2021-22 NBA Rookie Thread (part 6) - with ROY poll

[Vampirate]

For me right now its Evan with Cade coming in a VERY close 2nd. Barnes gets votes because he started HOT, but has fallen down to earth, but still is a very good player.

Franz is still one of if not the most underrated rookie of this class. 15ppg 5reb 3ast on 47%FG 35%3pt and 86%FT while barely playing 30mins per game, whereas guys like Barnes are playing 35+mins a game and at times even playing 40+mins. Tanking really has hurts Franz stats as Coach Mosely benches him often to ensure they actually lose.

Franz has 0 games where he has played 40 minutes or more whereas Barnes just in the month of March has played in 6 40 minute games. If Franz was give these opportunities he would definitely be averaging more than 15 5 & 3.

All in all this has been one of the better drafts in a while and Toronto definitely made the right choice passing on Suggs! lol

I'll be on record that I was praising Franz earlier in the year. Franz atm is the best combination of height + skill on offense.

Cade is the most skilled overall and Barnes is the best combination of power and skill.

But playing 40 minutes is a double edge sword here. It can wear you out.

If Franz played for Nurse, he'd be way more fatigued, not only the minutes, but Nurse probably demands that Franz constantly defends the opponents best players lol.

Also, yes, Franz as well becomes the #4 option, not because of his ability or lack thereof, but because of the Raptors scoring Hierarchy. Essentially FVV, Siakam and OG will be the first 3 options no matter who the rookie is.

[whitehops]

Cade's a negative on both sides of the ball still.

even advanced metrics need context. there's a reason that despite cade's advanced numbers being poor he has far and away the best on/off net rating on the pistons, even with other pistons having better advanced numbers.

[LoveMyRaps]

Any word on Mobley ? Is he expected to miss games with the ankle sprain?

Heard the X-Rays came back negative which is definitely some good news.

[lobosloboslobos]

this tweet is a bit confusing but it shows the players each of Mobley, Cade and Barnes have defended. The first pic on the left is Mobley. The second on the top right is Cade. The third on the bottom is Scottie.

The key takeaway is for all the talk about how great Mobley's help defense is, in Barnes you have a rookie guarding the very best players in the league nigh after night, and although I don't know how to find the actual results I know that he is doing a great job of it. He has kept some of these legends very much in check. As far as non-boxscore factors to consider that is pretty huge.

Read on Twitter

?s=20&t=HdJj809iGyMFFqdGiDal7A

[Vampirate]

Cade's a negative on both sides of the ball still.

even advanced metrics need context. there's a reason that despite cade's advanced numbers being poor he has far and away the best on/off net rating on the pistons, even with other pistons having better advanced numbers.

Barnes and Cade are a perfect match on offense tbh

Barnes looks like he's going to be the dominant interior scorer in the draft class and I also consider Barnes to be the superior passer of the 2.

Cade looks like he's going to be the premiere perimeter, deep mid scorer in the draft class.

I think Green, Franz and Kuminga are kind of their own thing.

Cade with Barnes could be an off ball threat and this is where Cade's bag of tricks and perimeter game could really shine.

If either player gets doubled you'd simply pass it to the other as both have obvious high BBIQ and both can manipulate defenses.

Also both are big and strong and can see over defenses because of their size.

[reanimator]

Cade's a negative on both sides of the ball still.

even advanced metrics need context. there's a reason that despite cade's advanced numbers being poor he has far and away the best on/off net rating on the pistons, even with other pistons having better advanced numbers.

I also consider Barnes to be the superior passer of the 2.

Is this an eye thing? I'd go the other way myself. I think Barnes has more flash but Cade is more polished/advanced with his reads.

I agree with your overall point about their fit which makes since given they were teammates.

[whitehops]

Read on Twitter

even quality media like the athletic haven't paid attention to cade... dude put up 34/8/8 in january and they're acting like he's the second rookie to put up 30/5...

[cupcakesnake]

I'm not into the Cade hype for ROY.

Cade is going to be an awesome player, I love watching him play, he definitely is a top 3 pick still in a re-draft, and still has a chance to become the best player in his draft class. Love his potential on offense and defense and I do think he was clearly the 3rd best rookie in this class.

But Cade was not good this year. Mobley and Barnes were good. I have compassion for the size of his role, and accept that had he been put on the Cavs or the Raps, he might have been absolutely balling out in a smaller role. But this award is for what actually happened this season. The counting stats make it look like Cade belongs in the discussion, but the briefest of glimpses under the hood show that Mobley and Cade were real impact NBA players this season and Cade wasn't. Cade got more possessions, more shots, more ball handling duties, but he did not make good stuff happen. His defense was excellent, but not on Barnes and Mobley's level. I've watched all 3 a lot.

