Article: We don't talk enough about Jokic's scoring

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Article: We don't talk enough about Jokic's scoring 

Post#1 » by Cubbies2120 » Tue Apr 5, 2022 9:39 pm

https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/we-dont-talk-enough-about-nikola-jokics-scoring/

Even to his acolytes, seeing “the Joker” trailing only “the Stilt” in a bully-ball metric might come as something of a shock. Appraising Jokić as a scorer presents the same challenge as watching, say, an early career Steph Curry or Dirk Nowitzki. The bulk of his points come in ways that still seem like they shouldn’t consistently work. Curry fired off threes in closer quarters and from farther distances than any MVP type had ever done before; Nowitzki hoisted fadeaways that felt, the first few thousand times, like forfeitures of a 7-footer’s advantage. Jokić doesn’t have as obvious a calling card as those two — he gets it done via water-fountain hooks, half-speed drives and the one-legged Sombor Shuffle — but gives off the same dissonance.


Jokic is right behind Wilt on the list of highest FG% for people who put up 20+ppg

Interesting fact that his mid range is better than Dirk's, which seems incredible considering how unstoppable Dirk's midrange game was.
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Re: Article: We don't talk enough about Jokic's scoring 

Post#2 » by Mickey8 » Tue Apr 5, 2022 9:58 pm

He could be 30 ppg scorer if he wanted to and very efficient one . Every season there is the month and half when he doesn't look to score the ball, its tradition now .
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Re: Article: We don't talk enough about Jokic's scoring 

Post#3 » by Cubbies2120 » Tue Apr 5, 2022 10:03 pm

Mickey8 wrote:He could be 30 ppg scorer if he wanted to and very efficient one . Every season there is the month and half when he doesn't look to score the ball, its tradition now .


Or if he was simply officiated like other MVP candidates instead of having to lose his cool against the refs, he could live at the line as well. I think we would see a 70+% TS season out of him if he averaged 11+ FTA instead of the 6(!) he does now.
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Re: Article: We don't talk enough about Jokic's scoring 

Post#4 » by eyeatoma » Tue Apr 5, 2022 10:04 pm

Lol

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Re: Article: We don't talk enough about Jokic's scoring 

Post#5 » by The High Cyde » Tue Apr 5, 2022 10:34 pm

Well, I’m legitimately surprised when he misses a shot, I feel like any shot he throws up is good. So yeah.
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Re: Article: We don't talk enough about Jokic's scoring 

Post#6 » by Cubbies2120 » Tue Apr 5, 2022 10:35 pm

eyeatoma wrote:Lol

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Great contribution to the thread!

On topic:

Will be interesting to see what happens when Jokic can't be double teamed when surrounded by two more amazing shooters who can also create for themselves/others.
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Re: Article: We don't talk enough about Jokic's scoring 

Post#7 » by Whopper_Sr » Tue Apr 5, 2022 10:52 pm

Jokic is the most efficient high volume scorer in the league with a pedestrian FTr.

He's been poor from 3 the past couple of weeks but he's absolute money from anywhere inside the arc. Elite post scorer, mid range shooter, and offensive rebounder as well.

He's doing all this while shouldering most of the playmaking and creation load and on a team with subpar spacing.
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Re: Article: We don't talk enough about Jokic's scoring 

Post#8 » by GeorgeMarcus » Tue Apr 5, 2022 10:57 pm

Cubbies2120 wrote:
Mickey8 wrote:He could be 30 ppg scorer if he wanted to and very efficient one . Every season there is the month and half when he doesn't look to score the ball, its tradition now .


Or if he was simply officiated like other MVP candidates instead of having to lose his cool against the refs, he could live at the line as well. I think we would see a 70+% TS season out of him if he averaged 11+ FTA instead of the 6(!) he does now.


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It's a shame you gotta tarnish an otherwise valid OP with this flawed/thinly veiled commentary
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Re: Article: We don't talk enough about Jokic's scoring 

Post#9 » by eathb_au » Tue Apr 5, 2022 11:00 pm

Jokic is definitely a 32 PPG+ player if he was only an average passer
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Re: Article: We don't talk enough about Jokic's scoring 

Post#10 » by falcolombardi » Tue Apr 5, 2022 11:04 pm

Whopper_Sr wrote:Jokic is the most efficient high volume scorer in the league with a pedestrian FTr.

