2021-22 NBA Rookie Thread (part 6) - with ROY poll

[OrlMagic05]

For me right now its Evan with Cade coming in a VERY close 2nd. Barnes gets votes because he started HOT, but has fallen down to earth, but still is a very good player.

Franz is still one of if not the most underrated rookie of this class. 15ppg 5reb 3ast on 47%FG 35%3pt and 86%FT while barely playing 30mins per game, whereas guys like Barnes are playing 35+mins a game and at times even playing 40+mins. Tanking really has hurts Franz stats as Coach Mosely benches him often to ensure they actually lose.

Franz has 0 games where he has played 40 minutes or more whereas Barnes just in the month of March has played in 6 40 minute games. If Franz was give these opportunities he would definitely be averaging more than 15 5 & 3.

All in all this has been one of the better drafts in a while and Toronto definitely made the right choice passing on Suggs! lol

[Moses ShamMoses]

It's a toss up right now between Cade and Mobley in my mind. What is more important to the voters? Steady, full season performance of Mobley or the post all-star explosion by Cade? I'd personally vote Cade but I'm a Pistons fan

[Tripod]

For me right now its Evan with Cade coming in a VERY close 2nd. Barnes gets votes because he started HOT, but has fallen down to earth, but still is a very good player.

Franz is still one of if not the most underrated rookie of this class. 15ppg 5reb 3ast on 47%FG 35%3pt and 86%FT while barely playing 30mins per game, whereas guys like Barnes are playing 35+mins a game and at times even playing 40+mins. Tanking really has hurts Franz stats as Coach Mosely benches him often to ensure they actually lose.

Franz has 0 games where he has played 40 minutes or more whereas Barnes just in the month of March has played in 6 40 minute games. If Franz was give these opportunities he would definitely be averaging more than 15 5 & 3.

All in all this has been one of the better drafts in a while and Toronto definitely made the right choice passing on Suggs! lol

This is what bothers Raptors fans. "Barnes started hot but has fallen down to earth". REALLY?

He won ROTM in Feb.
Then in March, he increased his pts by 1.9, reb by 1, asts by 1.7, blks by .5. The only thing that went down vs Feb is his TO by .1(a good thing) and steals by .2. And his defense keeps getting better.

But the last few games, what you have seen is the return of OG and GTJ so the pecking order for FGA is back in effect. He has 41 fga the last 4 games combined. As a comparison, Cade has 76 in his last 4 games combined. That's a massive difference.

But Barnes has not fallen down to earth after a hot start. He is still playing great. But he has to play behind vets who demand their shots....as Fred said, someone has to sacrifice and it's the rookie.

Cade will get the ROY if that huge gap in fga continues over Barnes and Mobley for that matter. Voters will remember Cades stats and like you, forget Barnes even though Barnes stats this month are better than his ROTM win. And Cade having the best month of them all late in the season will be remembered.

[toooskies]

Honestly for me it's still Mobley, Barnes, Cade in voting. But I couldn't blame anyone at this point for putting them in any order. Cade is playing the best this month but was probably third from October to February. Barnes is up and down, looking incredible sometimes but having lulls and mis-steps. Mobley has been consistent but his energy had tailed off a bit and didn't adjust as well to changing roles defensively-- you didn't see the flaws in his game until he was asked to defend guys who are much heavier than him.

They're all poised to be future stars, though, so there's no shame in coming in 2nd or 3rd.

[whitehops]

I'm probably in the minority of Pistons fans but I see Cade more as a 2way Devin Booker with vision rather than a Luka. There is some real similarities in their scoring package. If Hayes can ever become a competent shooter from 3 I actually think he makes a really interesting backcourt partner for Cade, where Hayes can be more of a facilitator and Cade more of a scorer

Yep, this is the exact comp I put forth on the Pistons board, and I think the heliocentric stuff is actually losing steam among the majority.

the heliocentric stuff isn't ideal but depending on personnel it's the best move for the team. it's easy to say, "let's take the ball out of doncic's hands a bit more" but then you have to have a scenario where someone else handling the ball is more effective than doncic.

for us it's the same situation as there is nobody even close to cade's ability in pretty much any on-ball situation. example: some people think passing is hayes' best ability. cade is still easily a better play maker than him, why would you intentionally give hayes more of a play making role when you have a better option?

i don't think any pistons fan would object to getting a player talented enough to split ball handling duties with cade. until then though, it's best for the team the more cade runs the show.

