2021-22 NBA Season Discussion

[lordjeff05]

I know its a year away but given the implosion of the team, and the lack of assets going forward, what value does next year's swap rights for the Lakers pick have?

[eminence]

Was listening to the Dunc'd On pod on top-10 players and was rather shocked to hear that they still have KD on the same tier as Giannis with Kawhi just behind them and Jokic and Embiid in the lower part of the top 10. Moreover, their reasoning seems convoluted.

They penalize Jokic and Embiid particularly badly for their defense while saying nothing of that sort about KD despite the Nets being in the bottom third on defense for two straight seasons now. With Jokic in particular they repeatedly point to the Suns series as the example for his shortcomings on defense without acknowledging that the Nuggets have plain poor point of attack defenders. Lastly, what's most indefensible is that they have Kawhi in the top 3 despite not having played a single minute this season. Completely head scratching.

Would you mind sharing any lists they put together for those of us without podcast time?

[eminence]

I think there is some validity to the idea of defensive portability, especially today in the age where I think there'd be pretty serious issues trying to play 2 traditional bigs ala the Twin Towers Spurs (or the reverse problem the current Jazz face playing multiple very small guards).

In the case of Gobert and switching I think he'd quite fine in a switching scheme, though arguably less successful than in his drop. The only fulltime C I prefer clearly over Gobert in a switch is Bam.

[falcolombardi]

I think there is some validity to the idea of defensive portability, especially today in the age where I think there'd be pretty serious issues trying to play 2 traditional bigs ala the Twin Towers Spurs (or the reverse problem the current Jazz face playing multiple very small guards).

In the case of Gobert and switching I think he'd quite fine in a switching scheme, though arguably less successful than in his drop. The only fulltime C I prefer clearly over Gobert in a switch is Bam.

i dont think twin towers lineups defense is the issue but rather the offense

múltiple bigs lineups are usually as much of a defensive cheat code as small ball lineups are a offensive cheat code, even in the modern era we saw some of it this season with the cavs unexpected success when healthy or with giannis and brook López

if utah had a second gobert then their defense wouldnt die the second gobert (gobert 1?) has to step outside tge paint as the second big (gobert 2?) could drop back

i honestly think twin towers lineups where at least one is a roamer who offers rim protection too are gonna make a big comeback in the modern nba

3 point shooting centers alleviate most offensive issues of playing huge front courts

i truly think playing teams with multiple bigs so you still have rim protection when one of then is forced into the perimeter is the future counter of nba defenses

[eminence]

I think there is some validity to the idea of defensive portability, especially today in the age where I think there'd be pretty serious issues trying to play 2 traditional bigs ala the Twin Towers Spurs (or the reverse problem the current Jazz face playing multiple very small guards).

In the case of Gobert and switching I think he'd quite fine in a switching scheme, though arguably less successful than in his drop. The only fulltime C I prefer clearly over Gobert in a switch is Bam.

i dont think twin towers lineups defense is the issue but rather the offense

múltiple bigs lineups are usually as much of a defensive cheat code as small ball lineups are a offensive cheat code, even in the modern era we saw some of it this season with the cavs unexpected success when healthy or with giannis and brook López

if utah had a second gobert then their defense wouldnt die the second gobert (gobert 1?) has to step outside tge paint as the second big (gobert 2?) could drop back

i honestly think twin towers lineups where at least one is a roamer who offers rim protection too are gonna make a big comeback in the modern nba

3 point shooting centers alleviate most offensive issues of playing huge front courts

i truly think playing teams with multiple bigs so you still have rim protection when one of then is forced into the perimeter is the future counter of nba defenses

I didn't mean to say that the defense would be any sort of issue. But that I think the effectiveness is diminishing compared to then. There were always offensive/defensive trade offs, and today I think the balance slants towards 1 big in most cases.

Obviously in the actual Twin Towers situation if you can pair two top 20 players all-time you do it and then figure it out. But the Jazz probably shouldn't be looking to add Steven Adams to their rotation.

[falcolombardi]

I think there is some validity to the idea of defensive portability, especially today in the age where I think there'd be pretty serious issues trying to play 2 traditional bigs ala the Twin Towers Spurs (or the reverse problem the current Jazz face playing multiple very small guards).

