How likely is it that Giannis finishes in your top 10 all-time?

[SinceGatlingWasARookie]

I wish he had to dribble. How much better would David Robison have been had he been allowed to carry the ball.

[dygaction]

I wish he had to dribble. How much better would David Robison have been had he been allowed to carry the ball.

If he were allowed to travel, Could he be LeBron good?

[SinceGatlingWasARookie]

I wish he had to dribble. How much better would David Robison have been had he been allowed to carry the ball.

If he were allowed to travel, Could he be LeBron good?

No not LeBron good (although LeBron is one of the big beneficiaries of legalized traveling combined with ref faroritism towards big stars) LeBron, especiall young LeBron was a very good dribbler but he just chose to travel because traveling is more efficient if the refss will allow it.

No I am thinking about whether peak pre-injury Robinson could have been better than Giannis at Giannis's game if Robinson traveled like Giannis and the refs did not make the call like they don't call Giannis. Actually Giannis might be the league leader in travels called as well as being the leader in uncalled travels. Robinson can't just decide to travel and be Giannis. Gianniis learned a play style that looks a bit out of control compared to Robinson but Giannis is comfortable driving at the edge of his ability and at the edge of being called for traveling by moder rules and modern traveling rules are loser than the rules Robinson played by.

I consider James Worthy the first modern dribbler and by modern dribbler I mean not dribbling but rather running with the ball. Worthy bounced the ball more than Giannis but bounced the ball less per distance crossed than anybody else in the NBA. If they let you travel then traveling is more efficient than dribbling. Phyically and in the way they look on their drives I see some similarity between Robinson and Giannis but Robinson did not push himself to the edge of his abilities or to the edge of the travel call.

I think Robinson could have learned to play Giannis's game if he was encouraged to do so.

[sp6r=underrated]

Modern rules aren't worse. Older rules aren't necessarily better. Gradual loosening of carrying/traveling enforcement has been a constant trend throughout NBA history. The impact is underdiscussed.

The pick and roll wouldn't be as hard to defend if the NBA strictly enforced moving screens. Driving to the lane wouldn't be as easy if carrying was enforced.

But you can't fault Giannis for playing by the rules of his era anymore than you can fault handchecking guards for playing by the rules of their era.

This is one reason cross-era comparisons are so hard and fun.

Another thing to think about sneakers. Imagine how many turned ankles if players jumped like they do today in 1974 sneakers.

[BenoUdrihFTL]

2 things Giannis really has going for him here:

- At age 27 is already more accomplished in terms of the most elite hardware (MVP, FMVP, DPOY awards) than much of the top 10 and he even has a good chance to add to it this season (gun to my head I'd probably pick Milwaukee to win it all this season which would almost assuredly mean another FMVP). So he's already compiling an extremely formidable peak

- Defense. With the exceptions of Magic and Bird -- and perhaps even Shaq -- the top 10 is composed of elite defensive talent and Giannis certainly checks that box

What concerns me is the longevity component, whether Giannis will be able to sustain his peak/prime. Injury and HIV cut Bird and Magic's careers short, and Hakeem was robbed of his early peak/prime due to internal conflict in Houston, but the top 10 generally requires longevity. I don't foresee injuries or off court issues derailing Giannis but I do think he'll need to broaden his skill level in order to fully maximize his longevity. Right now his physicality, athleticism and motor just overwhelms opponents, but going into his 30s he's probably gonna need to rely more on skills as his physical prime fades

Ultimately I haven't been more optimistic about a player's chances of cracking top 10 since LeBron. Whether it happens for Giannis could very well come down to this season and next as I think these will be golden opportunities for him to stack his trophy case since there's no real juggernaut opponents standing in his way or on the horizon. That, and with both Middleton and Jrue about to turn 31 and 32yo this summer, could mean that there may be no better opportunity for Giannis to compile the unofficial requisite ring count for top 10

[tonyreyes123]

Guys like Curry/Giannis are going to knock guys like Kobe/Hakeem out of the top 10 by the time they retire

[tsherkin]

Modern rules aren't worse. Older rules aren't necessarily better. Gradual loosening of carrying/traveling enforcement has been a constant trend throughout NBA history. The impact is underdiscussed.

