2021-2022 Regular Season Game 76: Orlando Magic (20-55) at Cleveland Cavaliers (41-33) - 3/28/22 at 7pm ET

[Magic_Kingdom]

It literally started just last year though...

After the trade deadline...

That's the sad thing. We were actually trying to win for all those years.

We tried it 'their' way unsuccessfully for, at least, half a decade... and now complain about one year of trying the other way.

I would argue the only sincere effort to win in the past decade was when Clifford was the coach. Hennigan spent at least 3 years playing young, depleted lineups while hoping for lottery luck after trading Dwight. Is that not tanking? They won 20, 23, and 25 games, and he got the #2 pick (Oladipo), #4 (Gordon), and #5 (Hezonja). They were one of the worst teams in the league during that stretch. He didn't hold out healthy players the way Weltman does, but they were pretty awful anyway, as evidenced by the 2, 4 and 5 picks. And, teams with better records than the Magic got top-3 picks during that period, just like last season. "Tanking properly" can't be defined by whether your ping-pong ball pops up. We tanked harder than Cleveland and Toronto last season, and they got top-4 picks and we didn't. OKC tanked harder than us, and got the #6 pick.

The ultimate question is this: is the harm you do to your team and your young players' development by intentionally losing worth the increased odds of getting a higher pick, when your odds under the new system are not significantly better than teams below you? We're talking percentage points. So is it worth Franz, WCJ and Fultz sitting on the bench in a tie game on the road last night instead of gaining late-game experience and trying to close out a road opponent with a winning record? Did they develop by watching Iggy, Dowtin and Schofield fumble the game away? Did the team get better?

There is very little (if any) evidence that intentionally losing in this form -- where the coach is trying to secure losses in-game -- is a successful method for building a winning team.

[Magic_Kingdom]

I'm not pro tank but at this point in the season we're so far down the standing why not tank in order to better our draft position? It wasn't even a home game.

Because there is no additional draft lotto balls to "earn". The ceiling has been reached. If you are talking about "worst case", this means the Magic is drafting 5, 6, vs. 7 by missing out on lotto luck.
Well: I would rather the Magic fluke some wins than tank to rise from 7 to 6 in the draft, for example.

..

Are you suggesting that 5 and 7 have the same value? You cannot be serious.

In most drafts they have similar value. As Magic fans we are still traumatized by the 2018 draft when we watched Trae Young get picked at #5 and then watched our front office take Bamba at #6. But that sort of clear delineation does not happen in most drafts. If you re-drafted 2018, Young doesn't fall to 5, he's a top-3 pick. The Hawks were lucky to land him at 5 because the Kings and Grizzlies passed on him.

If you are tanking, you are presumably doing it for a superstar. Someone to change the trajectory of the team. So if you tank and miss out on a top-4 pick, and your draft order is now only relevant to a worst-case scenario, then the tank has already been a failure. Losing games intentionally is a drastic measure. You don't emasculate yourself and hamstring player development to ensure you get the #6 pick over the #7 pick.

[drsd]

The lottery has not worked out for us in 12 years. You’d think we’d have a co-strategy to help further things along. There has been other teams who have chosen later in the draft and have done better then us. There have teams who didn’t tank and did well. We’re just bad at all of the above.

I just realized that Mario Hezonja and Jalen Suggs were both 5th picks.

[thelead]

After the trade deadline...

That's the sad thing. We were actually trying to win for all those years.

We tried it 'their' way unsuccessfully for, at least, half a decade... and now complain about one year of trying the other way.

I would argue the only sincere effort to win in the past decade was when Clifford was the coach. Hennigan spent at least 3 years playing young, depleted lineups while hoping for lottery luck after trading Dwight. Is that not tanking? They won 20, 23, and 25 games, and he got the #2 pick (Oladipo), #4 (Gordon), and #5 (Hezonja). They were one of the worst teams in the league during that stretch. He didn't hold out healthy players the way Weltman does, but they were pretty awful anyway, as evidenced by the 2, 4 and 5 picks. And, teams with better records than the Magic got top-3 picks during that period, just like last season. "Tanking properly" can't be defined by whether your ping-pong ball pops up. We tanked harder than Cleveland and Toronto last season, and they got top-4 picks and we didn't. OKC tanked harder than us, and got the #6 pick.

The ultimate question is this: is the harm you do to your team and your young players' development by intentionally losing worth the increased odds of getting a higher pick, when your odds under the new system are not significantly better than teams below you? We're talking percentage points. So is it worth Franz, WCJ and Fultz sitting on the bench in a tie game on the road last night instead of gaining late-game experience and trying to close out a road opponent with a winning record? Did they develop by watching Iggy, Dowtin and Schofield fumble the game away? Did the team get better?