I think if you have Cade at #1 or #2 on your ballot, you're giving him credit for hypotheticals and being overly respectful of how overtasked he was this year as an offensive fulcrum on a very bad team this year. Mobley and Barnes straight up had better season, don't overthink it.

[whitehops]

Read on Twitter

KD obviously hasn't seen cade's VORP, WS/48, RAPTOR or TS%...

[Vampirate]

even advanced metrics need context. there's a reason that despite cade's advanced numbers being poor he has far and away the best on/off net rating on the pistons, even with other pistons having better advanced numbers.

I also consider Barnes to be the superior passer of the 2.

Is this an eye thing? I'd go the other way myself. I think Barnes has more flash but Cade is more polished/advanced with his reads.

I agree with your overall point about their fit which makes since given they were teammates.

Look at their A/TO ratios

Cade's is 5.6 assists/3.7 Turnovers, Cade has a very high BBIQ obviously, but that's not exactly pretty. Also keep in mind Cade is the offense of the Pistons, period. Cade on the Raptors would be in a reduced role. The Raptors hierarchy and all that.

Cade's best night by just dishing was by far against Cleveland where he recorded 10 assists and 1 turn over

Barnes is 3.5 assists/ 1.9 turnovers, an almost 2/1 ratio. If Barnes was on the Pistons instead he'd be taking the Cade role as again, no one would be close to talent. Barnes would commit more turnovers no doubt but would also average a lot of assists.

Barnes best night was against Denver where he recorded 10 assists and 1 Turnover


The thing about Barnes is he just does not turn the ball over that often. In March, he has not recorded a single game of over 3 turnovers. His A/TO was 4.3/1.8

In the last 10 games, Barnes A/TO ratio is 4.7/1.8, Cade's is 7.9/4.6 which is still good, but i'd take Barnes here on higher usage.

Given higher usage and being the entire focal point of the offense, with no one being close, I think Barnes could (hypothetically of course) average 6 assists/ 3 turnovers.

Barnes since college has had a similar ratio and might be improving here. Cade has not and has to address that issue, (he only has 1 game here he's recorded 0 turnovers), which is perfectly reasonable.

Like anything, I guess it depends on what you put stock into.

[reanimator]

I also consider Barnes to be the superior passer of the 2.

Is this an eye thing? I'd go the other way myself. I think Barnes has more flash but Cade is more polished/advanced with his reads.

I agree with your overall point about their fit which makes since given they were teammates.

Look at their A/TO ratios

Cade's is 5.6 assists/3.7 Turnovers, Cade has a very high BBIQ obviously, but that's not exactly pretty. Also keep in mind Cade is the offense of the Pistons, period. Cade on the Raptors would be in a reduced role. The Raptors hierarchy and all that.

Cade's best night by just dishing was by far against Cleveland where he recorded 10 assists and 1 turn over

Barnes is 3.5 assists/ 1.9 turnovers, an almost 2/1 ratio. If Barnes was on the Pistons instead he'd be taking the Cade role as again, no one would be close to talent. Barnes would commit more turnovers no doubt but would also average a lot of assists.

Barnes best night was against Denver where he recorded 10 assists and 1 Turnover


The thing about Barnes is he just does not turn the ball over that often. In March, he has not recorded a single game of over 3 turnovers. His A/TO was 4.3/1.8

In the last 10 games, Barnes A/TO ratio is 4.7/1.8, Cade's is 7.9/4.6 which is still good, but i'd take Barnes here on higher usage.

Given higher usage and being the entire focal point of the offense, with no one being close, I think Barnes could (hypothetically of course) average 6 assists/ 3 turnovers.

Barnes since college has had a similar ratio and might be improving here. Cade has not and has to address that issue, (he only has 1 game here he's recorded 0 turnovers), which is perfectly reasonable.

Like anything, I guess it depends on what you put stock into.

Turnovers are part of it sure and if you value ball control above all then I get it, but Cade just generates more assistable makes and even hockey assist as a function of him making more advanced reads. Even if you adjust for usage, Cade still fares better:



But like you said, its just what you value. I don't see Cade as a Luka/Lebron/Harden type passer primarily due to the ball control issues, but probably only have Giddey above as a passer with Scottie top 5.

[everdiso]

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[whitehops]

Like anything, I guess it depends on what you put stock into.

and you put your stock solely into AST to TO ratio? in 2009 jose calderon averaged 8.9 assists to 2.1 TOV. steve nash that season averaged 9.7 assists to 3.4 TOV. calderon's AST/TO ratio was markedly better so i'm assuming you'd rather take calderon to run your offense that season?

