Who is the Defensive Player of the Year?

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Who would you vote for as DPOY?

Marcus Smart (Boston)
51
17%
Bam Adebayo (Miami)
50
16%
Mikal Bridges (Phoenix)
54
18%
Rudy Gobert (Utah)
51
17%
Giannis Antetokounmpo (Milwaukee)
42
14%
Jaren Jackson Jr. (Memphis)
21
7%
Robert Williams (Boston)
14
5%
Draymond Green (Golden State)
9
3%
Evan Mobley (Cleveland)
5
2%
Other
8
3%
 
Total votes: 305

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Re: Who is the Defensive Player of the Year? 

Post#61 » by greg4012 » Thu Apr 7, 2022 7:58 pm

Patsfan1081 wrote:
greg4012 wrote:For most, the idea of guarding 1-5 is a narrative pumped up by anecdotal moments. For Bam, it's really true.

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Spoiler:
Defensive Player of the Year
1. Bam Adebayo, Heat
2. Marcus Smart, Celtics
3. Mikal Bridges, Suns

The first thing that jumps out is the name that isn’t there. Rudy Gobert ranks at or near the top of the NBA in blocks, defensive rebounding, and contested shots. He’s holding opponents to 50 percent shooting at the rim—sixth best out of 259 players to face at least 100 up-close shots, according to Second Spectrum. And while the Jazz’s defense on the whole has dropped from first last season to 11th this season, that’s been more about how much things fall apart when he’s not around.

But while Gobert remains excellent, the blah overall nature of Utah’s season felt like an occasion to open the door to some new blood—and, with it, a consideration of different types of defensive value in 2022.

Reasonable people can differ on which perimeter defender is the NBA’s best, but Bridges belongs on any short list. I’m not sure anybody in the league equals his ability to battle top offensive threats (he ranks 13th out of 260 players to log at least 1,000 minutes in average defensive matchup difficulty, according to The BBall Index’s defensive charting) and the availability to do it night after night (he leads the NBA in total minutes and is on pace to play in every game for the fourth consecutive season). His brilliance lies not in the traditional statistical markers of defensive success, but rather in the stuff that never makes its way to the stat sheet.

Bridges’s talent for tirelessly chasing the game’s best shooters and scorers all over the court, denying the ball, and plugging up passing lanes with his 7-foot-1 wingspan allows Phoenix’s bigs to focus on dropping back to smother the paint. His ability to slither around screens and stay connected to his man helps keep those bigs out of the kind of danger that can come with having to deal with both a driver and a roller barreling downhill at them. It allows aging genius Paul to roam off the ball, forever looming and ready to wreak havoc on the weak side of the action. It simplifies everybody’s else’s responsibilities and lets them just lock in on a smaller portion of the game plan with confidence that the other team’s no. 1 option is taken care of. Having an answer for the scariest perimeter question makes Monty Williams’s life a lot easier; it also makes Bridges the linchpin of the NBA’s no. 2 defense and worth every penny of the $90 million extension he got before the season.

Like Bridges, Smart operates as one of the NBA’s top perimeter stoppers; unlike Bridges, his impact is anything but quiet.

The 28-year-old is forever flying all over the floor in hot pursuit of another possession. Beyond the chaos he creates, Smart’s greatest value might lie in how his strength, length, intelligence, and tenacity allows him to guard players at all five positions; that enables the Celtics to both switch screens more often and allow fewer points per chance on switches than any other team in the NBA this season, according to Second Spectrum’s tracking data, a huge reason why Boston boasts the league’s stingiest defense.

There’s plenty of credit to go around in Boston: the emergence of spring-heeled big man Williams, the presence of a pair of excellent big wing defenders in Tatum and Jaylen Brown, the resurgence of Al Horford in his second tour of duty, the arrival of perfect-fit guard Derrick White, etc. All of it, though, traces back to the “stretch 6” who can not only bang with opposing bigs, but actually bully them.

Smart and Bridges recently made their DPOY cases by emphasizing the different and, to their way of thinking, tougher challenges that premier perimeter defenders face, such as staying in front of the league’s toughest covers and keeping them from getting to their preferred spots in the first place. Gobert and Embiid (another legitimate candidate for this award) made theirs by highlighting the global impact of a great defensive center—the back-line captains who see the whole floor, who call out the coverages, who dissuade drivers from even attempting a shot.

In presenting their arguments, though, they inadvertently made one for Adebayo—the player who does all of that better than anybody else in the league.

Miami ranks fourth in defensive efficiency this season, behind Boston and Phoenix, but the Heat crank it up when Bam mans the middle, with a mark nearly two points per 100 stingier than the Celtics overall. Crucially, though, Bam doesn’t stay in the middle: No screen defender switches onto ball handlers more often than he does, according to Second Spectrum, and few stonewall them more effectively.

Bright-eyed ball handlers who draw Adebayo and think, “OK, I’ve got a center, that’s a mismatch,” quickly find themselves disabused of that notion: He allows just 0.9 points per chance after those switches, 10th fewest of 181 players to log at least 200 switches. And trying to take him one-on-one is worse: He’s giving up just 0.74 points per isolation, according to NBA.com/Stats, 12th lowest among 112 players to defend at least 50 isos.

He handles his business without giving up the store inside, too: With him on the floor, Miami clears the defensive glass at a league-best level and prevents at-rim attempts at a top-10 rate. He can slide into the zones that Erik Spoelstra loves to deploy to short-circuit offenses, sink in a more traditional drop pick-and-roll coverage if the opponent calls for it, deny passes into the post against bigger and burlier threats, hedge at the 3-point arc or blitz the screen—you name it, he can do it.

