Doc out!!!!!!!!!

[Wammy Giveaway]

That said. Why do we even keep this thread up. The guy is proving in Philly he is overrated. His son is proving he was never anything more than a 10 day contract pick-up player and not someone you open the checkbook for.

Some threads are worth keeping track of, and this could be one of them. And it all has to do with a what-if.

We know Doc has done subpar with Magic, Clippers and currently 76ers. His only taste of victory was with Celtics. The Celtics are a legacy franchise, one of the teams that helped make the NBA what it is today. The other legacy franchise is the Lakers.

There are rumors that Frank Vogel could be fired by the end of the season. If Doc were to be fired as well, what if the Lakers went out to get him. By default, Doc is a bad coach - when coaching non-legacy teams. On the Lakers, he's got James, Davis and possibly any other All-Star the front office will look to get. What if Doc becomes the championship coach the Clippers expected him to be, but only with legacy teams? The fact that Doc is motivated by vendettas, he'll surely coach his soul off to get revenge on his former team, especially in the playoffs.

If Doc Rivers joined the Lakers and takes them to a title, especially if that league leading 18th title included a revenge tour vs. Clippers, it will say a lot about his legacy. And any good will the Clippers developed will be immediately erased, turning them back into the losers of the Sterling era.

Couple that with their final years in the Crypto Center, and possibly James desiring former Clipper Chris Paul to play for the purple-and-gold (provided he fails in the Finals, let alone gets there), it would be seen as the Clipper's worst nightmare.

[esqtvd]

Doc has been gone for 3 seasons and we're STILL talking about him?
Yeesh.

This thread came back because of this:

Read on Twitter

?t=UB8uDIwtTacskou0uFnMZg&s=19

Seems pretty relevant to Clippers fans when someone is cited as saying he put the team on the map (media titles of course always to be examined).

asked and answered

As a point of order, this rehash of the rehash of the rehashrehashrehash was about Doc was ACTUALLY talking about--his part in making the Clippers org--especially [!] after the collapse of the Lob City dream--an NBA destination.

Kawhi came to Doc's HOUSE! Not Clipper HQ or a hotel room with Ballmer and Lawrence Frank and a bunch of front office suits pitching him with corporate bullsh*it. Doc had remade the entire organization and just fashioned a playoff team out of NOTHING but the ashes of Lob City.

FTR---That veteran Del Negro team tore off an early 17-game winning streak [Nov 28, 2012 - Jan 1, 2013] and then played .500 ball the rest of the way--then got skunked in the first round by the Grizz in 6 games.

The rotation was a complete clusterf***, which is why CP got him fired. [And Vinnie never got another job again.]

https://www.basketball-reference.com/playoffs/2013-nba-western-conference-first-round-grizzlies-vs-clippers.html

After sneaking up on teams still finding their feet in the early season, they still only played .500 ball in the second half and after dropping 4 in a row--each by 10 points or more--to get booted from the playoffs, CP did get him fired. Perhaps unfairly, but the point here is that Vinnie did not leave a smooth-running machine behind for the next coach to take credit for.

From the ORIGINAL article--Doc is speaking of organizational credibility, not wins and losses. He replaced the entire front office from GM to scouting to sports medicine to nutrition and OVERCAME the Sterling stank:

https://www.inquirer.com/sixers/sixers-doc-rivers-elevates-clippers-from-laughingstock-20220324.html

“He meant a lot to the organization,” Tobias Harris said. “When I got there, I was like, I’m going to get to play for Doc Rivers. Like seeing Lob City everything. So just that whole thing like his resume as well, it was huge what he brought to the Clippers.”

[esqtvd]

After Putrid Sixers Road Loss, the Big Talking Point is a Possibly Misinterpreted Doc Rivers Quote


https://www.crossingbroad.com/2022/04/after-putrid-sixers-road-loss-the-big-talking-point-is-a-possibly-misinterpreted-doc-rivers-quote.html

[clipperlover]

i'll give doc whatever credit he deserves for malfeasance but missing out on ben wallace isn't on that list

In 1999-2000 Ben Wallace started 81 games for Orlando. Had 8.2 Rbs and 1.6 Blocks, .9 stls in 24 Min/gm. He was in the Top 20 in only 2 categories (Total Blocks, 17th, Total Rebounds 19th).

His 1st year in Detroit, Ben led the NBA in Total Rebounds and Defensive Rebounds and was #2 in Rbs/gm and #2 in Offensive Rebounds. Was Top 10 in blocks and Blocks per game. He was tied for 5th in Defensive POY voting.