[srhcan]

It’s Cade and Barnes now. I’m sorry but Mobley is out. He was slumping before the injury and now will surely be passed by both those other dudes.

Even if Mobley remains out and do not play a single regular season game anymore, I think he will win ROTY. Cade will probably come 2nd and Barnes 3rd.

[reanimator]

I'm probably in the minority of Pistons fans but I see Cade more as a 2way Devin Booker with vision rather than a Luka. There is some real similarities in their scoring package. If Hayes can ever become a competent shooter from 3 I actually think he makes a really interesting backcourt partner for Cade, where Hayes can be more of a facilitator and Cade more of a scorer

Yep, this is the exact comp I put forth on the Pistons board, and I think the heliocentric stuff is actually losing steam among the majority.

the heliocentric stuff isn't ideal but depending on personnel it's the best move for the team. it's easy to say, "let's take the ball out of doncic's hands a bit more" but then you have to have a scenario where someone else handling the ball is more effective than doncic.

for us it's the same situation as there is nobody even close to cade's ability in pretty much any on-ball situation. example: some people think passing is hayes' best ability. cade is still easily a better play maker than him, why would you intentionally give hayes more of a play making role when you have a better option?

i don't think any pistons fan would object to getting a player talented enough to split ball handling duties with cade. until then though, it's best for the team the more cade runs the show.

Yeah, I was approaching it more from an ideal view and how Pistons should approach team building rather than what currently is. Right now, there is simply no co-creator to let Cade work offball a bit more and get easier looks.

Even still, I don't think Cade is a Doncic/Harden/Lebron type where he floor raises a team to the playoffs as the lead scorer/playmaker despite minimal talent surrounding him, but his ability to play offball and defend multiple positions will make him valuable in other ways.

This is not to say he isn't a damn good playmaker with great pace and savviness.

[OrlMagic05]

For me right now its Evan with Cade coming in a VERY close 2nd. Barnes gets votes because he started HOT, but has fallen down to earth, but still is a very good player.

Franz is still one of if not the most underrated rookie of this class. 15ppg 5reb 3ast on 47%FG 35%3pt and 86%FT while barely playing 30mins per game, whereas guys like Barnes are playing 35+mins a game and at times even playing 40+mins. Tanking really has hurts Franz stats as Coach Mosely benches him often to ensure they actually lose.

Franz has 0 games where he has played 40 minutes or more whereas Barnes just in the month of March has played in 6 40 minute games. If Franz was give these opportunities he would definitely be averaging more than 15 5 & 3.

All in all this has been one of the better drafts in a while and Toronto definitely made the right choice passing on Suggs! lol

This is what bothers Raptors fans. "Barnes started hot but has fallen down to earth". REALLY?

He won ROTM in Feb.
Then in March, he increased is pts by 1.9, reb by 1, asts by 1.7, blks by .5. The only thing that went down vs Feb is his TO by .1(a good thing) and steals by .2. And his defense keeps getting better.

But the last few games, what you have seen is the return og OG and GTJ so the pecking order for FGA is back in effect. He has 41 fga the last 4 games combined. As a comparison, Cade has 76 in his last 4 games combined. That's a massive difference.

But Barnes has not fallen down to earth after a hot start. He is still playing great. But he has to play behind vets who demand their shots....as Fred said, someone has to sacrifice and it's the rookie.

Cade will get the ROY if that huge gap in fga continues over Barnes and Mobley for that matter. Voters will remember Cades stats and like you, forget Barnes even though Barnes stats this month are better than his ROTM win.

Never said Barnes sucked or anything.. Barnes came out unexpectedly good averaging 18ppg 9reb2ast the first month and has not had a month like that since. This month has been his best since the first month with 17ppg 8reb 4ast while playing 38MPG!

Oct- 18/9/2
Nov- 14/8/4
Dec-16/8/4
Jan-13/74
Feb- 15/7/3
March-17/8/4

[Sort]

Actually the only real outcome I'm hoping for is the old man running dialogue about which of the three - probably expanding out as the years tick by - has a better career. I watch Barnes, and I just don't see his ability to be a top ten player in this league whereas both Cade and Mobley have potential in my eyes. I'm not stating that as some sort of gospel to tick off Toronto fans, but that I legitimately look forward to seeing their careers go together. Next year will be so telling, especially if Weaver does his job right this summer and both Cleveland and Toronto continue to improve.

