posted on this page and the previous page..

2) with that being said, like you said, 33.5% career 3 pt shooter (on a HUGE sample size). So far in boston, he's shooting 23% from 3 (on a TINY sample size). Obviously, he will regress to the mean and get closer to that 33%-34% range. In the meantime, he is still a highly valuable player for this team. If you can't see that, if you feel like there's nothing more to basketball than shooting, then I don't know what to tell ya..

If you feel like our post all star assists numbers are due to White only or even in large part due to White on the floor then I have nothing more to tell you.

We do need him to shoot. He needs to hit his career averages to be useful.

He's sucked a lot since he's been here.

You're just whining because you can't handle anything other than lollipop thoughts when it comes to Celtics players. He's massively underperformed here, we've paid a **** ton to get him, he needs to at least get back to his averages or we not only should, we will move on.

The clock is ticking on him, we have stars on this team and we have Smart. We're not going to waste their time if a 27 year old vet can't figure it.


So calm down and think before you post to see if you're literatlly saying anything I haven't already said but just not in the way someone would talk to a 4 year old knowing that reality is too much for them to handle. That might help your brain from hurting when it reads obvious truths.

Us jumping from 19th in assist rate to 5th in the league in assist rate since the trade deadline can absolutely be attributed to White coming here - not entirely but it's a significant factor.

Apparently you missed the other stats Zoya posted..

"White's now assisted Pritchard on his threes 10 times. The only one who's done that more on the team is Tatum (13). Offball PP + onball White is a match made in second unit heaven.

He's also assisted Tatum 14 times so far, 10 times from 2-pt range. That's already double that of Richardson's assists (7 and 5) to Tatum during his stint here. For comparison's sake, Jaylen has assisted Tatum 19 times the entire season, 12 times from 2-pt area."

Oh and we didn't give up very much to get him. A 1st round pick? So what? As of now, that'd be the 24th pick in the draft. Outside of the top 10-12 or so picks, this year's draft is pretty weak. We're trying to win a championship here. Do you really think some young kid picked late in the 1st round is gonna put us over the top? Brad has traded our 1st round pick 2 yrs in a row now. Clearly he sees those mid to late 1st round picks as trade chips to acquire good veterans to put us in a better spot to contend.

A late 1st round pick and a pick swap is not a high price at all to pay for a quality veteran player who still has 3.5 years left on his contract.

So basically, according to you, if a guy is shooting below his career average from 3 he is "massively underperforming" and is "killing the team" lol ok buddy so I guess everyone on the team other than Grant and Pritchard are "massively underperforming" and are "killing the team"

Gosh, with all 5 starters and 13/15 players on the team "massively underperforming" and "killing the team" it's so strange that we're the hottest team in the NBA and only a game out of 1st place in the east lol

Were you posting this same crap when Tatum was in a huge shooting slump earlier in the season? What about Brown? Horford? Nesmith? Smart? Pritchard? They've all had shooting slumps this season. Heck, even Richardson and Schroder had stretches where they struggled shooting - Grant has too. And none of them got traded in the middle of the season to a new team, had to learn a whole new system, new sets, new defensive schemes, adjust to new teammates, new coaching staff. None of them had to move their family across the country in the middle of the season - with a wife who's pregnant..

Lastly, if white is "killing the team" so bad, why do we have the best net rating in the league since he got here?

[Half-Full]

So calm down and think before you post to see if you're literatlly saying anything I haven't already said but just not in the way someone would talk to a 4 year old knowing that reality is too much for them to handle. That might help your brain from hurting when it reads obvious truths.

"So calm down and think before you post"... good advice. Clearly not followed in this case.

[celticfan42487]

So calm down and think before you post to see if you're literatlly saying anything I haven't already said but just not in the way someone would talk to a 4 year old knowing that reality is too much for them to handle. That might help your brain from hurting when it reads obvious truths.

"So calm down and think before you post"... good advice. Clearly not followed in this case.

I feel fully comfortable in my response here to a post that "made their head hurt" and yet they can't refute any of it on a basketball basis and in an effort for absurdity invented the straw man that me saying a player having by far the literal WORST percentages of his career and wasn't a great shooter beforehand by reputation needs to get his averages back up to his career average is somehow the same as... oNlY ShOtTinG mAtTeRs

Like it's clear without any basketball reference and representing my position in bad faith the goal there was nothing more than to tone police because it wasn't said with enough reverence for the name on the back of the shirt. To which I don't care because I'm only a fan of the franchise and don't jump up and down when they're having a career worst performance at the moment.

