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OT - Watching the neighbors

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Re: OT - Watching the neighbors 

Post#81 » by esqtvd » Wed Mar 30, 2022 8:20 pm

nickhx2 wrote:
madmaxmedia wrote:
Kelphus wrote:https://bleacherreport.com/articles/10030461

For those of us who hate thr fLakers. Enjoy


2 or 3 (or more) bad lower-profile deals can really swing a team…OTOH we’ve had a lot of low profile deals go our way, which is exactly the reason why we we’ve played near .500 ball all year without both our stars. And I’m still scratching my head wondering how we got both Norman and RoCo in that trade.

We are only this year giving up the first of 3 1st rounders to OKC, but with our roster I don’t think we’re going to bottom out before the last pick goes. And I don’t think we have to worry about the pick swaps either.


i mean westbrook was obviously bad but i didn't realize the extent of some of these other moves.

i swear i was reading it and thinking these were doc-level moves the entire time. certainly not sorry for them, but just goes to show you how badly a front office can screw up a good thing.



FTR--Doc didn't trade away our future, or stick us with any untradeable Walls or Westbrooks, and what picks he did trade away were monkey picks in the 20s that didn't turn out to much. Unlike many other failed GMs, he left us in decent shape.

[And he never had a draft bust as bad as Jerome Robinson at #13 either. :wink: ]
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Re: OT - Watching the neighbors 

Post#82 » by LamarWho » Wed Mar 30, 2022 9:14 pm

Russ made this season so enjoyable for me. But lately he's been a bit "disappointing". :lol:
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Re: OT - Watching the neighbors 

Post#83 » by nickhx2 » Wed Mar 30, 2022 9:45 pm

sometimes i feel bad for westbrook, because he really gets put into the spotlight way more than any one person should, and often unfairly.

but that said, he also does it to himself by so often being surly and condescending to reporters. and if he had even an ounce of humility in his game where he could admit his own obvious flaws then i don't think he'd be targeted so much. he's been scummy to them for so long, it's not really a surprise.

either way like i said, the whole thing is an unmitigated disaster for the lakers. i think if any person were looking to become a GM, it'd be hard to have better examples than the doc-rivers clippers and these lakers as study options: and not because of the obvious bad moves, which are pretty obvious. it's the small errors in the margins that absolutely burn you, something doc was notorious for and something that seems to be a running theme for pelinka's current tenure.

the details matter. not flippantly throwing around contracts matters. not lighting first-round picks on fire to clean up egregious mistakes matters. understanding that draft picks are a near priceless currency for a team that's capped out matters.

and i'm glad we have a FO that now understands that. i guess i don't mind reveling a bit though that the lakers are where they are and they've set themselves back by probably 5+ years lol.
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Re: OT - Watching the neighbors 

Post#84 » by og15 » Wed Mar 30, 2022 10:54 pm

The Lakers made the big Westbrook move that many star players felt "why would I want this". Westbrook knew what he was getting into as a player whose game (ball handler / playmaker) is similar to LeBron.

If I was a free agent, I would have to consider everything," veteran swingman Trevor Ariza said. "But my role is different than PG and Kawhi. They ask them to do different things than they ask of me. Guys similar to [LeBron], why would they want to play with somebody who does all the same things? I can see why they would want to play elsewhere."


"So much hype comes from being around LeBron from other people," Durant said. "He has so many fanboys in the media. Even the beat writers just fawn over him. I'm like, we're playing basketball here, and it's not even about basketball at certain points. So I get why anyone wouldn't want to be in that environment because it's toxic. Especially when the attention is bull attention, fluff. It's not LeBron's fault at all; it's just the fact you have so many groupies in the media that love to hang on every word. Just get out of the way and let us play basketball."


"If you succeed with the Lakers, you will be loved forever," Gasol said. "But there's also tension and pressure and drama like nowhere else. There are dozens of media outlets that are constantly looking for a story. It depends on who you are and what you're made of. But if you succeed, it's sweet. There's nothing like it."