[Tripod]

For me right now its Evan with Cade coming in a VERY close 2nd. Barnes gets votes because he started HOT, but has fallen down to earth, but still is a very good player.

Franz is still one of if not the most underrated rookie of this class. 15ppg 5reb 3ast on 47%FG 35%3pt and 86%FT while barely playing 30mins per game, whereas guys like Barnes are playing 35+mins a game and at times even playing 40+mins. Tanking really has hurts Franz stats as Coach Mosely benches him often to ensure they actually lose.

Franz has 0 games where he has played 40 minutes or more whereas Barnes just in the month of March has played in 6 40 minute games. If Franz was give these opportunities he would definitely be averaging more than 15 5 & 3.

All in all this has been one of the better drafts in a while and Toronto definitely made the right choice passing on Suggs! lol

This is what bothers Raptors fans. "Barnes started hot but has fallen down to earth". REALLY?

He won ROTM in Feb.
Then in March, he increased is pts by 1.9, reb by 1, asts by 1.7, blks by .5. The only thing that went down vs Feb is his TO by .1(a good thing) and steals by .2. And his defense keeps getting better.

But the last few games, what you have seen is the return og OG and GTJ so the pecking order for FGA is back in effect. He has 41 fga the last 4 games combined. As a comparison, Cade has 76 in his last 4 games combined. That's a massive difference.

But Barnes has not fallen down to earth after a hot start. He is still playing great. But he has to play behind vets who demand their shots....as Fred said, someone has to sacrifice and it's the rookie.

Cade will get the ROY if that huge gap in fga continues over Barnes and Mobley for that matter. Voters will remember Cades stats and like you, forget Barnes even though Barnes stats this month are better than his ROTM win.

Never said Barnes sucked or anything.. Barnes came out unexpectedly good averaging 18ppg 9reb2ast the first month and has not had a month like that since. This month has been his best since the first month with 17ppg 8reb 4ast while playing 38MPG!

Oct- 18/9/2
Nov- 14/8/4
Dec-16/8/4
Jan-13/74
Feb- 15/7/3
March-17/8/4

I was just pointing out that, according to you, HOT is 18-9-2 and falling down to earth is 17-8-4...lol.

I do wonder if voters will look at efficiency. In raw numbers,

Barnes has made 416 baskets, Cade 403
Barnes has taken 851 shots, Cade 970

So Barnes has made more baskets while taking 119 less shots. Doesn’t that matter?

[Reeko]

For me right now its Evan with Cade coming in a VERY close 2nd. Barnes gets votes because he started HOT, but has fallen down to earth, but still is a very good player.

Franz is still one of if not the most underrated rookie of this class. 15ppg 5reb 3ast on 47%FG 35%3pt and 86%FT while barely playing 30mins per game, whereas guys like Barnes are playing 35+mins a game and at times even playing 40+mins. Tanking really has hurts Franz stats as Coach Mosely benches him often to ensure they actually lose.

Franz has 0 games where he has played 40 minutes or more whereas Barnes just in the month of March has played in 6 40 minute games. If Franz was give these opportunities he would definitely be averaging more than 15 5 & 3.

All in all this has been one of the better drafts in a while and Toronto definitely made the right choice passing on Suggs! lol

This is what bothers Raptors fans. "Barnes started hot but has fallen down to earth". REALLY?

He won ROTM in Feb.
Then in March, he increased is pts by 1.9, reb by 1, asts by 1.7, blks by .5. The only thing that went down vs Feb is his TO by .1(a good thing) and steals by .2. And his defense keeps getting better.

But the last few games, what you have seen is the return og OG and GTJ so the pecking order for FGA is back in effect. He has 41 fga the last 4 games combined. As a comparison, Cade has 76 in his last 4 games combined. That's a massive difference.

But Barnes has not fallen down to earth after a hot start. He is still playing great. But he has to play behind vets who demand their shots....as Fred said, someone has to sacrifice and it's the rookie.

Cade will get the ROY if that huge gap in fga continues over Barnes and Mobley for that matter. Voters will remember Cades stats and like you, forget Barnes even though Barnes stats this month are better than his ROTM win.

Never said Barnes sucked or anything.. Barnes came out unexpectedly good averaging 18ppg 9reb2ast the first month and has not had a month like that since. This month has been his best since the first month with 17ppg 8reb 4ast while playing 38MPG!