In the case of Gobert and switching I think he'd quite fine in a switching scheme, though arguably less successful than in his drop. The only fulltime C I prefer clearly over Gobert in a switch is Bam.

i dont think twin towers lineups defense is the issue but rather the offense

múltiple bigs lineups are usually as much of a defensive cheat code as small ball lineups are a offensive cheat code, even in the modern era we saw some of it this season with the cavs unexpected success when healthy or with giannis and brook López

if utah had a second gobert then their defense wouldnt die the second gobert (gobert 1?) has to step outside tge paint as the second big (gobert 2?) could drop back

i honestly think twin towers lineups where at least one is a roamer who offers rim protection too are gonna make a big comeback in the modern nba

3 point shooting centers alleviate most offensive issues of playing huge front courts

i truly think playing teams with multiple bigs so you still have rim protection when one of then is forced into the perimeter is the future counter of nba defenses

I didn't mean to say that the defense would be any sort of issue. But that I think the effectiveness is diminishing compared to then. There were always offensive/defensive trade offs, and today I think the balance slants towards 1 big in most cases.

Obviously in the actual Twin Towers situation if you can pair two top 20 players all-time you do it and then figure it out. But the Jazz probably shouldn't be looking to add Steven Adams to their rotation.

the thingh with 2 big lineups is that the second rim protector is arguably even more valuable now, as today teams make everythingh possible to pull centers out of the paint with shooting or pick and rolls

while in offense if one of them can shot which is much more common now then it solves a lot of the offensive issues, like brook López in nilwaukee

ls a hot take but i honestly think 2 center lineups are the future, the cavs this year and bucks these last years show hints of it imo

ir wouldnt be even as odd as it sounds, nba meta has a way of being cyclical: remember that the death of ilegal defense rules "killed" iso heavy basketball in favor of pick and roll offense, then teams started switching pick and rolls and isolation made a comeback

[Peregrine01]

Was listening to the Dunc'd On pod on top-10 players and was rather shocked to hear that they still have KD on the same tier as Giannis with Kawhi just behind them and Jokic and Embiid in the lower part of the top 10. Moreover, their reasoning seems convoluted.

They penalize Jokic and Embiid particularly badly for their defense while saying nothing of that sort about KD despite the Nets being in the bottom third on defense for two straight seasons now. With Jokic in particular they repeatedly point to the Suns series as the example for his shortcomings on defense without acknowledging that the Nuggets have plain poor point of attack defenders. Lastly, what's most indefensible is that they have Kawhi in the top 3 despite not having played a single minute this season. Completely head scratching.

Would you mind sharing any lists they put together for those of us without podcast time?

Nate:

Tier 1:

Giannis
Kevin Durant

Tier 2:

3. Kawhi Leonard
4. Luka Doncic
5. Steph Curry

Tier 3:

6. Nikola Jokic
7. Joel Embiid
8. LeBron James

Tier 4:

9. Jayson Tatum
10. Paul George

Danny:

Tier 1:

Giannis
Kevin Durant

Tier 2:

3. Kawhi Leonard

Tier 3:

4. Luka Doncic
5. Stephen Curry
6. Nikola Jokic
7. Joel Embiid
8. LeBron James

Tier 4:

9. Trae Young
10. Jayson Tatum
11. Ja Morant

[eminence]

Nate:

Tier 1:

Giannis
Kevin Durant

Tier 2:

3. Kawhi Leonard
4. Luka Doncic
5. Steph Curry

Tier 3:

6. Nikola Jokic
7. Joel Embiid
8. LeBron James

Tier 4:

9. Jayson Tatum
10. Paul George

Danny:

Tier 1:

Giannis
Kevin Durant

Tier 2:

3. Kawhi Leonard

Tier 3:

4. Luka Doncic
5. Stephen Curry
6. Nikola Jokic
7. Joel Embiid
8. LeBron James

Tier 4:

9. Trae Young
10. Jayson Tatum
11. Ja Morant

Mmkay, first I have to put up a list to open myself to similar criticism. Criteria - kind of a going into next season list?

Tier 1 (solid arguments for best player in the game):
Giannis
Jokic

Tier 2 (weaker arguments, but still obviously great players, some health issues for all that the top 2 don't really have):
Embiid
Steph
KD

Tier 3 (great players, have a hard time seeing any argument they're the best in the game barring a clear leap - possible for the younger guys):
Tatum
Luka
Kawhi (this is projecting pretty good health)
Gobert
Towns
George (if knocking Kawhi further due to health concerns)

First things, wow their lists are remarkably similar, agree on the top 8 and 9 total of the top 10.