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Re: OT - Watching the neighbors 

Post#85 » by esqtvd » Thu Mar 31, 2022 1:57 am

nickhx2 wrote:sometimes i feel bad for westbrook, because he really gets put into the spotlight way more than any one person should, and often unfairly.

but that said, he also does it to himself by so often being surly and condescending to reporters. and if he had even an ounce of humility in his game where he could admit his own obvious flaws then i don't think he'd be targeted so much. he's been scummy to them for so long, it's not really a surprise.

either way like i said, the whole thing is an unmitigated disaster for the lakers. i think if any person were looking to become a GM, it'd be hard to have better examples than the doc-rivers clippers and these lakers as study options: and not because of the obvious bad moves, which are pretty obvious. it's the small errors in the margins that absolutely burn you, something doc was notorious for and something that seems to be a running theme for pelinka's current tenure.

the details matter. not flippantly throwing around contracts matters. not lighting first-round picks on fire to clean up egregious mistakes matters. understanding that draft picks are a near priceless currency for a team that's capped out matters.

and i'm glad we have a FO that now understands that. i guess i don't mind reveling a bit though that the lakers are where they are and they've set themselves back by probably 5+ years lol.



Doc made little moves with crap picks in the 20s and didn't get stuck with any huge contracts either. Not comparable. The Lakers went all-in for Bron and hit some bad luck with Anthony Davis's fragility. And of course there's the Westbrook debacle.

The Clippers similarly went all-in for Kawhi, and frankly got lucky that Reggie stepped up BIGTIME to hold things together, and even more lucky that Pandemic P came back from his humiliation in The Bubble with his head on straight--he was a new man. We could easily be where the Lakers are now.

And don't forget we lucked into Norman Powell and RoCo because of the billions of extra dollars Ballmer has and Jeanie Buss doesn't. It's easy to be smug but it wasn't organizational brilliance that pulled that one off either. Portland was dealing and Ballmer is flush.


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Re: OT - Watching the neighbors 

Post#86 » by MartinToVaught » Thu Mar 31, 2022 2:12 am

I like Russ, but there's no denying that his stubbornness has been a blessing and a curse. It's what fueled his hard-working, tough Energizer Bunny playstyle earlier in his career that made me like him in the first place, but it's also why he refuses to adjust his game now that he's gotten older and lost a step.

I do think he gets way too much hate when the Lakers' underachievement is entirely AD's fault as far as players are concerned. He's the one still in his prime, he's the one who was supposed to step up and become the leader by now, and it hasn't happened. Not only is he one of the softest players in the league, but he also seems content with his one bubble ring and doesn't really care anymore. It also doesn't help that he's so injury-prone.
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Re: OT - Watching the neighbors 

Post#87 » by og15 » Thu Mar 31, 2022 2:27 am

MartinToVaught wrote:I like Russ, but there's no denying that his stubbornness has been a blessing and a curse. It's what fueled his hard-working, tough Energizer Bunny playstyle earlier in his career that made me like him in the first place, but it's also why he refuses to adjust his game now that he's gotten older and lost a step.

I do think he gets way too much hate when the Lakers' underachievement is entirely AD's fault as far as players are concerned. He's the one still in his prime, he's the one who was supposed to step up and become the leader by now, and it hasn't happened. Not only is he one of the softest players in the league, but he also seems content with his one bubble ring and doesn't really care anymore. It also doesn't help that he's so injury-prone.

There is NO ONE who it is "entirely" their fault, come on, that's just ridiculous. What has happened in the 38 games without Davis? Westbrook can't carry a team alongside LeBron to a better record than Reggie Jackson? We talking about AD as if this is about being 5th or 6th instead of 1st or 2nd. Lakers are 11th!

Westbrook style has always been expected to hurt him later in his career, nothing surprising. Even with Paul George, I didn't expect them to win anything with their supporting cast, but two first round exits without even getting to game 7, just underachieving, and no, it wasn't simply Paul George's fault. Westbrook post Durant is a 39/29 shooter in the playoffs with 4.7 tpg, 1 series win on the back of Harden, and an 8-21 record.