Oct- 18/9/2
Nov- 14/8/4
Dec-16/8/4
Jan-13/74
Feb- 15/7/3
March-17/8/4

His numbers dipped in November because Pascal came back. His numbers have gone up in March because for large portions of this month, one if not two of Fred, Gary, and OG have been out due to injury.

If you put Scottie on any other lottery team, with the exception of Cleveland, and you give him the same shot attempts and ball handling responsibilities as Cade, he's likely averaging somewhere in the neighborhood of 20 ppg 8 rpg and 5 apg.

[JackTalkThai]

For me right now its Evan with Cade coming in a VERY close 2nd. Barnes gets votes because he started HOT, but has fallen down to earth, but still is a very good player.

Franz is still one of if not the most underrated rookie of this class. 15ppg 5reb 3ast on 47%FG 35%3pt and 86%FT while barely playing 30mins per game, whereas guys like Barnes are playing 35+mins a game and at times even playing 40+mins. Tanking really has hurts Franz stats as Coach Mosely benches him often to ensure they actually lose.

Franz has 0 games where he has played 40 minutes or more whereas Barnes just in the month of March has played in 6 40 minute games. If Franz was give these opportunities he would definitely be averaging more than 15 5 & 3.

All in all this has been one of the better drafts in a while and Toronto definitely made the right choice passing on Suggs! lol

But Barnes has not fallen down to earth after a hot start. He is still playing great. But he has to play behind vets who demand their shots....as Fred said, someone has to sacrifice and it's the rookie.

This is the circle of life with rookies and rookies who aren’t good enough yet to consistently beat out better and/or more experienced teammates for shots generally don’t win ROTY awards for that exact reason. You need the production to win the ROTY. It’s not an award just based on who mythical and subjective “talent quotient” is the highest.

[OrlMagic05]

This is what bothers Raptors fans. "Barnes started hot but has fallen down to earth". REALLY?

He won ROTM in Feb.
Then in March, he increased is pts by 1.9, reb by 1, asts by 1.7, blks by .5. The only thing that went down vs Feb is his TO by .1(a good thing) and steals by .2. And his defense keeps getting better.

But the last few games, what you have seen is the return og OG and GTJ so the pecking order for FGA is back in effect. He has 41 fga the last 4 games combined. As a comparison, Cade has 76 in his last 4 games combined. That's a massive difference.

But Barnes has not fallen down to earth after a hot start. He is still playing great. But he has to play behind vets who demand their shots....as Fred said, someone has to sacrifice and it's the rookie.

Cade will get the ROY if that huge gap in fga continues over Barnes and Mobley for that matter. Voters will remember Cades stats and like you, forget Barnes even though Barnes stats this month are better than his ROTM win.

Never said Barnes sucked or anything.. Barnes came out unexpectedly good averaging 18ppg 9reb2ast the first month and has not had a month like that since. This month has been his best since the first month with 17ppg 8reb 4ast while playing 38MPG!

Oct- 18/9/2
Nov- 14/8/4
Dec-16/8/4
Jan-13/74
Feb- 15/7/3
March-17/8/4

I was just pointing out that, according to you, HOT is 18-9-2 and falling down to earth is 17-8-4...lol.

I do wonder if voters will look at efficiency. In raw numbers,

Barnes has made 416 baskets, Cade 403
Barnes has taken 851 shots, Cade 970

So Barnes has made more baskets while taking 119 less shots. Doesn’t that matter?

Franz has made 444 on 953 shots while not missing a game. Shows how efficient Franz really is and doesnt get any credit because hes not flashy like Barnes or Cade...

[reanimator]

If you put Scottie on any other lottery team, with the exception of Cleveland, and you give him the same shot attempts and ball handling responsibilities as Cade, he's likely averaging somewhere in the neighborhood of 20 ppg 8 rpg and 5 apg.

What is this based on other than optimism? More than likely his efficiency drops, his turnovers increase, his defensive intensity drops and he doesn't quite get the 5 ppg bump you're alluding to, but thats my opinion.

[OrlMagic05]

This is what bothers Raptors fans. "Barnes started hot but has fallen down to earth". REALLY?

He won ROTM in Feb.
Then in March, he increased is pts by 1.9, reb by 1, asts by 1.7, blks by .5. The only thing that went down vs Feb is his TO by .1(a good thing) and steals by .2. And his defense keeps getting better.