I like this take.

At the time, I was pissed that Allen Iverson was permitted to dead-ass cheat every time he touched the ball, but like, the game is very entertaining to watch. And he was a forerunner of that change, alongside And-1 and all that, a very popular player who showed the league an aspect of the game fans really, really wanted to see. The creativity afforded players who take advantage of the way the calling of the game has changed has introduced a whole new layer to the sport. Fans like it, on average, so ultimately it's a good thing unless you're a purist. And honestly, I liked 80s and 90s ball more than 60s and 70s ball, so it would be hypocritical of me to grief the league for changing what it endorses and permits in the game.

[falcolombardi]

Modern rules aren't worse. Older rules aren't necessarily better. Gradual loosening of carrying/traveling enforcement has been a constant trend throughout NBA history. The impact is underdiscussed.

I like this take.

At the time, I was pissed that Allen Iverson was permitted to dead-ass cheat every time he touched the ball, but like, the game is very entertaining to watch. And he was a forerunner of that change, alongside And-1 and all that, a very popular player who showed the league an aspect of the game fans really, really wanted to see. The creativity afforded players who take advantage of the way the calling of the game has changed has introduced a whole new layer to the sport. Fans like it, on average, so ultimately it's a good thing unless you're a purist. And honestly, I liked 80s and 90s ball more than 60s and 70s ball, so it would be hypocritical of me to grief the league for changing what it endorses and permits in the game.

it all depends on how Extreme it is

too loose rules and too strict rules can be both bad for the game, where is the line of balance depends on everyone preference

being a purist is when you lean on the most strict or traditional* rules possible

*usually only as far back as 80's, nobody i have seen be purist enough to demand no 3 point line or no shot clock

[sp6r=underrated]

Modern rules aren't worse. Older rules aren't necessarily better. Gradual loosening of carrying/traveling enforcement has been a constant trend throughout NBA history. The impact is underdiscussed.

I like this take.

At the time, I was pissed that Allen Iverson was permitted to dead-ass cheat every time he touched the ball, but like, the game is very entertaining to watch. And he was a forerunner of that change, alongside And-1 and all that, a very popular player who showed the league an aspect of the game fans really, really wanted to see. The creativity afforded players who take advantage of the way the calling of the game has changed has introduced a whole new layer to the sport. Fans like it, on average, so ultimately it's a good thing unless you're a purist. And honestly, I liked 80s and 90s ball more than 60s and 70s ball, so it would be hypocritical of me to grief the league for changing what it endorses and permits in the game.

it all depends on how Extreme it is

too loose rules and too strict rules can be both bad for the game, where is the line of balance depends on everyone preference

being a purist is when you lean on the most strict or traditional* rules possible

*usually only as far back as 80's, nobody i have seen be purist enough to demand no 3 point line or no shot clock

Does it make me a purist because I want to push back the line to reduce the 3pa-rate

[tsherkin]

Does it make me a purist because I want to push back the line to reduce the 3pa-rate

A little, yeah. And like, personal preference is your business, and there's nothing wrong with that opinion. Me? I love it. I haven't seen a stretch of basketball I have enjoyed as much as this past half decade since the 80s. It's different, but the skill and talent depth in the game now is wild.

[falcolombardi]

I like this take.