Westbrook got a lot of pity and support after everyone got mad at Durant for going to GS, and liking Westbrook was the thing to do, but he was always a player with a style that only wins you at a high level if paired up with someone who can be efficient and make up for his wildness while allowing his positives to shine.
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Re: OT - Watching the neighbors 

Post#88 » by NickP » Thu Mar 31, 2022 2:53 am

og15 wrote:
MartinToVaught wrote:I like Russ, but there's no denying that his stubbornness has been a blessing and a curse. It's what fueled his hard-working, tough Energizer Bunny playstyle earlier in his career that made me like him in the first place, but it's also why he refuses to adjust his game now that he's gotten older and lost a step.

I do think he gets way too much hate when the Lakers' underachievement is entirely AD's fault as far as players are concerned. He's the one still in his prime, he's the one who was supposed to step up and become the leader by now, and it hasn't happened. Not only is he one of the softest players in the league, but he also seems content with his one bubble ring and doesn't really care anymore. It also doesn't help that he's so injury-prone.

There is NO ONE who it is "entirely" their fault, come on, that's just ridiculous. What has happened in the 38 games without Davis? Westbrook can't carry a team alongside LeBron to a better record than Reggie Jackson? We talking about AD as if this is about being 5th or 6th instead of 1st or 2nd. Lakers are 11th!

Westbrook style has always been expected to hurt him later in his career, nothing surprising. Even with Paul George, I didn't expect them to win anything with their supporting cast, but two first round exits without even getting to game 7, just underachieving, and no, it wasn't simply Paul George's fault. Westbrook post Durant is a 39/29 shooter in the playoffs with 4.7 tpg, 1 series win on the back of Harden, and an 8-21 record.

Westbrook got a lot of pity and support after everyone got mad at Durant for going to GS, and liking Westbrook was the thing to do, but he was always a player with a style that only wins you at a high level if paired up with someone who can be efficient and make up for his wildness while allowing his positives to shine.

Perfectly put!
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Re: OT - Watching the neighbors 

Post#89 » by NickP » Thu Mar 31, 2022 2:53 am

LamarWho wrote:Russ made this season so enjoyable for me. But lately he's been a bit "disappointing". :lol:

LMFAO
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Re: OT - Watching the neighbors 

Post#90 » by madmaxmedia » Fri Apr 1, 2022 8:41 pm

og15 wrote:
MartinToVaught wrote:I like Russ, but there's no denying that his stubbornness has been a blessing and a curse. It's what fueled his hard-working, tough Energizer Bunny playstyle earlier in his career that made me like him in the first place, but it's also why he refuses to adjust his game now that he's gotten older and lost a step.

I do think he gets way too much hate when the Lakers' underachievement is entirely AD's fault as far as players are concerned. He's the one still in his prime, he's the one who was supposed to step up and become the leader by now, and it hasn't happened. Not only is he one of the softest players in the league, but he also seems content with his one bubble ring and doesn't really care anymore. It also doesn't help that he's so injury-prone.

There is NO ONE who it is "entirely" their fault, come on, that's just ridiculous. What has happened in the 38 games without Davis? Westbrook can't carry a team alongside LeBron to a better record than Reggie Jackson? We talking about AD as if this is about being 5th or 6th instead of 1st or 2nd. Lakers are 11th!

Westbrook style has always been expected to hurt him later in his career, nothing surprising. Even with Paul George, I didn't expect them to win anything with their supporting cast, but two first round exits without even getting to game 7, just underachieving, and no, it wasn't simply Paul George's fault. Westbrook post Durant is a 39/29 shooter in the playoffs with 4.7 tpg, 1 series win on the back of Harden, and an 8-21 record.

Westbrook got a lot of pity and support after everyone got mad at Durant for going to GS, and liking Westbrook was the thing to do, but he was always a player with a style that only wins you at a high level if paired up with someone who can be efficient and make up for his wildness while allowing his positives to shine.


Their whole season has been a disaster for multiple reasons, but I do get his point in terms of the biggest disappointment. Russ was a wildcard but we all knew that going in. Lebron is Lebron, still great but doesn't have the same gravity as he gets older.