Just as I call out every player when they're performing below average (and already cited reasons why coming off the bench is a tough transition and why White in a top 10 offense will likely revert to his best seasons of his career not just merely career averages, this isn't a D and maybe offense player, this is a legit 2 way guy when he turns it around).

Don't get me wrong though it is a public site so I get tone policing for slurs or calling people on this board not real fans when we're all obviously fanatics to be posting on this site with regularity so that's an insult. But if people can't handle my tone then I fully encourage them to add me to the ignore list as there's plenty of posters on here that are fine with it and I have great conversations with.

I certainly won't feel like I'm missing anything in my life by not having ridicule in the attempt to tone police.

[Feed Your Head]

White is a lot more than “a guy who won’t lose you anything” on the defensive end. Every advanced stat has him as one of the best defensive guards in the league.

The three point shot thing doesn’t matter, because everyone knows he’s a much better shooter from three than he’s shown here. It’s a cold streak, eventually it will correct, as it almost always does.

He has done everything at a high level except shoot, and everyone knows that will come around, considering the shots he’s taking are great looks. I care much more about everything else, as opposed to one extra shot going in per game.

[celticfan42487]

White is a lot more than “a guy who won’t lose you anything” on the defensive end. Every advanced stat has him as one of the best defensive guards in the league.

The three point shot thing doesn’t matter, because everyone knows he’s a much better shooter from three than he’s shown here. It’s a cold streak, eventually it will correct, as it almost always does.

He has done everything at a high level except shoot, and everyone knows that will come around, considering the shots he’s taking are great looks. I care much more about everything else, as opposed to one extra shot going in per game.

His value over replacement level player in Boston has been 0.0, which is also a career worst for him as a player in the NBA.

So something must matter, or he must be dramatically underperforming his time here when generally that range is between 0.9-1.4 for him in his career.

So surely something about his performance matters, somehow that's a dramatic underperformance for him the minute he put on a Celtics shirt. You can claim it to be offense or defense, but you don't get 0.0 VORP for no reason when typically you're 0.9-1.4 for your career since your second season in the league (as a rookie he was 0.2 which was still better than his Boston VORP performance so far).

Me saying he needs to get back up to his career averages to be a positive player or he would be replaced in the off season isn't a dramatic statement here. He's not like one of the guys we signed off the street as a post trade addition that you would expect to be close to the average level for a replacement level player in the league.

And yeah I expect him to turn it around, but I would argue he wouldn't just get to his career average when he does. I'd argue looking closer at his performance for the last 2 times he was on a team surrounded by players that were a top 10 in offense (and let's be frank here in his time here in Boston Tatum has go super nova and we've been far better than just top 10 so it's been extremely easy street for a role player like him out there) he hasn't shot merely career average when he's on easy street like he is with this team and those Spurs teams, he's shot FAR better than that. He picks his spots, we should be expecting around 46% from the floor and 33% from 3 overall because he knows how to pick his spots and doesn't play above his skill level on a talented team with the defensive attention completely off him.

But so far, shooting his career worse is what I would suspect is what's killing him. Putting up career worst shooting numbers, career worse VORP numbers, career worst assist percentages, career worst offensive box plus minus, career worst PER, ect ect ect.

We all know he's better than this as a player, this is a 2 way player kind of in the mold of an Avery Bradley (but better playmaking skills and a little worse 3 point shooting). But right now, what he's shown for this team... he isn't. And if this is something he can't turn around well then... you don't earn through poor play a 0.0 VORP on a team that might very well end up with the best record in the East, let alone one who's star has lifted this team to putting up one of the best overall numbers in the league during the time he's been playing here, and not likely be replaced by a player looking to jump ship in the summer for the MLE and take over your minutes.

If we perform in the playoffs anywhere near what we're doing now we're going to be a destination location for players looking to make their mark on a winning team. And if he doesn't somehow stop having a career worst performance because he can't figure out how to work with this team, then we'll get people that will who are desperate to play with Tatum and make it deep in the playoffs living off the gravity Tatum's presence on the floor creates. Right or wrong Stevens trading multiple picks is a clear sign he's going all in on the team now and not caring about down the road. He's not going to wait around or fall into any kind of sunk cost fallacy if a player simple fails to live up to expectations and he can get better options for his stars.