There is very little (if any) evidence that intentionally losing in this form -- where the coach is trying to secure losses in-game -- is a successful method for building a winning team.

1. We were 35-47 in 2015/2016. We did not tank that year... then we traded our youth for Ibaka the summer of 2016. We haven't been tanking since, at least, 2014/2015. We just sucked. Let's be accurate in our discussion.

2. There is very little (if any) evidence that playing Franz and WCJ an additional 6-10 minutes in a game against bench players (last night due to injuries) or g-league players (due to the other teams tanking) late in the season will do anything for their development. If you truly believe that, we can send them to the g-league and get them even more minutes so that they become superstars with all the minutes they'll get to 'develop.

3. It's VERY late in the season. It's over. There is NOTHING to be gain by pointless wins. The only point I will concede is that the odds are much worse than they used to be for tanking teams. That sucks. It also sucks that this draft is weak... but all that said, you still always want to give yourself the best shot at talent and this team needs as much of it as possible.

4. This one is a minor point but we even saw it last night... you know what can limit injuries? Not playing a ton. I honestly like giving WCJ, Fultz, and Franz rest down the stretch to help them make it to next season without a serious injury. Is it foolproof? No but limiting minutes absolutely helps.

[OrlChamps2030]

The lottery has not worked out for us in 12 years. You’d think we’d have a co-strategy to help further things along. There has been other teams who have chosen later in the draft and have done better then us. There have teams who didn’t tank and did well. We’re just bad at all of the above.

I just realized that Mario Hezonja and Jalen Suggs were both 5th picks.

This graphic is actually a bit depressing

This organization has never accomplished anything or had a successful era without being built around the #1 pick

[Bergmaniac]

Dowtin has proven to be a great tank commander so far. He needs to get a lot more minutes.

Our top 3 players in usage rate are Fultz, Suggs and Cole. Their TS% is 50.5, 45.6 and 52.1 respectively. Ouch. In fact, all of our guards except Harris have had horrendous efficiency this season. Hampton somehow manages to have a horrendous 48.7 TS% despite shooting a respectable 36.2% from 3 on a decent volume. But that's what happens when you are supposed to be an athletic slasher but you shoot barely over 50% at the rim.

[thelead]

Dowtin has proven to be a great tank commander so far. He needs to get a lot more minutes.

Our top 3 players in usage rate are Fultz, Suggs and Cole. Their TS% is 50.5, 45.6 and 52.1 respectively. Ouch. In fact, all of our guards except Harris have had horrendous efficiency this season. Hampton somehow manages to have a horrendous 48.7 TS% despite shooting a respectable 36.2% from 3 on a decent volume. But that's what happens when you are supposed to be an athletic slasher but you shoot barely over 50% at the rim.

Those TS% are depressing. We need a backcourt overhaul. I wonder if we can keep Gary too if we want to actually win games next year.

[The Effect]

I swear people are never happy
We win, people cry about draft position
We tank, people cry about losing

Winning games like this are beyond pointless at this stage of the season. Does losing gaurantee us the top pick, no, but when youre this bad this close to the end of the season, you have to put yourself in the best position to get the best players. OKC is blatantly tanking again, same with detroit, (houston is just that bad), so guess what, you have to do what you have to do.

The lottery has not worked out for us in 12 years. You’d think we’d have a co-strategy to help further things along. There has been other teams who have chosen later in the draft and have done better then us. There have teams who didn’t tank and did well. We’re just bad at all of the above.

And now we have a FO and ownership thats actually commited to this strategy
People seem to forget that this is only the 2nd year of the rebuild.
When hennigan did it, he was forced to speed up the rebuild and give up up some of the decision making to the coaches which is why we lost players like Olapido, Tobias, Sabonis for virtually nothing. If we would of maintained that strategy, this team could of been a contender by now with those 3, AG, Vuc, evan and a few draft picks down the line. but management wasnt willing to wait, now they seem to be ok with it

I get it, we have been unlucky with the lotto, and seemingly miss out on the top players by 1 pick, but that wont always be the case, and we saw that last year. Yeah we missed out on the top 4, but still got our guy in Suggs (no matter what people think about him, he was projected to be a superstar and still can be with improved shooting) and hit an absolute grand slam with Franz, so things ARE turning around.