The first takeaway is the lowness on the MVP caliber bigs (Jokic/Embiid) and how high they are on the scoring perimeter guys (Luka/KD/Kawhi, though not particularly high on Tatum, unsure why).

My second takeaway is that folks are fairly optimistic about old man LeBron, though this seems to be more me being low than them being high. He'd probably make my top 15-20, but in the last 4 seasons he had a great '20 (arguably #1). A decent '21, but probably only back end top 10, and then a pair of seasons '19/'22 probably outside the top 20.

I don't think Ja/Trae are crazy inclusions at the very end, I considered them.

Did they mention Towns/Gobert at all in their discussions, or did the lowness on bigs stay consistent here too?

[Peregrine01]

Nate:

Tier 1:

Giannis
Kevin Durant

Tier 2:

3. Kawhi Leonard
4. Luka Doncic
5. Steph Curry

Tier 3:

6. Nikola Jokic
7. Joel Embiid
8. LeBron James

Tier 4:

9. Jayson Tatum
10. Paul George

Danny:

Tier 1:

Giannis
Kevin Durant

Tier 2:

3. Kawhi Leonard

Tier 3:

4. Luka Doncic
5. Stephen Curry
6. Nikola Jokic
7. Joel Embiid
8. LeBron James

Tier 4:

9. Trae Young
10. Jayson Tatum
11. Ja Morant

Mmkay, first I have to put up a list to open myself to similar criticism. Criteria - kind of a going into next season list?

Tier 1 (solid arguments for best player in the game):
Giannis
Jokic

Tier 2 (weaker arguments, but still obviously great players, some health issues for all that the top 2 don't really have):
Embiid
Steph
KD

Tier 3 (great players, have a hard time seeing any argument they're the best in the game barring a clear leap - possible for the younger guys):
Tatum
Luka
Kawhi (this is projecting pretty good health)
Gobert
Towns
George (if knocking Kawhi further due to health concerns)

First things, wow their lists are remarkably similar, agree on the top 8 and 9 total of the top 10.

The first takeaway is the lowness on the MVP caliber bigs (Jokic/Embiid) and how high they are on the scoring perimeter guys (Luka/KD/Kawhi, though not particularly high on Tatum, unsure why).

My second takeaway is that folks are fairly optimistic about old man LeBron, though this seems to be more me being low than them being high. He'd probably make my top 15-20, but in the last 4 seasons he had a great '20 (arguably #1). A decent '21, but probably only back end top 10, and then a pair of seasons '19/'22 probably outside the top 20.

I don't think Ja/Trae are crazy inclusions at the very end, I considered them.

Did they mention Towns/Gobert at all in their discussions, or did the lowness on bigs stay consistent here too?

I didn't get through the whole pod but they didn't include Towns or Gobert in any of the honorable mentions and instead had guys like Booker, George, Dame, Ja and Trae.

Definitely an odd list given 3 of the names on their lists have barely even played this year. I also suppose groupthink is a reason why their lists look so similar. They base their choices on who they think would be the most robust in the playoffs, leading to higher chances of winning a championship and assumes everyone will be completely healthy. Well, for one, that's a fanciful assumption to make. And second, I think they have some pretty strong biases and they're not applying the same standards to each player.

For the record, my top 10 looks a lot like yours with the top five pretty much exactly the same. Main difference I have is that I just can't include guys who've missed more than half the season.

T1:
Giannis
Jokic

T2:
KD
Curry
Embiid

T3:
Tatum
Booker
Trae
Luka
Gobert
Towns

[falcolombardi]

Nate:

Tier 1:

Giannis
Kevin Durant

Tier 2:

3. Kawhi Leonard
4. Luka Doncic
5. Steph Curry

Tier 3:

6. Nikola Jokic
7. Joel Embiid
8. LeBron James

Tier 4:

9. Jayson Tatum
10. Paul George

Danny:

Tier 1:

Giannis
Kevin Durant

Tier 2:

3. Kawhi Leonard

Tier 3:

4. Luka Doncic
5. Stephen Curry
6. Nikola Jokic
7. Joel Embiid
8. LeBron James

Tier 4:

9. Trae Young
10. Jayson Tatum
11. Ja Morant

Mmkay, first I have to put up a list to open myself to similar criticism. Criteria - kind of a going into next season list?