His 2nd Year in Detroit he was DPOY, #1 Blks/gm, #1 Rbs/gm, Top 15 in stls (as a big man).

The only winners in the sign and trade for Grant Hill were Detroit and Grant Hill. Doc was just happy to get Hill and McGrady. It was his easy button.

This is a good read.
https://nbatrades.tumblr.com/post/30885980193/grant-hill-sign-trade-to-orlando

Joe Dumars was quite excited to land Ben Wallace.

[clipperlover]

Doc is truly one of the most overrated coaches of all time.

He is living off of one title that had a starting line-up of 3 HoF players. That line-up needed a 41 pt performance from Paul Pierce to win in Game 7 @ home vs a LeBron James team that had Delonte West and Wally Szerbiak starting. A game where the Cavs were down 1 with 2:20 remaining. A game 7 closeout game where Garnett had 13 and Ray Allen 4 (1 basket in the late 2nd and 2 fts at the end).

Doc was the HC when the Magic traded away Ben Wallace for the sole purpose of being able to give Grant Hill a 7th year at 12.5% raises instead of 6 years at 10%. If Doc understood a player's potential, Ben Wallace would have stayed in Orlando. We all know what Wallace went on to do. Doc's dream of McGrady and Hill. We were able to get Keyon Dooling and Corey Maggette in their salary dump to get 2 stars.

That said. Why do we even keep this thread up. The guy is proving in Philly he is overrated. His son is proving he was never anything more than a 10 day contract pick-up player and not someone you open the checkbook for.

Unless Doc was the GM or in a basketball operations role, why would this pinned to him?

mental illness lol

Call me confused. In today's "woke" culture, am I supposed to just brush this off, get offended, or put you on blast for making light of a disability, or scream some kind of ism?

F'it, I choose option 1.

[KL2]

Um …

Read on Twitter

Read on Twitter

[esqtvd]

Um …

Read on Twitter

Read on Twitter

the REAL hero of Clipper history

[nickhx2]

i love lawrence fishburne

[MartinToVaught]

"I think Joel at the five is as good of a dominant center defensively as there is in the league," said Rivers, who had a 13-year playing career. "Because probably, he’s a scorer, it’s like Michael [Jordan] in some ways. No one really talked about Michael's defense."

https://www.inquirer.com/sixers/philadelphia-sixers-star-joel-embiid-deserves-mvp-award-20220404.html

Wow, another brilliant take from the genius who compared DJ to Bill Russell and Ben Simmons to Magic. Embiid is just like Jordan, and nobody talked about MJ's defense. It's not like he won DPOY and was first team all-defense nine times or anything.

[madmaxmedia]

Um …

Read on Twitter

Read on Twitter

the REAL hero of Clipper history

Yes, she was truly OUR right hand, arm man.

[nickhx2]

one of the greatest cancels ever

[esqtvd]

"I think Joel at the five is as good of a dominant center defensively as there is in the league," said Rivers, who had a 13-year playing career. "Because probably, he’s a scorer, it’s like Michael [Jordan] in some ways. No one really talked about Michael's defense."

https://www.inquirer.com/sixers/philadelphia-sixers-star-joel-embiid-deserves-mvp-award-20220404.html

Wow, another brilliant take from the genius who compared DJ to Bill Russell and Ben Simmons to Magic. Embiid is just like Jordan, and nobody talked about MJ's defense. It's not like he won DPOY and was first team all-defense nine times or anything.

Doc Rivers is a players' coach. He gets the best out of his players. THAT is his gift as a coach. Nobody has left his team and got better. [And just DON'T Reggie Bullock me on this ]

His JOB is to bullh*it you into thinking you're good. And then the dirtbags actually dirt him when he bullshi*ts about you in the press? And THEN the dirtbags actually dirt him when he doesn't bullshi*t about you in the press?? [Ben Simmons is still MIA in Brooklyn lol, ouch my back hurts ]


Joel Embiid is playing the best ball of his career and finally stepped up as the team leader. And Doc made deadass Deandre Jordan an All-Star and made him $100 million by lying to him that he was part of a Big Three with a #1 overall draft pick and a 1st-ballot HOFer.

And now Doc is saving DJ from the humiliation of two consecutive buyouts by finding him meaningful minutes on a championship contender.

Let alone what Doc did for Andre Drummond. Or Keyon Dooling.

KEYON DOOLING DESCRIBES WHAT IT MEANT TO HIM TO HAVE DOC RIVERS' UNCONDITIONAL SUPPORT after admitting himself to a mental health institution

https://www.foxsports.com/watch/1419145283695


I've never argued that Doc is a great gameday coach. And Ty Lue is doing wonderfully--part of the Doc Rivers coaching tree. The student surpasses the master? That's as it should be--Doc Rivers GOT Ty his first job. CREATED it.