Again in all probability this has to turn around, no one has this much bad luck in a trade. But until it does it's fair to say White is starting a clock on himself on this team to keep his minutes. Pritchard, Grant, Theis all would love to get on the court more now and next year we'll have another player desperate for minutes and potentially in the mold of a Tyus Jones.

But like I said let's hope his last 2 games were the breakout he needed to get back to where he needs to be on a team like this. He shot 40% from the floor and 50% in the last two games. Defensively I don't think anyone has any real complaints. Hopefully seeing the ball go through the hoop now is what starts him back on the path. We need him to perform soon so we get the guy we need in the playoffs and the one we traded for. And we should expect that's who we'll get, if not that's on White. Role change or not it isn't like he's in a completely foreign system that is asking him to do more than he's capable of.

[BK_2020]

VORP as used by BBref is based on BPM, a worthless box score compilation stat. It's not completely meaningless but there's no reason to use it when other more advanced metrics are available, which by the way rate Derrick White very highly.

[celticfan42487]

VORP as used by BBref is based on BPM, a worthless box score compilation stat. It's not completely meaningless but there's no reason to use it when other more advanced metrics are available, which by the way rate Derrick White very highly.

"But so far, shooting his career worse is what I would suspect is what's killing him. Putting up career worst shooting numbers, career worse VORP numbers, career worst assist percentages, career worst offensive box plus minus, career worst PER, ect ect ect."

I guess pick and choose which one you want to credit or discredit. That's a lot of smoke, doesn't mean there's fire and you don't have to believe there is but it's a lot of smoke.

[Feed Your Head]

VORP as used by BBref is based on BPM, a worthless box score compilation stat. It's not completely meaningless but there's no reason to use it when other more advanced metrics are available, which by the way rate Derrick White very highly.

"But so far, shooting his career worse is what I would suspect is what's killing him. Putting up career worst shooting numbers, career worse VORP numbers, career worst assist percentages, career worst offensive box plus minus, career worst PER, ect ect ect."

I guess pick and choose which one you want to credit or discredit. That's a lot of smoke, doesn't mean there's fire and you don't have to believe there is but it's a lot of smoke.

The career worst assist percentage is because we aren’t asking him to facilitate. He’s been a secondary playmaker, and he’s been very good at it

VORP sucks so badly that it didn’t even place in a nba execs ranking of advanced stats, PER finished 3rd worst. BPM is useful as a box score stat, but of course White’s will rank lower because he’s been in a shooting slump since being here. Using any advanced stat over this short a sample is beyond useless, which is why most of them aren’t even released until 10-20 games into the season.

It’s just too short of a sample to make any judgements on him as a player, other than what was already known about him based on his whole career.

https://hoopshype.com/lists/advanced-stats-nba-real-plus-minus-rapm-win-shares-analytics/

[celticfan42487]

VORP as used by BBref is based on BPM, a worthless box score compilation stat. It's not completely meaningless but there's no reason to use it when other more advanced metrics are available, which by the way rate Derrick White very highly.

"But so far, shooting his career worse is what I would suspect is what's killing him. Putting up career worst shooting numbers, career worse VORP numbers, career worst assist percentages, career worst offensive box plus minus, career worst PER, ect ect ect."

I guess pick and choose which one you want to credit or discredit. That's a lot of smoke, doesn't mean there's fire and you don't have to believe there is but it's a lot of smoke.

The career worst assist percentage is because we aren’t asking him to facilitate. He’s been a secondary playmaker, and he’s been very good at it

VORP sucks so badly that it didn’t even place in a nba execs ranking of advanced stats, PER finished 3rd worst. BPM is useful as a box score stat, but of course White’s will rank lower because he’s been in a shooting slump since being here. Using any advanced stat over this short a sample is beyond useless, which is why most of them aren’t even released until 10-20 games into the season.

It’s just too short of a sample to make any judgements on him as a player, other than what was already known about him based on his whole career.

https://hoopshype.com/lists/advanced-stats-nba-real-plus-minus-rapm-win-shares-analytics/

I guess I started using advanced stats for his time here because you said "Every advanced stat has him as one of the best defensive guards in the league."

So I shared other advanced stats for what he's been doing for this team since he got here that seems like you know the worst he's ever played.

This is only his stats as a Celtics, which unless you're using some other measure this is not his 3rd worst for PER. This is his worst performance ever there. I did make a mistake with asst% there though this is his 3rd worst of his career. He was worse in 2020 and if you want to count his rookie year. I'll assume you meant Asst% though and my mistake ended up causing a typo on your end lol.