At the time, I was pissed that Allen Iverson was permitted to dead-ass cheat every time he touched the ball, but like, the game is very entertaining to watch. And he was a forerunner of that change, alongside And-1 and all that, a very popular player who showed the league an aspect of the game fans really, really wanted to see. The creativity afforded players who take advantage of the way the calling of the game has changed has introduced a whole new layer to the sport. Fans like it, on average, so ultimately it's a good thing unless you're a purist. And honestly, I liked 80s and 90s ball more than 60s and 70s ball, so it would be hypocritical of me to grief the league for changing what it endorses and permits in the game.

it all depends on how Extreme it is

too loose rules and too strict rules can be both bad for the game, where is the line of balance depends on everyone preference

being a purist is when you lean on the most strict or traditional* rules possible

*usually only as far back as 80's, nobody i have seen be purist enough to demand no 3 point line or no shot clock

Does it make me a purist because I want to push back the line to reduce the 3pa-rate

you would be a ultra purist if you wanted to dissapears the 3 point shot in general

moving the line back is the opposite, a radical but new/experimental change like creating the 3 point line was at the time

[sp6r=underrated]

you would be a ultra purist if you wanted to dissapears the 3 point shot in general

moving the line back is the opposite, a radical but new/experimental change like creating the 3 point line was at the time

In the last 4 years, 3 point Attempt rate, has increased 18%. I fully expect the NBA will have a 3paR of over 50% by 2026 and 60% by 2035 at the latest if the line remains constant.

[tsherkin]

In the last 4 years, 3 point Attempt rate, has increased 18%. I fully expect the NBA will have a 3paR of over 50% by 2026 and 60% by 2035 at the latest if the line remains constant.

It makes sense. If you can leverage it, do it, right?

Entertainingly, we've seen a major post renaissance as a result of the 3pt line and it's new usage as defenses have had to spread out so much to deal with that threat, so we're actually seeing a whole pile of older-school style bigs out there, as long as they can pass and hit a mid-range jumper at least (ideally a 3 in the right moment/context, but still). I've been adoring watching Embiid and Jokic and Towns and even Vucevic and so forth. What a wild ride.

[falcolombardi]

you would be a ultra purist if you wanted to dissapears the 3 point shot in general

moving the line back is the opposite, a radical but new/experimental change like creating the 3 point line was at the time

In the last 4 years, 3 point Attempt rate, has increased 18%. I fully expect the NBA will have a 3paR of over 50% by 2026 and 60% by 2035 at the latest if the line remains constant.

ehh, it depends, if teams can become even better at 3 point shooting to the degree it is better or more efficient than getting to the rim then yeah

can players really become good enough at shooting to accomplish that tho? wouldnt defense just start prioritizong tge 3 point line over the rim creating more shots at the rim?

[Laimbeer]

Giannis has made pretty notable improvement across the board on his distance splits this season...

0 to 3 feet
18-21: 50.4% of FGAs | .791 FG%
21-22: 39.9% of FGAs | .807 FG%

3 to 10 feet
18-21: 16.7% of FGAs | .362 FG%
21-22: 20.1% of FGAs | .422 FG%

10 to 16 feet
18-21: 7.1% of FGAs | .391 FG%
21-22: 12.3% of FGAs | .415 FG%

16 feet to 3P
18-21: 5.7% of FGAs | .379 FG%
21-22: 8.0% of FGAs | .435 FG%

Pretty much going to come down to health & how the Bucks postseasons go from here on out. Plus he could still figure out the three ball somewhere down the road.

Season isn't quite done yet, but four year peak Giannis has some pretty impressive ranks currently...

PER
Jordan 24-27: 31.4
Giannis 24-27: 31.1
Chmbrln 24-27: 30.7
LeBron 24-27: 30.2
Shaq 27-30: 30.1

TS%
Barkley 24-27: .654
Durant 24-27: .636
Curry 25-28: .636
Giannis 24-27: .631
Magic 27-30: .608
Michael 24-27: .607

WS/48
Kareem 23-26: .309
Jordan 24-27: .301
LeBron 24-27: .289
Durant 24-27: .283
Chmbrln 24-27: .278
Giannis 24-27: .277

Plus two MVP's and a ring at the age of 26. I'd also think he has more potential for improvement than a typical player of his age, as well as a desire to get better. Plus he's very durable. Bird was #10 on the last list and he's well within range (assuming longevity for Giannis). I think it's more likely than not.