Anthony Davis was going to be the one who helped Lebron to a title now (which did happen) and then become the centerpiece going forward as Lebron got older and eventually leaves the team. With his injuries and general lack of aggression, if he's the centerpiece going forward it's not going to amount to much.

I have no idea how the Lakers improve the team going forward, I mean they can make incremental improvements for next season if Lebron is still a Laker but after that who knows. Barring any major moves I guess they will have cap space for a major signing after RW's contract is up AND Lebron leaves, but not if Lebron stays.
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Re: OT - Watching the neighbors 

Post#91 » by og15 » Sat Apr 2, 2022 1:43 pm

madmaxmedia wrote:
og15 wrote:
MartinToVaught wrote:I like Russ, but there's no denying that his stubbornness has been a blessing and a curse. It's what fueled his hard-working, tough Energizer Bunny playstyle earlier in his career that made me like him in the first place, but it's also why he refuses to adjust his game now that he's gotten older and lost a step.

I do think he gets way too much hate when the Lakers' underachievement is entirely AD's fault as far as players are concerned. He's the one still in his prime, he's the one who was supposed to step up and become the leader by now, and it hasn't happened. Not only is he one of the softest players in the league, but he also seems content with his one bubble ring and doesn't really care anymore. It also doesn't help that he's so injury-prone.

There is NO ONE who it is "entirely" their fault, come on, that's just ridiculous. What has happened in the 38 games without Davis? Westbrook can't carry a team alongside LeBron to a better record than Reggie Jackson? We talking about AD as if this is about being 5th or 6th instead of 1st or 2nd. Lakers are 11th!

Westbrook style has always been expected to hurt him later in his career, nothing surprising. Even with Paul George, I didn't expect them to win anything with their supporting cast, but two first round exits without even getting to game 7, just underachieving, and no, it wasn't simply Paul George's fault. Westbrook post Durant is a 39/29 shooter in the playoffs with 4.7 tpg, 1 series win on the back of Harden, and an 8-21 record.

Westbrook got a lot of pity and support after everyone got mad at Durant for going to GS, and liking Westbrook was the thing to do, but he was always a player with a style that only wins you at a high level if paired up with someone who can be efficient and make up for his wildness while allowing his positives to shine.


Their whole season has been a disaster for multiple reasons, but I do get his point in terms of the biggest disappointment. Russ was a wildcard but we all knew that going in. Lebron is Lebron, still great but doesn't have the same gravity as he gets older.

Anthony Davis was going to be the one who helped Lebron to a title now (which did happen) and then become the centerpiece going forward as Lebron got older and eventually leaves the team. With his injuries and general lack of aggression, if he's the centerpiece going forward it's not going to amount to much.

I have no idea how the Lakers improve the team going forward, I mean they can make incremental improvements for next season if Lebron is still a Laker but after that who knows. Barring any major moves I guess they will have cap space for a major signing after RW's contract is up AND Lebron leaves, but not if Lebron stays.
I have no issue with a person saying that if you divy up the blame percentages, AD has the highest. On the other hand, for someone to say that any of the people involved are entirely at fault is either ridiculous hyperbole, extreme bias for others causing one to try and deflect blame away from them (I know MTV is a huge LeBron supporter and on the Westbrook bandwagon), or just being out of the loop. I don't think anyone can be out of the loop about the Lakers situation, so it's either the first or second or a mixture of both.

MartintoVaught is super biased, he knows it, we all know it, there's no secret there, he's not trying to hide it or doing a poor job if so. And that's all good, do you, and it can be entertaining at times to read the takes.

That said, due to that, the 2nd option likely plays a huge factor. I mean MTV, dude, your anti-Chris Paul bias is so bad that you were even trying to seriously argue and maybe even convince yourself that Paul and Griffin played the same role on their respective playoff teams last season. If you can die on the hill of objectively terrible arguments, then, sure, I can also see how you can say it's ALL AD's fault that the Lakers are 11th in the West and everyone else I guess are just passive victims of AD's incompetence as a player. Because if it's not all AD's fault then LeBron and Westbrook have to get implicated and well...