I think also why I'm trying to convey is this isn't just a defensive player, he's not Kendrick Perkins. He's not just a sometimes hit a shot and that's great Thybull kinda player. When White is on his offense is a significant part of his game. Looking at those career PERs you notice it's at 15 or above. So he's always an average or ABOVE average offensive player in the league.

I think too many people are associating him as a younger Marcus Smart when he's more an Avery Bradley. Offense is a big part of his game. He's a legit 2 way player that should be destroying teams for playing 4 on 5 and leaving him wide open. Or at least has before we traded for him.

[Half-Full]

So calm down and think before you post to see if you're literatlly saying anything I haven't already said but just not in the way someone would talk to a 4 year old knowing that reality is too much for them to handle. That might help your brain from hurting when it reads obvious truths.

"So calm down and think before you post"... good advice. Clearly not followed in this case.

I feel fully comfortable in my response here to a post that "made their head hurt" and yet they can't refute any of it on a basketball basis and in an effort for absurdity invented the straw man that me saying a player having by far the literal WORST percentages of his career and wasn't a great shooter beforehand by reputation needs to get his averages back up to his career average is somehow the same as... oNlY ShOtTinG mAtTeRs

Like it's clear without any basketball reference and representing my position in bad faith the goal there was nothing more than to tone police because it wasn't said with enough reverence for the name on the back of the shirt. To which I don't care because I'm only a fan of the franchise and don't jump up and down when they're having a career worst performance at the moment.

Just as I call out every player when they're performing below average (and already cited reasons why coming off the bench is a tough transition and why White in a top 10 offense will likely revert to his best seasons of his career not just merely career averages, this isn't a D and maybe offense player, this is a legit 2 way guy when he turns it around).

Don't get me wrong though it is a public site so I get tone policing for slurs or calling people on this board not real fans when we're all obviously fanatics to be posting on this site with regularity so that's an insult. But if people can't handle my tone then I fully encourage them to add me to the ignore list as there's plenty of posters on here that are fine with it and I have great conversations with.

I certainly won't feel like I'm missing anything in my life by not having ridicule in the attempt to tone police.

I'll see your tone, and raise it. That's what I'm getting. All the points you are making could be made without resorting to "tone." While your original post did not make my head hurt, I did think it was an unduly harsh take. Your further explanation did not help. You suggested that Derrick White's poor shooting would force the Celtics to play 4 on 5 on offense, and that even with his defense and system passing, he would be hurting the team every minute he is on the court. Of course, everyone is entitled to their opinion, but I think Derrick's contributions have in no way hurt the team. Quite the opposite. While he is not a shooter, he does have an offensive game. He's got a great floater, and he gets to the hoop and finishes (or gets to the free throw line where he is a career 83%). He's averaged 10 points/game for us over 18 games, and that is pretty decent for someone who is not a starter. It is also close to his career average (11.5 pts/game).

[Feed Your Head]

"But so far, shooting his career worse is what I would suspect is what's killing him. Putting up career worst shooting numbers, career worse VORP numbers, career worst assist percentages, career worst offensive box plus minus, career worst PER, ect ect ect."

I guess pick and choose which one you want to credit or discredit. That's a lot of smoke, doesn't mean there's fire and you don't have to believe there is but it's a lot of smoke.

The career worst assist percentage is because we aren’t asking him to facilitate. He’s been a secondary playmaker, and he’s been very good at it

VORP sucks so badly that it didn’t even place in a nba execs ranking of advanced stats, PER finished 3rd worst. BPM is useful as a box score stat, but of course White’s will rank lower because he’s been in a shooting slump since being here. Using any advanced stat over this short a sample is beyond useless, which is why most of them aren’t even released until 10-20 games into the season.

It’s just too short of a sample to make any judgements on him as a player, other than what was already known about him based on his whole career.

https://hoopshype.com/lists/advanced-stats-nba-real-plus-minus-rapm-win-shares-analytics/

I guess I started using advanced stats for his time here because you said "Every advanced stat has him as one of the best defensive guards in the league."

So I shared other advanced stats for what he's been doing for this team since he got here that seems like you know the worst he's ever played.

This is only his stats as a Celtics, which unless you're using some other measure this is not his 3rd worst for PER. This is his worst performance ever there. I did make a mistake with asst% there though this is his 3rd worst of his career. He was worse in 2020 and if you want to count his rookie year. I'll assume you meant Asst% though and my mistake ended up causing a typo on your end lol.