Former Boston Celtics coach Doc Rivers insisted Danny Ainge hire Ty Lue as an assistant.

https://www.masslive.com/celtics/2018/11/boston_celtics_doc_rivers_ty_l.html


Kawhi or PG or Blake or CP could turn up on Doc's doorstep tomorrow--or in 20 years--and he'd take them in even if they helped get him fired.

It's how he rolls. They know. They ALL know. And FTR--for the 100th time--I wasn't against him getting fired either: somebody had to go and it wasn't going to be Kawhi & PG. But that is no excuse to spit on his grave--he left the Clippers org FAR better than he found it and there is not one NBA player who wouldn't jump at the chance to play for Doc Rivers. Case closed.

[MartinToVaught]

LOL. Doc is a "players' coach" who's lost the locker room everywhere he's coached. The only reason he's called a "players' coach" is because even his biggest apologists can't praise his X's and O's or adjustments, so that's the narrative they're left with.

Nobody's improved after leaving Doc except for the players who have, who don't count because reasons. Never mind Bullock - Ben Wallace became a HOFer, a champion, a perennial all-star and DPOY after leaving Doc. Tony Allen became an NBA all-defensive team mainstay after leaving Doc. Even Al Jefferson became an all-NBA player after leaving Doc. Mann and Coffey were superglued to the bench under Doc; Lue has developed them into key contributors for us. So much for Doc getting the most out of his players.

DJ has been washed for years and is still horrible in Philly. Sixers fans are now dealing with his former Clipper bias the same way we had to put up with his former Celtic bias.

[donemilio21]

Doc is not a bad coach because we lost in playoffs. He is a bad coach, because he found ways to lose the games that we should have won.
I hope he takes the Laker job after Vogl.

[og15]

LOL. Doc is a "players' coach" who's lost the locker room everywhere he's coached. The only reason he's called a "players' coach" is because even his biggest apologists can't praise his X's and O's or adjustments, so that's the narrative they're left with.

Nobody's improved after leaving Doc except for the players who have, who don't count because reasons. Never mind Bullock - Ben Wallace became a HOFer, a champion, a perennial all-star and DPOY after leaving Doc. Tony Allen became an NBA all-defensive team mainstay after leaving Doc. Even Al Jefferson became an all-NBA player after leaving Doc. Mann and Coffey were superglued to the bench under Doc; Lue has developed them into key contributors for us. So much for Doc getting the most out of his players.

DJ has been washed for years and is still horrible in Philly. Sixers fans are now dealing with his former Clipper bias the same way we had to put up with his former Celtic bias.

I'm never going on argue that Doc is some amazing developmental coach, and he has no such reputation. Since Celtics he also hasn't even wanted to coach in development situations if he didn't have to. I will say that it doesn't have to be all or nothing, he doesn't have to be great or the worst ever.

Young players getting better as they get older isn't an indictment on a coach. Al Jefferson was 22 averaging 16/11 with Doc, he wasn't being held back because he had better numbers at 23 and older as he developed. If he has stayed with Boston and wasn't traded for KG he would have been the All-Star level player still. Tony Allen on Boston was on the same team as Ray Allen and Paul Pierce and was traded when they were still only 32 and 34, it would make no sense for him to play over them. There's no coach that would have displaced those two players minutes for him and he's not a PG, so couldn't get PG minutes.

Ben Wallace yea, possibly, but remember Orlando also had Bo Outlaw, and at that time they were 25 and 28 respectively, and you simply can't play those two extended minutes on the court together. Ben started all 81 he played and played 24 mpg and Outlaw started 55 games playing 28 mpg. They certainly should have adjusted their roster make up if they kept him, but Ben landed in a situation with Detroit that just worked better for him fit wise too. There was nothing special about coach George Irvine who played him 34.5 mpg, but the roster made more sense for that because Joe Smith started most of the season.

It will be interesting to see how DJ is used though, Doc did have that glory days player/opponent tendency.

[MartinToVaught]

Doc choosing Outlaw over Wallace just because Outlaw was older is yet another classic example of the stubbornness that makes him such a terrible coach. He will always side with the older player unless the younger player's last name is Rivers.

On another note, Doc's already trying to maneuver to his next team before he chokes in the playoffs again:

Read on Twitter

[esqtvd]

LOL. Doc is a "players' coach" who's lost the locker room everywhere he's coached. The only reason he's called a "players' coach" is because even his biggest apologists can't praise his X's and O's or adjustments, so that's the narrative they're left with.