In the end, with an older LeBron where injuries actually become a reality for him and a factor in his play, and with AD who is injury prone, the Lakers benefitted a lot from the bubble. If the season continued as it was, the Lakers had a lower chance of staying healthy through the playoffs and being as strong in the finals if they got there as some of their opponents. Still were a great team that could have won, but the bubble advantaged them more than some other teams due to their specific players.
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Re: OT - Watching the neighbors 

Post#92 » by MartinToVaught » Sat Apr 2, 2022 1:53 pm

I said "as far as players are concerned." Obviously the dysfunctional Buss family, Kurt and Linda Rambis, Pelinka, Magic (who apparently still has input in the front office), etc. share the overall blame for how the Lakers' season has turned out. But as far as players are concerned, I still have no problem saying it's AD's fault.

LeBron is 37 and Westbrook is also on the wrong side of 30. They've both lost a few steps, which has hit Russ hard in particular. They shouldn't have to carry a team at this stage of their careers when they physically can't do it anymore. That's supposed to be prime AD's job, and he has failed miserably at it, so it's his fault. And no, his injuries aren't an excuse because he's soft as hell when he does play, easily the softest guy LeBron has ever played with. He was a ghost in the fourth quarter last night. It's even worse when you consider how much the Lakers traded away for him (their lottery pick is going straight to New Orleans this year, for example).
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Re: OT - Watching the neighbors 

Post#93 » by NickP » Sat Apr 2, 2022 8:01 pm

MartinToVaught wrote:I said "as far as players are concerned." Obviously the dysfunctional Buss family, Kurt and Linda Rambis, Pelinka, Magic (who apparently still has input in the front office), etc. share the overall blame for how the Lakers' season has turned out. But as far as players are concerned, I still have no problem saying it's AD's fault.

LeBron is 37 and Westbrook is also on the wrong side of 30. They've both lost a few steps, which has hit Russ hard in particular. They shouldn't have to carry a team at this stage of their careers when they physically can't do it anymore. That's supposed to be prime AD's job, and he has failed miserably at it, so it's his fault. And no, his injuries aren't an excuse because he's soft as hell when he does play, easily the softest guy LeBron has ever played with. He was a ghost in the fourth quarter last night. It's even worse when you consider how much the Lakers traded away for him (their lottery pick is going straight to New Orleans this year, for example).

I'm sorry but if LeBron is still touted as one of the best players in the league today, then his age should not be made as an excuse.
He and AD wanted Russ over Buddy Hield. With the roster LeBron had, the Lakers should have had a better record, period. Not expecting them to be first or second but definitely not this?
Russ was nothing more than a stat padder his entire career. I have seen him play at Pauley many times as I've supported my Bruins but never liked Russ and his hot headed immature approach towards the game.
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Re: OT - Watching the neighbors 

Post#94 » by ejftw » Sat Apr 2, 2022 8:49 pm

Depending on who you trust, that Hield trade instead would've allowed the Lakers to keep KCP and their own first round pick, if I recall correctly. Although some had speculated the Lakers first would also be going to Sacramento, so humoring it in that sense, they would've kept a solid 3&D guard, added a shooting threat with consistency and they could've made the money work to keep Caruso.

Most likely wouldn't have signed Nunn with the TMLE in that scenario, at least imo, and, ultimately, would've had more options as KCP could've been used as ballast at the deadline, potentially for Powell themselves.

Pelinka really dropped the ball, a GM should listen to input from his players, especially those of Bron and ADs caliber, but he needs to be the one making the decisions, not the players.

But, ultimately, the Lakers mortgaged the mid and late 2020s with their eyes on an ultimate ring. They accomplished that. Clippers did the same, but our FO has navigated in a way they could potentially avoid the bottom out, albeit, haven't accomplished the ring goal, yet.
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Re: OT - Watching the neighbors 

Post#95 » by og15 » Sun Apr 3, 2022 3:27 pm

MartinToVaught wrote:I said "as far as players are concerned." Obviously the dysfunctional Buss family, Kurt and Linda Rambis, Pelinka, Magic (who apparently still has input in the front office), etc. share the overall blame for how the Lakers' season has turned out. But as far as players are concerned, I still have no problem saying it's AD's fault.