I think also why I'm trying to convey is this isn't just a defensive player, he's not Kendrick Perkins. He's not just a sometimes hit a shot and that's great Thybull kinda player. When White is on his offense is a significant part of his game. Looking at those career PERs you notice it's at 15 or above. So he's always an average or ABOVE average offensive player in the league.

I think too many people are associating him as a younger Marcus Smart when he's more an Avery Bradley. Offense is a big part of his game. He's a legit 2 way player that should be destroying teams for playing 4 on 5 and leaving him wide open. Or at least has before we traded for him.

I was saying PER is ranked as the 3rd worst advanced stat, in that link I posted.

He’s taking shots he’s going to eventually going to hit, I just take more from how he plays than how he’s shooting, as of now.

[jirrit]

We have very little depth on this team, and White is fine. He doesn't create anything for anyone but he will be the guy who can finish off the hockey assist kind of like an Al Horford at shooting guard but worse than Horford at playmaking.

He also doesn't lose you anything on the defensive end but he's not going to carry a team.

We're still waiting for him to catch up to speed for shooting because everything about him changes dramatically based on he's shooting.

Is he's a 3 and D player then that's great. Is he a guy that even after forcing you to play 4 on 5 on offense still shoots endless bricks... then even with his defense and system passing he's probably hurting your team every minute he's out there.

That's why the last two games (yes they were blowouts and 0 pressure) might have been important for him. It's the first time in like a month he shot acceptably for an NBA guard. 40% and 50%. Lets see if a light switch will click.

I know it's hard to believe but he's actually a 33.5% career 3 point shooter. He's been able to at least hit them inconsistently in his career. And that's who we need, not the guy who goes 1-5, 0-3, 1-5, 0-5, 0-4, 2-3 (real game totals). The guy he has been has killed us. We need a guy who will hit some of those 3s and make the defense pay a little if they're going to completely not cover him from out there.

If he can't shoot like that then he better find a way to make an impact defensively like Smart does because you can't shoot like Smart and not be a stud defender on the level of a Smart and keep your job as a 20+mpg guard in the NBA. This league is cut throat and won't be doing charity for long.

If he doesn't get it together this year and still sucks to start next year he could see us replacing his minutes with someone we picked up in the offseason for MLE. We're not going to carry his ass out of charity for long we're here to win games and paid a near all-star amount of trade capital to get him to produce.

Good lord. so many things wrong with this post. This hurts my head to read.

1) He's not a shooter. Stop expecting him to be one. We didn't get him for his shooting. We got him for his defense, his play making. How he constantly puts pressure on opposing defenses when he's on offense and he constantly puts pressure on opposing offenses when he's on defense. He makes his teammates better. Did you not see the assist stats that Zoya posted on this exact page? He's a veteran, he's a winner who makes winning plays. And yes, occasionally, he'll score on drives to the hoop or by hitting 3's here and there.

"he doesn't create anything for anyone" are you kidding me? c'mon man, watch the games and check out the stats that Zoya posted on this page and the previous page..

2) with that being said, like you said, 33.5% career 3 pt shooter (on a HUGE sample size). So far in boston, he's shooting 23% from 3 (on a TINY sample size). Obviously, he will regress to the mean and get closer to that 33%-34% range. In the meantime, he is still a highly valuable player for this team. If you can't see that, if you feel like there's nothing more to basketball than shooting, then I don't know what to tell ya..

If you feel like our post all star assists numbers are due to White only or even in large part due to White on the floor then I have nothing more to tell you.

We do need him to shoot. He needs to hit his career averages to be useful.

He's sucked a lot since he's been here.

You're just whining because you can't handle anything other than lollipop thoughts when it comes to Celtics players. He's massively underperformed here, we've paid a **** ton to get him, he needs to at least get back to his averages or we not only should, we will move on.

The clock is ticking on him, we have stars on this team and we have Smart. We're not going to waste their time if a 27 year old vet can't figure it.


So calm down and think before you post to see if you're literatlly saying anything I haven't already said but just not in the way someone would talk to a 4 year old knowing that reality is too much for them to handle. That might help your brain from hurting when it reads obvious truths.

Literally the only thing he’s doing wrong is not making his shots. And offcourse thats a very important skill but he’s a huge addition at ALL the other things. He’s the glue on offense, defense, bench etc. I really don’t know what you are seeing but the product we’re currently delivering is also due to his presence in the total picture of our team.