Tier 1 (solid arguments for best player in the game):
Giannis
Jokic

Tier 2 (weaker arguments, but still obviously great players, some health issues for all that the top 2 don't really have):
Embiid
Steph
KD

Tier 3 (great players, have a hard time seeing any argument they're the best in the game barring a clear leap - possible for the younger guys):
Tatum
Luka
Kawhi (this is projecting pretty good health)
Gobert
Towns
George (if knocking Kawhi further due to health concerns)

First things, wow their lists are remarkably similar, agree on the top 8 and 9 total of the top 10.

The first takeaway is the lowness on the MVP caliber bigs (Jokic/Embiid) and how high they are on the scoring perimeter guys (Luka/KD/Kawhi, though not particularly high on Tatum, unsure why).

My second takeaway is that folks are fairly optimistic about old man LeBron, though this seems to be more me being low than them being high. He'd probably make my top 15-20, but in the last 4 seasons he had a great '20 (arguably #1). A decent '21, but probably only back end top 10, and then a pair of seasons '19/'22 probably outside the top 20.

I don't think Ja/Trae are crazy inclusions at the very end, I considered them.

Did they mention Towns/Gobert at all in their discussions, or did the lowness on bigs stay consistent here too?

I didn't get through the whole pod but they didn't include Towns or Gobert in any of the honorable mentions and instead had guys like Booker, George, Dame, Ja and Trae.

Definitely an odd list given 3 of the names on their lists have barely even played this year. I also suppose groupthink is a reason why their lists look so similar. They base their choices on who they think would be the most robust in the playoffs, leading to higher chances of winning a championship and assumes everyone will be completely healthy. Well, for one, that's a fanciful assumption to make. And second, I think they have some pretty strong biases and they're not applying the same standards to each player.

For the record, my top 10 looks a lot like yours with the top five pretty much exactly the same. Main difference I have is that I just can't include guys who've missed more than half the season.

T1:
Giannis
Jokic

T2:
KD
Curry
Embiid

T3:
Tatum
Booker
Trae
Luka
Gobert
Towns

i think tatum and luka belong either in tier 2 (or in tier 2B below the other 3) or in a tier 3 of their own over the other guys in a tier 4

[LukaTheGOAT]

Luka Doncic vs Top 10 Defenses This Season

• 31.3 PPG
• 9.6 RPG
• 8.1 APG
• 59.5 TS%
• +61

It's going to be scary hours for some of your fave teams soon.

[falcolombardi]

Luka Doncic vs Top 10 Defenses This Season

• 31.3 PPG
• 9.6 RPG
• 8.1 APG
• 59.5 TS%
• +61

It's going to be scary hours for some of your fave teams soon.

very impressive but the efficiency is somewhat low

still has room to grow into a more efficient scorer

[GSP]

Was listening to the Dunc'd On pod on top-10 players and was rather shocked to hear that they still have KD on the same tier as Giannis with Kawhi just behind them and Jokic and Embiid in the lower part of the top 10. Moreover, their reasoning seems convoluted.

They penalize Jokic and Embiid particularly badly for their defense while saying nothing of that sort about KD despite the Nets being in the bottom third on defense for two straight seasons now. With Jokic in particular they repeatedly point to the Suns series as the example for his shortcomings on defense without acknowledging that the Nuggets have plain poor point of attack defenders. Lastly, what's most indefensible is that they have Kawhi in the top 3 despite not having played a single minute this season. Completely head scratching.

Would you mind sharing any lists they put together for those of us without podcast time?

Nate:

Tier 1:

Giannis
Kevin Durant

Tier 2:

3. Kawhi Leonard
4. Luka Doncic
5. Steph Curry

Tier 3:

6. Nikola Jokic
7. Joel Embiid
8. LeBron James

Tier 4:

9. Jayson Tatum
10. Paul George

Danny:

Tier 1:

Giannis
Kevin Durant

Tier 2:

3. Kawhi Leonard

Tier 3:

4. Luka Doncic
5. Stephen Curry
6. Nikola Jokic
7. Joel Embiid
8. LeBron James

Tier 4:

9. Trae Young
10. Jayson Tatum
11. Ja Morant

Its stunning how quickly the perception of Giannis as a playoff performer flipped. Since Miami got rekt ppl forget they held Giannis in check again they just couldnt miss from 3. Giannis shot like 49ts that series on relatively low volume PPG. Teams with a stout and agile post defender that can keep up with his feet and dribble like Bam can still give him fits and Miami is still a bad matchup for him Spo schemes him as well as anyone. Okongwu was also giving him problems in limited mins.