Add a top pick to this current team, with the continuing development of guys like Franz, suggs, wc, cole, and fultz and maybe even the return of Isaac (doubtful but possible), and most importantly, a good vet that can take charge (think of what Jimmy buckets did for the heats young core) this team can compete. No i dont know who that vet is, if i did, i wouldnt be on a message board, id be working for a team


BUT, let me ask you, what would a win yesterday do for this team in the long run? Do you really think leaving the starters in there to try and win the game would of helped this team long term? Do you think these guys are going to be in the locker room thinking to themselves, "man if we would of only beaten the cavs to get to 21 wins, we would of turned things around!". This is a wasted season, and no matter what our luck has been in the lotto, you have to do everything possible to give yourself the best odds of getting a top pick, not cry about a meaningless victory in the 76th game of a 20 win season

[ORLMagicGirl15]

You know, the Suns had pointless wins in the bubble. I don’t know what type of development they needed that season for them to become the team they are now but I sure do wish our team would’ve found something like that. Look, some are hoping that we get the top 3 so that we can get a great player but there is something off with this team. There is an attitude (maybe characteristic is a better word) we seem to be missing. Like an actual alpha leader that has that mentality to win.

[pepe1991]

Blatant tanking will always rub big chunk of fans in wrong way, even if it's "best long term".

For start ,it goes against sportsmanship, second, it's still based on luck.

Also calling tanking strategy is silly. Strategy would be something that is in play that you have full control of.

Probably bigger question mark is will Magic be that much better next year than they are this year ? They should be bit better but still not by much. So cycle ot tanking will probably continue after next year as well.

One thing here repeated a lot is notion that Magic didn't tank in past.
2012-13 Magic had worst record in nba.
2013-14 Magic had third worst record.
2014-15 Magic had 4th worst record.
2016-17 Magic had 5th worst record.
2017-18 Magic had 4th worst record.
2020-21 Magic had 3rd worst record.

So 6 times in 10 years Magic had top 5 worst record, including 3 times - top 3 worst record. This will be 7th time in 11 years where Magic will have top 4 worst record and 4th time in same amount of years where Magic will have top 3 record.

Maybe it's not about tanking, it's about inaiblity to choose and develop players once you draft them ? Since almost every year allstar level of player was selected AFTER Magic were on clock?

For example 2014, Magic had two top 12 picks, selected Gordon and Payton. Passed on Randle and Lavine. ( hell... long streach, Jokic)
2015- Hezonja / passed on Booker
2017 Isaac / Adebayo - Mitchell
2018 Bamba / both Bridges, Porter, SGA

[The Effect]

You know, the Suns had pointless wins in the bubble. I don’t know what type of development they needed that season for them to become the team they are now but I sure do wish our team would’ve found something like that. Look, some are hoping that we get the top 3 so that we can get a great player but there is something off with this team. There is an attitude (maybe characteristic is a better word) we seem to be missing. Like an actual alpha leader that has that mentality to win.

The Bubble.......as in they were fighting for a playoff spot...........as in they had something to play for.........NOT THE SAME THING AS TRYING TO WIN THE 76TH GAME OF A 20 WIN SEASON

Also, the suns added the maybe the best pure point guard of this generation the next offseason, that is a much bigger reason for them making the leap to contender than winning "meaningless games in the bubble"


There are 3 things off about this team, and winning late season meaningless games isnt one of them.
1 - There is no superstar here. Suggs and wagner have that potential. Fultz was thought to be that guy at one point and still can be, but hes not that guy today. Isaac was suppose to be our superstar, but hes only ever become a 1 dimensional walking injury so it wont be him.Outside of those guys, this is team full of role players. WCjr is good, but hes not a star. Cole is good, but unless he fixes his flaws, hes a role player. RJ is all athleticism but just not there. Okeke is the very definition of role player. Bamba is just a guy. No stars. Suns had Booker and Ayton, both of which had star potential and lived up to it. Then added CP, a super star. We dont have those guys

2 - There no experience or leadership on the court. Im fully on board with loading up on all young players, but you have to find ones that have leadership ability. I think Fultz is the closest we have, but hes been out all season and is just now getting into the flow with the guys. Hopefully next year he can be that guy. But even then, we need more.

3 - There is no real bench. And this is one of my biggest gripes with WeHam. They continually trade (sell) away 2nd round pick (some as high as 35), which is thought that they dont want too many young players or want to bring vets for the bench etc....but then they fill the bench with scrubs like MoW, Iggy, Admiral. In the past few years weve sold away pick to teams like the lakers and Bucks....You mean to tell me we dont have room for young players, yet the last 2 champions both were able to find room in their rotations for our pick that we threw away? Or what about the infamous 2017 "the draft flattened out" nonsense were we gave away the 25th....3 of the next 5 picks where Kyle Kuzma, Derrick White, and Josh Hart... you mean those guys couldnt help us?.
WeHam get alot of flack for missing on guys like Isaac, Bamba and drafting a player with a torn ACL, but their later picks, or lack there of, is a big part of why this team is so bad