[Liqourish]

I'm not into the Cade hype for ROY.

Cade is going to be an awesome player, I love watching him play, he definitely is a top 3 pick still in a re-draft, and still has a chance to become the best player in his draft class. Love his potential on offense and defense and I do think he was clearly the 3rd best rookie in this class.

But Cade was not good this year. Mobley and Barnes were good. I have compassion for the size of his role, and accept that had he been put on the Cavs or the Raps, he might have been absolutely balling out in a smaller role. But this award is for what actually happened this season. The counting stats make it look like Cade belongs in the discussion, but the briefest of glimpses under the hood show that Mobley and Cade were real impact NBA players this season and Cade wasn't. Cade got more possessions, more shots, more ball handling duties, but he did not make good stuff happen. His defense was excellent, but not on Barnes and Mobley's level. I've watched all 3 a lot.

I think if you have Cade at #1 or #2 on your ballot, you're giving him credit for hypotheticals and being overly respectful of how overtasked he was this year as an offensive fulcrum on a very bad team this year. Mobley and Barnes straight up had better season, don't overthink it.

[Vampirate]

Like anything, I guess it depends on what you put stock into.

and you put your stock solely into AST to TO ratio? in 2009 jose calderon averaged 8.9 assists to 2.1 TOV. steve nash that season averaged 9.7 assists to 3.4 TOV. calderon's AST/TO ratio was markedly better so i'm assuming you'd rather take calderon to run your offense that season?

Not only obviously, but it does provide context.

I've said it before, I want to see Cade with better teammates before I make any true final conclusions, however Cade's TOs are an issue as of now and it's something that's followed him from College.

This is not an indication that he's not going to clean it up, but it's something for him to work on in the off season, just like Barnes needs to work on his 3 point shot and FT shooting, as does Mobley.

Every rookie has their Achilles heel.

Here's Kobe commenting on guarding rookie KD

"When he first came into the league, he was easy to defend because he couldn't go right and shoot. He shot kinda across his face so that was a weakness that he had. Also, in the post, he couldn't turn left shoulder, everything was right shoulder so that gave me areas that I could shut off."

https://fadeawayworld.net/nba-media/kobe-bryant-explains-why-kevin-durant-was-the-hardest-player-to-guard

Case in point, a weakness is a weakness and every rookie has them.

[whitehops]

Not only obviously, but it does provide context.

I've said it before, I want to see Cade with better teammates before I make any true final conclusions, however Cade's TOs are an issue as of now and it's something that's followed him from College.

since we're talking about passing, i think it's important to separate passing TOs and ball handling TOs.

BBall-Ref has cade with 113 "bad pass" turnovers and barnes with 77. that makes their "AST to bad pass TO" ratio:

cade - 2.96
barnes - 3.03

difference is less than 0.1...

[HumbleRen]

lol at saying Cade isn't getting enough media attention

[Vampirate]

Not only obviously, but it does provide context.

I've said it before, I want to see Cade with better teammates before I make any true final conclusions, however Cade's TOs are an issue as of now and it's something that's followed him from College.

since we're talking about passing, i think it's important to separate passing TOs and ball handling TOs.

BBall-Ref has cade with 113 "bad pass" turnovers and barnes with 77. that makes their "AST to bad pass TO" ratio:

cade - 2.96
barnes - 3.03

difference is less than 0.1...

At the end of the day we'd take our own rookies in passing and both have good cases (i'll repeat I want to see how cade does with better teammates), both have very high BBIQ.

Here's an interesting experiment flip Barnes and Cade to the other team what happens?

Predict both players numbers and impact, also try and be as unbiased as possible. FWIW Cade would be the 4th option on the Raptors because that's kind of the Raptors MO with their shooting hierarchy, not because he has the skill of the 4th option.

Cade
FVV
Siakam
Precious
GTJ

Nurse

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Barnes
Grant
Bey
Heyes
Stewart

Casey

[orlando_joe]

any magic fan know how to list the "is this anything" from mondays game?..i forgot what it was but had franz as only 7 rookies ever and 6 were hall of fame and rookie of yr..and only 3 played every game? and last player to do it was like 92?

[OrlMagic05]

any magic fan know how to list the "is this anything" from mondays game?..i forgot what it was but had franz as only 7 rookies ever and 6 were hall of fame and rookie of yr..and only 3 played every game? and last player to do it was like 92?

Doesnt matter. Franz gets no love here lol This is the Barnes, Cade, Mobley thread lol