Brooklyns defense is ass. Suns didnt have the personell for him and Monty decided to play him straight up and not wall him for some strange reason. They had no bigs behind Ayton last year. Kaminsky was ass and Saric tore his Acl. Giannis had a much harder time with this better, deeper improved Suns. Got shut down bad one time and then fouled out early in the next one. Last regular season a different story they had no answer for him. IIRC he scored his season high on them.

Not to say Giannis is a bad playoff performer but I dunno if hes better than Jokic..... I dont think most wouldve said that before last year so if its a REAL improvement in Giannis game we're gonna see him dominate these playoffs but if he flames out and gets schemed again........

[tone wone]

Its stunning how quickly the perception of Giannis as a playoff performer flipped. Since Miami got rekt ppl forget they held Giannis in check again they just couldnt miss from 3. Giannis shot like 49ts that series on relatively low volume PPG. Teams with a stout and agile post defender that can keep up with his feet and dribble like Bam can still give him fits and Miami is still a bad matchup for him Spo schemes him as well as anyone. Okongwu was also giving him problems in limited mins.

Brooklyns defense is ass. Suns didnt have the personell for him and Monty decided to play him straight up and not wall him for some strange reason. They had no bigs behind Ayton last year. Kaminsky was ass and Saric tore his Acl. Giannis had a much harder time with this better, deeper improved Suns. Got shut down bad one time and then fouled out early in the next one. Last regular season a different story they had no answer for him. IIRC he scored his season high on them.

Not to say Giannis is a bad playoff performer but I dunno if hes better than Jokic..... I dont think most wouldve said that before last year so if its a REAL improvement in Giannis game we're gonna see him dominate these playoffs but if he flames out and gets schemed again........

MIL had a 117.2 ofrtg and won by 20.5 ppg. Like, yes Miami slowed him down and still got torched.

The passing improvement is real. Being able to toggle between on-ball initiator and off-ball finisher makes his attacks less predicable and thus harder too load up on. He's not perfect but the narrative of him being this weak, flawed postseason anchor is based on 1.him struggling against the best playoff defense of the last decade in '19 and 2.Milwaukee getting upset by Miami in '20...a series he didnt really even struggle to score in

[70sFan]

Well, the problem is that you would never use the same logic in inverse situation. For example, I could say that someone like Gasol could play on offense more like Jokic but he was forced to spend more energy on defense. What would be your reaction? Probably that Gasol wasn't skilled enough to do what Jokic does. Which would be true, but then why don't we use the same argumentation for Jokic's defense?

Despite the narrative, defense isn't only about effort. There is a certain level which only the absolute elite defenders can reach as far as defensive IQ and anticipation goes. It doesn't always go with offensive IQ, so you can't simply say that Jokic is smart enough. Besides, Jokic simply doesn't have Gasol's physical tools. Marc was bigger, longer and quicker on his feet.

Some of the greatest defenders ever (Hakeem, Duncan, Robinson, Wilt, even Giannis) carried absurd offensive load and it didn't stop them from being ATG defenders. Until we see any evidence, I can't give Jokic the benefit of doubt and compare him to one of the best defenders of the last decade only because they look similar.

I think he and Denver are optimizing his effort for where it's most impactful, which in this case is quite clearly offense.

Agreed that it's not just about effort. I also think that it's hard to construct great defenses when you don't have good defensive teammates...even KG played on middling defenses throughout his prime. So I find it hard to fault Jokic for this team's defensive shortcomings when he isn't playing with any good defenders.

Mind you, I'm not comparing him to any of the ATG defenders you mentioned since they have plain physical qualities that Jokic lacks. I'm comparing him to Marc Gasol who has quite similar physical attributes and wondering to myself why can't he do something similar as well? Unfortunately I suspect Jokic will never have a defensive supporting cast like Marc had with the Grizz and Raps.