He's been poor from 3 the past couple of weeks but he's absolute money from anywhere inside the arc. Elite post scorer, mid range shooter, and offensive rebounder as well.

He's doing all this while shouldering most of the playmaking and creation load and on a team with subpar spacing.


lebron is the only comparable scorer among low free throw players this year

a step below in efficiency but in higher volume
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Re: Article: We don't talk enough about Jokic's scoring 

Post#11 » by Cubbies2120 » Tue Apr 5, 2022 11:11 pm

GeorgeMarcus wrote:
Cubbies2120 wrote:
Mickey8 wrote:He could be 30 ppg scorer if he wanted to and very efficient one . Every season there is the month and half when he doesn't look to score the ball, its tradition now .


Or if he was simply officiated like other MVP candidates instead of having to lose his cool against the refs, he could live at the line as well. I think we would see a 70+% TS season out of him if he averaged 11+ FTA instead of the 6(!) he does now.


It's a shame you gotta tarnish an otherwise valid OP with this flawed/thinly veiled commentary


? Jokic isn't top 10 in FTA, he could definitely improve his already insane efficiency by getting more fouls called like the other superstars.

Its either:
1. He's not getting officiated the same as other superstars
or
2. He's the most agile big man of all time, capable of avoiding contact despite most of his points coming from the paint.
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Re: Article: We don't talk enough about Jokic's scoring 

Post#12 » by Whopper_Sr » Tue Apr 5, 2022 11:13 pm

falcolombardi wrote:
Whopper_Sr wrote:Jokic is the most efficient high volume scorer in the league with a pedestrian FTr.

He's been poor from 3 the past couple of weeks but he's absolute money from anywhere inside the arc. Elite post scorer, mid range shooter, and offensive rebounder as well.

He's doing all this while shouldering most of the playmaking and creation load and on a team with subpar spacing.


lebron is the only comparable scorer among low free throw players this year

a step below in efficiency but in higher volume


LeBron certainly has a strong case this season. How do you feel about KAT?
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Re: Article: We don't talk enough about Jokic's scoring 

Post#13 » by D.Brasco » Tue Apr 5, 2022 11:15 pm

We don't Jokic no, no, no we don't about Jokic.
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Re: Article: We don't talk enough about Jokic's scoring 

Post#14 » by GeorgeMarcus » Tue Apr 5, 2022 11:20 pm

Cubbies2120 wrote:
GeorgeMarcus wrote:
Cubbies2120 wrote:
Or if he was simply officiated like other MVP candidates instead of having to lose his cool against the refs, he could live at the line as well. I think we would see a 70+% TS season out of him if he averaged 11+ FTA instead of the 6(!) he does now.


It's a shame you gotta tarnish an otherwise valid OP with this flawed/thinly veiled commentary


? Jokic isn't top 10 in FTA, he could definitely improve his already insane efficiency by getting more fouls called like the other superstars.

Its either:
1. He's not getting officiated the same as other superstars
or
2. He's the most agile big man of all time, capable of avoiding contact despite most of his points coming from the paint.


It's neither of those 2 things. He's surprisingly nimble for his size but the biggest reason he doesn't draw as many fouls is because his success relies heavily on lighting-quick decision making. If you watch film of Embiid/Jokic it's easy to verify Joel draws legitimate fouls at a much higher rate.
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Re: Article: We don't talk enough about Jokic's scoring 

Post#15 » by mademan » Tue Apr 5, 2022 11:24 pm

He gets the Lebron treatment, where his passing and playmaking overshadow his claim for best scorer in the league. Jokic absolutely has an argument here alongside Giannis/KD/Embid/Lebron/Luka
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Re: Article: We don't talk enough about Jokic's scoring 

Post#16 » by mademan » Tue Apr 5, 2022 11:29 pm

GeorgeMarcus wrote:
Cubbies2120 wrote:
GeorgeMarcus wrote:
It's a shame you gotta tarnish an otherwise valid OP with this flawed/thinly veiled commentary


? Jokic isn't top 10 in FTA, he could definitely improve his already insane efficiency by getting more fouls called like the other superstars.