But the last few games, what you have seen is the return og OG and GTJ so the pecking order for FGA is back in effect. He has 41 fga the last 4 games combined. As a comparison, Cade has 76 in his last 4 games combined. That's a massive difference.

But Barnes has not fallen down to earth after a hot start. He is still playing great. But he has to play behind vets who demand their shots....as Fred said, someone has to sacrifice and it's the rookie.

Cade will get the ROY if that huge gap in fga continues over Barnes and Mobley for that matter. Voters will remember Cades stats and like you, forget Barnes even though Barnes stats this month are better than his ROTM win.

Never said Barnes sucked or anything.. Barnes came out unexpectedly good averaging 18ppg 9reb2ast the first month and has not had a month like that since. This month has been his best since the first month with 17ppg 8reb 4ast while playing 38MPG!

Oct- 18/9/2
Nov- 14/8/4
Dec-16/8/4
Jan-13/74
Feb- 15/7/3
March-17/8/4

His numbers dipped in November because Pascal came back. His numbers have gone up in March because for large portions of this month, one if not two of Fred, Gary, and OG have been out due to injury.

If you put Scottie on any other lottery team, with the exception of Cleveland, and you give him the same shot attempts and ball handling responsibilities as Cade, he's likely averaging somewhere in the neighborhood of 20 ppg 8 rpg and 5 apg.

Possibly, but his efficiency would drop. Being on a good team means your not the other teams #1 option to stop. Being on a lottery team means you are the #1 option for the other team to stop.

[JackTalkThai]

If you put Scottie on any other lottery team, with the exception of Cleveland, and you give him the same shot attempts and ball handling responsibilities as Cade, he's likely averaging somewhere in the neighborhood of 20 ppg 8 rpg and 5 apg.

What is this based on other than optimism? More than likely his efficiency drops, his turnovers increase, his defensive intensity drops and he doesn't quite get the 5 ppg bump you're alluding to, but thats my opinion.

+ double teams increase, oppo game planning just for you increases, frustration increases, bumps and bruises increase, usage fatigue increases, and injury likelihood increases. Raptors fans can’t ignore these very real risk factors while only focusing on the potential benefits of a heliocentric role in the offensive.

[srhcan]

Actually the only real outcome I'm hoping for is the old man running dialogue about which of the three - probably expanding out as the years tick by - has a better career. I watch Barnes, and I just don't see his ability to be a top ten player in this league whereas both Cade and Mobley have potential in my eyes. I'm not stating that as some sort of gospel to tick off Toronto fans, but that I legitimately look forward to seeing their careers go together. Next year will be so telling, especially if Weaver does his job right this summer and both Cleveland and Toronto continue to improve.

If Barnes does not improve his shooting then I will agree with you that he is not going to be a top 10 player in this league. But if he does then he probably will have the best career out of all the rookies of this draft class.

[Kurtz]

If you put Scottie on any other lottery team, with the exception of Cleveland, and you give him the same shot attempts and ball handling responsibilities as Cade, he's likely averaging somewhere in the neighborhood of 20 ppg 8 rpg and 5 apg.

What is this based on other than optimism? More than likely his efficiency drops, his turnovers increase, his defensive intensity drops and he doesn't quite get the 5 ppg bump you're alluding to, but thats my opinion.

When Scottie played with a short roster (like when Pascal and OG were out) his scoring and rebounding increased significantly. His efficiency also improved, I believe. With a healthy roster, he's a 4th option on this team offensively which off course limits his output.

[whitehops]

March
barnes - 17.1 PPG on .537 TS%
cade - 22.5 PPG on .544 TS%
mobley - 15.4 PPG on .555 TS%

the efficiency argument is losing steam...

shout out to jalen green too, he's averaging 20.1 PPG on .591 TS%.

[Reeko]

If you put Scottie on any other lottery team, with the exception of Cleveland, and you give him the same shot attempts and ball handling responsibilities as Cade, he's likely averaging somewhere in the neighborhood of 20 ppg 8 rpg and 5 apg.

What is this based on other than optimism? More than likely his efficiency drops, his turnovers increase, his defensive intensity drops and he doesn't quite get the 5 ppg bump you're alluding to, but thats my opinion.

It's based on what I've seen him do with players ahead of him in the pecking order, out of the line up.