Nobody's improved after leaving Doc except for the players who have, who don't count because reasons. Never mind Bullock - Ben Wallace became a HOFer, a champion, a perennial all-star and DPOY after leaving Doc. Tony Allen became an NBA all-defensive team mainstay after leaving Doc. Even Al Jefferson became an all-NBA player after leaving Doc. Mann and Coffey were superglued to the bench under Doc; Lue has developed them into key contributors for us. So much for Doc getting the most out of his players.

DJ has been washed for years and is still horrible in Philly. Sixers fans are now dealing with his former Clipper bias the same way we had to put up with his former Celtic bias.

I'm never going on argue that Doc is some amazing developmental coach, and he has no such reputation. Since Celtics he also hasn't even wanted to coach in development situations if he didn't have to. I will say that it doesn't have to be all or nothing, he doesn't have to be great or the worst ever.

Young players getting better as they get older isn't an indictment on a coach. Al Jefferson was 22 averaging 16/11 with Doc, he wasn't being held back because he had better numbers at 23 and older as he developed. If he has stayed with Boston and wasn't traded for KG he would have been the All-Star level player still. Tony Allen on Boston was on the same team as Ray Allen and Paul Pierce and was traded when they were still only 32 and 34, it would make no sense for him to play over them. There's no coach that would have displaced those two players minutes for him and he's not a PG, so couldn't get PG minutes.

Ben Wallace yea, possibly, but remember Orlando also had Bo Outlaw, and at that time they were 25 and 28 respectively, and you simply can't play those two extended minutes on the court together. Ben started all 81 he played and played 24 mpg and Outlaw started 55 games playing 28 mpg. They certainly should have adjusted their roster make up if they kept him, but Ben landed in a situation with Detroit that just worked better for him fit wise too. There was nothing special about coach George Irvine who played him 34.5 mpg, but the roster made more sense for that because Joe Smith started most of the season.

It will be interesting to see how DJ is used though, Doc did have that glory days player/opponent tendency.

DJ is playing adequately in 10 minutes a night although the baboons are screaming for him to play the G-Leaguers instead lol. It's the same everywhere.

FTR Doc gave Mann and even Coffey playoff minutes as rookies and carefully shepherded SGA through his rookie ups and downs and made him an NBA starter worthy of being the centerpiece of the Paul George trade. And at the moment in Philadelphia he has 2nd-year man Tyrese Maxey playing at a near-all-star level.

As for Ben Wallace, he was with Doc for only ONE YEAR in 1999 and his stats per-36 as a Piston are exactly the same as with the Magic--

DET 7.3 ppg/12.2 rpg/2.5 bpg
ORL 7.2 ppg/12.2 rpg/2.4 bpg

Digging up dirt from over 20 years ago is risible but the narrative dies hard.

[og15]

Doc choosing Outlaw over Wallace just because Outlaw was older is yet another classic example of the stubbornness that makes him such a terrible coach. He will always side with the older player unless the younger player's last name is Rivers.

On another note, Doc's already trying to maneuver to his next team before he chokes in the playoffs again:

Read on Twitter

I thought that report was hilarious, isn't Doc signed for 3 more years with Philly? Who came up with the report?

I can't comment on what exactly was going on in Orlando then, but Big Ben had his first shot as a slotted in consistent starter with Doc. Even on a tragic Washington team the previous season, he played 22 mpg the first 33 games and started 3 of them, and it was only in the final 13 games of the season where he got big minutes and was a full time starter. I'm not really going to go at a coach for being the first coach to consistent start a player because he didn't then post that guy 30+ mpg on a poor fit roster. Choosing a 28 year old over a 25 year old is not a big deal, and Bo Outlaw if you remember was actually a similar style player to Ben, but more versatile positionally as he could play 3/4/5.

[NickP]

Doc is not a bad coach because we lost in playoffs. He is a bad coach, because he found ways to lose the games that we should have won.
I hope he takes the Laker job after Vogl.

Cosign!

[MartinToVaught]

Choosing a 28 year old over a 25 year old is not a big deal, and Bo Outlaw if you remember was actually a similar style player to Ben, but more versatile positionally as he could play 3/4/5.

Except Outlaw fell off a cliff immediately after they let Ben go and they ended up dumping him at the start of the following season for an over-the-hill Jud Buechler. (Funnily enough, it was a three-team deal that also sent VDN to the Clippers.) Meanwhile, Ben became a superstar in Detroit. It was an obvious blunder no matter how you spin it. They had benefited from the Wizards' stupidity in letting Wallace get away only to turn around and make the same mistake themselves.