Its either:
1. He's not getting officiated the same as other superstars
or
2. He's the most agile big man of all time, capable of avoiding contact despite most of his points coming from the paint.


It's neither of those 2 things. He's surprisingly nimble for his size but the biggest reason he doesn't draw as many fouls is because his success relies heavily on lighting-quick decision making. If you watch film of Embiid/Jokic it's easy to verify Joel draws legitimate fouls at a much higher rate.


Legitimate is a stretch. I have zero problems with it, because it exists in the game and its fair to take advantage of it, but Embiid sells contact better most/any player in the league, and thats why he gets calls. Not because he 'legitimately gets fouled more
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Re: Article: We don't talk enough about Jokic's scoring 

Post#17 » by GeorgeMarcus » Tue Apr 5, 2022 11:42 pm

mademan wrote:
GeorgeMarcus wrote:
Cubbies2120 wrote:
? Jokic isn't top 10 in FTA, he could definitely improve his already insane efficiency by getting more fouls called like the other superstars.

Its either:
1. He's not getting officiated the same as other superstars
or
2. He's the most agile big man of all time, capable of avoiding contact despite most of his points coming from the paint.


It's neither of those 2 things. He's surprisingly nimble for his size but the biggest reason he doesn't draw as many fouls is because his success relies heavily on lighting-quick decision making. If you watch film of Embiid/Jokic it's easy to verify Joel draws legitimate fouls at a much higher rate.


Legitimate is a stretch. I have zero problems with it, because it exists in the game and its fair to take advantage of it, but Embiid sells contact better most/any player in the league, and thats why he gets calls. Not because he 'legitimately gets fouled more


Embiid's foul rate isn't because he sells fouls better than other players, it's because he legitimately draws more contact. A larger percentage of his offense relies on baiting contact-no doubt- but that doesn't illegitimize the results. Defenses are welcome to test his face up game and play more cautiously
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Re: Article: We don't talk enough about Jokic's scoring 

Post#18 » by GeorgeMarcus » Tue Apr 5, 2022 11:46 pm

Anyway, I'll drop the tired Jokic/Embiid comparison. Jokic is indeed a very good scorer in addition to his playmaking.
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Re: Article: We don't talk enough about Jokic's scoring 

Post#19 » by eyeatoma » Tue Apr 5, 2022 11:57 pm

Cubbies2120 wrote:
GeorgeMarcus wrote:
Cubbies2120 wrote:
Or if he was simply officiated like other MVP candidates instead of having to lose his cool against the refs, he could live at the line as well. I think we would see a 70+% TS season out of him if he averaged 11+ FTA instead of the 6(!) he does now.


It's a shame you gotta tarnish an otherwise valid OP with this flawed/thinly veiled commentary


? Jokic isn't top 10 in FTA, he could definitely improve his already insane efficiency by getting more fouls called like the other superstars.

Its either:
1. He's not getting officiated the same as other superstars
or
2. He's the most agile big man of all time, capable of avoiding contact despite most of his points coming from the paint.


Or the most logical answer. He doesn't draw the same amount of contact, and isn't as aggressive.
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Re: Article: We don't talk enough about Jokic's scoring 

Post#20 » by Cubbies2120 » Wed Apr 6, 2022 12:10 am

eyeatoma wrote:
Cubbies2120 wrote:
GeorgeMarcus wrote:
It's a shame you gotta tarnish an otherwise valid OP with this flawed/thinly veiled commentary


? Jokic isn't top 10 in FTA, he could definitely improve his already insane efficiency by getting more fouls called like the other superstars.

Its either:
1. He's not getting officiated the same as other superstars
or
2. He's the most agile big man of all time, capable of avoiding contact despite most of his points coming from the paint.


Or the most logical answer. He doesn't draw the same amount of contact, and isn't as aggressive.


Or he doesn't flop like a fish because he's 7 ft 260+ lbs and has the balance of an adult male :)
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