Well, you should realize that I don't blame Jokic for lack of Nuggets defensive success - that would be completely unreasonable. As you said, even great defenders can play on crap defensive teams, that's not the problem. The problem is that Jokic never showed defense on Gasol's level, so I see no reason to say he could do that in different environment. As I said, maybe Gasol would do the same thing as Jokic in 2022 Nuggets offensive scheme, right?

Lastly, Jokic doesn't have similar physical attributes to Gasol. Gasol was bigger, longer and quicker on his feet. I know people like comparing big white centers to themselves, but Marc was more gifted than Jokic in terms of physicality and athelticism. The only thing they have in common are quick hands and Jokic actually has the edge here.

Even with the same physical profile, you need more than that on defensive end. You could say that Pau Gasol also had similar physical attributes to Marc and he was actually more athletc in his youth but he never reached that level either and we're talking about extremely smart basketball player.

[LukaTheGOAT]

Nate:

Tier 1:

Giannis
Kevin Durant

Tier 2:

3. Kawhi Leonard
4. Luka Doncic
5. Steph Curry

Tier 3:

6. Nikola Jokic
7. Joel Embiid
8. LeBron James

Tier 4:

9. Jayson Tatum
10. Paul George

Danny:

Tier 1:

Giannis
Kevin Durant

Tier 2:

3. Kawhi Leonard

Tier 3:

4. Luka Doncic
5. Stephen Curry
6. Nikola Jokic
7. Joel Embiid
8. LeBron James

Tier 4:

9. Trae Young
10. Jayson Tatum
11. Ja Morant

Mmkay, first I have to put up a list to open myself to similar criticism. Criteria - kind of a going into next season list?

Tier 1 (solid arguments for best player in the game):
Giannis
Jokic

Tier 2 (weaker arguments, but still obviously great players, some health issues for all that the top 2 don't really have):
Embiid
Steph
KD

Tier 3 (great players, have a hard time seeing any argument they're the best in the game barring a clear leap - possible for the younger guys):
Tatum
Luka
Kawhi (this is projecting pretty good health)
Gobert
Towns
George (if knocking Kawhi further due to health concerns)

First things, wow their lists are remarkably similar, agree on the top 8 and 9 total of the top 10.

The first takeaway is the lowness on the MVP caliber bigs (Jokic/Embiid) and how high they are on the scoring perimeter guys (Luka/KD/Kawhi, though not particularly high on Tatum, unsure why).

My second takeaway is that folks are fairly optimistic about old man LeBron, though this seems to be more me being low than them being high. He'd probably make my top 15-20, but in the last 4 seasons he had a great '20 (arguably #1). A decent '21, but probably only back end top 10, and then a pair of seasons '19/'22 probably outside the top 20.

I don't think Ja/Trae are crazy inclusions at the very end, I considered them.

Did they mention Towns/Gobert at all in their discussions, or did the lowness on bigs stay consistent here too?

So you think Lebron went from being outside the top 20 in 2019 to arguably being #1 in 2020? As in you believe he improved that significantly as a player from 19 to 20, at the age of 34/35?

[feyki]

Nate:

Tier 1:

Giannis
Kevin Durant

Tier 2:

3. Kawhi Leonard
4. Luka Doncic
5. Steph Curry

Tier 3:

6. Nikola Jokic
7. Joel Embiid
8. LeBron James

Tier 4:

9. Jayson Tatum
10. Paul George

Danny:

Tier 1:

Giannis
Kevin Durant

Tier 2:

3. Kawhi Leonard

Tier 3:

4. Luka Doncic
5. Stephen Curry
6. Nikola Jokic
7. Joel Embiid
8. LeBron James

Tier 4:

9. Trae Young
10. Jayson Tatum
11. Ja Morant

Mmkay, first I have to put up a list to open myself to similar criticism. Criteria - kind of a going into next season list?

Tier 1 (solid arguments for best player in the game):
Giannis
Jokic

Tier 2 (weaker arguments, but still obviously great players, some health issues for all that the top 2 don't really have):
Embiid
Steph
KD

Tier 3 (great players, have a hard time seeing any argument they're the best in the game barring a clear leap - possible for the younger guys):
Tatum
Luka
Kawhi (this is projecting pretty good health)
Gobert
Towns
George (if knocking Kawhi further due to health concerns)

First things, wow their lists are remarkably similar, agree on the top 8 and 9 total of the top 10.