LeBron is 37 and Westbrook is also on the wrong side of 30. They've both lost a few steps, which has hit Russ hard in particular. They shouldn't have to carry a team at this stage of their careers when they physically can't do it anymore. That's supposed to be prime AD's job, and he has failed miserably at it, so it's his fault. And no, his injuries aren't an excuse because he's soft as hell when he does play, easily the softest guy LeBron has ever played with. He was a ghost in the fourth quarter last night. It's even worse when you consider how much the Lakers traded away for him (their lottery pick is going straight to New Orleans this year, for example).

Mediocre Team vs Bad Team
I would buy this argument if we are talking about whether they should be a top 3 seed vs a 5-6th seed. If the Lakers were 6th or 7th and AD has underperformed like he has and all that, yes, I can put all the blame on him for that result. The Lakers are 11th, they are in danger of missing even the play in.

Westbrook and Lebron are not even able to keep them at 500, and may not even be able to get them a top 10 record in their conference. This is something that barely All-Star players on unimpressive rosters can accomplish. If this was a pre-play in season, Lakers at this point probably would basically have no chance at the playoffs.

So either other top Lakers players are also at fault, or AD is a once in a generation all time talent who can take a team from 11th to contender just by playing more games. Sorry, I don’t buy AD as being that type of player, no one is going to argue he is, and if he isn’t, then other players are also at fault to some degree.

Can't be both top and unable to carry
Lebron I’m not going to harp on him much, I like him and have a slight bias towards him admittedly, but Lebron is either one of the leagues top players and can carry a team, or he’s 37 and no longer in that tier of players. Problem is that people want it to be both. People want to put him in that top tier of players but then also say, "but he's 37 and can't carry a team", but if you say that second part, then you remove him out of that tier of players.


Only 85th percentile Athleticism = Poor excuses
Westbrook turned 33 in November. His close-ish contemporary, Chris Paul helped a young OKC team to 44-28 (50 win pace) at 34 years old. His even closer contemporary in Curry is still performing and his team was 45-19 when he played.

I’m not asking that Westbrook be as good as his prime, but the same stubbornnesses that made Westbrook great has been predicted for a long time to be what will cause his downfall if he was unwilling to change and to adapt and improve other areas of his game. The other issue is that because of how high he started athletically, even at 33, Westbrook is still more athletic than 85% of PG'S in the league, which means it is skills and IQ holding him back. This Westbrook now is still MUCH more athletic than Paul and Curry at 29 years old, and bigger, so losing a step is a weak excuse that is just an admission of a skill and IQ deficit.

If a players excuse is that "I'm not longer in the 99th percentile of athleticism, I'm just in the 85th percentile, so I can't be good anymore", that doesn't make them look good.
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Re: OT - Watching the neighbors 

Post#96 » by esqtvd » Mon Apr 4, 2022 7:13 am

lovin' it :rofl2:

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Re: OT - Watching the neighbors 

Post#97 » by madmaxmedia » Mon Apr 4, 2022 2:04 pm

It’s Carmelo’s fault.
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Re: OT - Watching the neighbors 

Post#98 » by MartinToVaught » Mon Apr 4, 2022 2:14 pm

It's always amusing when Laker fans think they're somehow "trolling" the Clippers by giving the Clippers their money.
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Re: OT - Watching the neighbors 

Post#99 » by og15 » Mon Apr 4, 2022 6:42 pm

MartinToVaught wrote:It's always amusing when Laker fans think they're somehow "trolling" the Clippers by giving the Clippers their money.

As long as they cheer for the right team while they are there
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Re: OT - Watching the neighbors 

Post#100 » by MartinToVaught » Wed Apr 6, 2022 4:52 am

Happy Lakers Elimination Day, everybody!
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