The first takeaway is the lowness on the MVP caliber bigs (Jokic/Embiid) and how high they are on the scoring perimeter guys (Luka/KD/Kawhi, though not particularly high on Tatum, unsure why).

My second takeaway is that folks are fairly optimistic about old man LeBron, though this seems to be more me being low than them being high. He'd probably make my top 15-20, but in the last 4 seasons he had a great '20 (arguably #1). A decent '21, but probably only back end top 10, and then a pair of seasons '19/'22 probably outside the top 20.

I don't think Ja/Trae are crazy inclusions at the very end, I considered them.

Did they mention Towns/Gobert at all in their discussions, or did the lowness on bigs stay consistent here too?

So you think Lebron went from being outside the top 20 in 2019 to arguably being #1 in 2020? As in you believe he improved that significantly as a player from 19 to 20, at the age of 34/35?

Same also could be said with AD and Lebron after 2020. It's mostly about health. Both aged Lebron and Davis have health issues, which Lebron's normal due to age.

[LukaTheGOAT]

Mmkay, first I have to put up a list to open myself to similar criticism. Criteria - kind of a going into next season list?

Tier 1 (solid arguments for best player in the game):
Giannis
Jokic

Tier 2 (weaker arguments, but still obviously great players, some health issues for all that the top 2 don't really have):
Embiid
Steph
KD

Tier 3 (great players, have a hard time seeing any argument they're the best in the game barring a clear leap - possible for the younger guys):
Tatum
Luka
Kawhi (this is projecting pretty good health)
Gobert
Towns
George (if knocking Kawhi further due to health concerns)

First things, wow their lists are remarkably similar, agree on the top 8 and 9 total of the top 10.

The first takeaway is the lowness on the MVP caliber bigs (Jokic/Embiid) and how high they are on the scoring perimeter guys (Luka/KD/Kawhi, though not particularly high on Tatum, unsure why).

My second takeaway is that folks are fairly optimistic about old man LeBron, though this seems to be more me being low than them being high. He'd probably make my top 15-20, but in the last 4 seasons he had a great '20 (arguably #1). A decent '21, but probably only back end top 10, and then a pair of seasons '19/'22 probably outside the top 20.

I don't think Ja/Trae are crazy inclusions at the very end, I considered them.

Did they mention Towns/Gobert at all in their discussions, or did the lowness on bigs stay consistent here too?

So you think Lebron went from being outside the top 20 in 2019 to arguably being #1 in 2020? As in you believe he improved that significantly as a player from 19 to 20, at the age of 34/35?

Same also could be said with AD and Lebron after 2020. It's mostly about health. Both aged Lebron and Davis have health issues, which Lebron's normal due to age.

Right but he has KD, Kawhi and Paul George who both have played less games than Lebron on the list, so it isn't just exclusively about health with his list. That is kind of why I am curious to see if he believes Lebron made leaps as a player from the 19 season to the 20 season because that seems like an extreme jump to make at his age.

[The High Cyde]

I’d still take Bron over KD and Curry. Maybe even Embiid, without those bogus FTs I doubt he’s as valuable in totality. The whole league sees it. James still put up an astounding offensive campaign this year, with a little bit of defense or even slightly competent two way players on the roster he’d be right up there as a MVP candidate.

This season, only players clearly ahead are Giannis and Jokic. Maybe Luka and Tatum. Give Bron their rosters and I’m pretty sure he’s knocking on the door for another finals berth.

Kawhi and Paul George lol no, one hasn’t played in a year and the other was out for like 75% of the season. Terrible choices honestly. Maybe next year sure.

[feyki]

So you think Lebron went from being outside the top 20 in 2019 to arguably being #1 in 2020? As in you believe he improved that significantly as a player from 19 to 20, at the age of 34/35?

Same also could be said with AD and Lebron after 2020. It's mostly about health. Both aged Lebron and Davis have health issues, which Lebron's normal due to age.

Right but he has KD, Kawhi and Paul George who both have played less games than Lebron on the list, so it isn't just exclusively about health with his list. That is kind of why I am curious to see if he believes Lebron made leaps as a player from the 19 season to the 20 season because that seems like an extreme jump to make at his age.

Don't think 20 and 19 Lebron in the seasons were much different than each other when he was healthy. But Playoffs is a place to play with more minutes more numbers and more impacts. Lebron with a healthy enterance to the Playoffs is the reason where 20 and 19 Lebron seperates.