The one knock on Bam’s case is missed games. Because of a torn thumb ligament earlier this season, he’ll wind up with fewer than 60 games and 2,000 minutes played. It doesn’t necessarily have to be disqualifying, though: Gobert’s first DPOY came in 2017-18, a season that saw him come in beneath those marks, too. In the absence of a no-doubt-about-it alternative, I feel OK going with a switch-everything swingman the size of Karl Malone, a legit shot blocker and paint patroller faster than most point guards—a dude who looks like the next evolution of NBA defense, and whose play will go a long way toward determining whether Miami can make their second Finals run in three seasons.


https://www.theringer.com/nba/2022/4/7/23014604/nba-awards-mvp-giannis-antetokounmpo-nikola-jokic-joel-embiid


How is that possible? Do the heat play zone 100% of the time? There’s no way teams could be switching that amount vs them. They would have to be running the pick n roll 100% of the time.


The Heat NEVER try to get out of a switch onto Bam. It is a desired result for a defensive possession whether it's a PG, wing or center that Bam ends up on.

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I recommend this article for stats and context on Bam's case: https://www.nba.com/heat/everything-everywhere-bam-adebayo-defensive-player-year

Like their center, Miami’s scheme is not passive. They switch the second-most screens in the league, behind Boston, at 29 switches per 100 possessions. When Adebayo is on the floor, that number skyrockets to 40.4 per 100. That’s more than even the 2019-20 Houston Rockets, at 34.8, when P.J. Tucker was on the floor after they traded away their lone center in Clint Capela. Nobody has switched more than Adebayo’s 561 screens this season, and he does it better than anyone. With a nod to Miami’s stocked barracks of strong positional defenders – Tucker, Jimmy Butler, Kyle Lowry, Caleb Martin, Gabe Vincent – the HEAT only allow 0.87 points-per-possession when Adebayo switches. Not per pick-and-roll, that number, per Second Spectrum player tracking, encompasses the entirety of any possession containing an Adebayo switch.
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Re: Who is the Defensive Player of the Year? 

Post#62 » by Kobe187 » Thu Apr 7, 2022 8:44 pm

UcanUwill wrote:
Kobe187 wrote:Really close, Giannis probably gets it.

Has anyone ever won the scoring tittle, MVP & DPOY in the same season!? That would be insane if Giannis could do it!


That would definitely be insane. Still an average FIBA player, I kid guys, I kid...


Just googled it out of Curiosity.. only player to ever do it is Michael Jordan, it would grant Giannis legend status if he somehow pulled it off, he likely won’t get the triple crown but will finish top 3 in all 3 categories.

From google..

MJ was the best on both ends of the court in 1987–88, the only player in history to win Defensive POY along with the scoring title. He also won both the NBA MVP and All Star Game MVP as well as the dunk contest.
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Re: Who is the Defensive Player of the Year? 

Post#63 » by Triple M » Thu Apr 7, 2022 9:20 pm

Kobe187 wrote:Really close, Giannis probably gets it.

Has anyone ever won the scoring tittle, MVP & DPOY in the same season!? That would be insane if Giannis could do it!


MJ did it in back to back year's

86-87
87-88
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Re: Who is the Defensive Player of the Year? 

Post#64 » by NZB2323 » Thu Apr 7, 2022 9:23 pm

I’m surprised Bam has the 2nd best odds; he’s only played in 55 games.

I know people probably have voter fatigue and it’s boring but I think Gobert should win the award. So much of defense is playing as a team and compare the other defensive players on the Jazz to the other defensive players on these other teams.
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Re: Who is the Defensive Player of the Year? 

Post#65 » by Antinomy » Thu Apr 7, 2022 9:31 pm

I don’t think anybody in the league moves as well as Bam does for his size.

With that being said, I’m picking Giannis. He anchored a defense that started Portis & Grayson Allen while playing out of position nearly the entire year.
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Re: Who is the Defensive Player of the Year? 

Post#66 » by Texas Chuck » Thu Apr 7, 2022 10:00 pm

Patsfan1081 wrote:Would like to see someone other than a big man win.


Better imo would be having 2 awards. Because perimeter players simply can't have the impact of defensive anchors. So give them their own award.

Don't punish the bigs because of fatigue.
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Re: Who is the Defensive Player of the Year? 

Post#67 » by dhsilv2 » Thu Apr 7, 2022 10:20 pm

Should be Gobert but I'm also sure it won't be.

I did find it interesting that two boston players are getting so much love (I get why) but the one with the best stats when I did a bit of spot checking, Al Horford, isn't one of the 2.
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Re: Who is the Defensive Player of the Year? 

Post#68 » by Rapsin6 » Thu Apr 7, 2022 11:47 pm

Team’s looking good and organized. Fred sucks confirmed.
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Re: Who is the Defensive Player of the Year? 

Post#69 » by GregOden » Thu Apr 7, 2022 11:49 pm

Smart for taking out Steph Curry. Best defense play of the year so far.
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Re: Who is the Defensive Player of the Year? 

Post#70 » by greg4012 » Sat Apr 9, 2022 5:39 pm

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Re: Who is the Defensive Player of the Year? 

Post#71 » by Cubbies2120 » Sat Apr 9, 2022 5:42 pm

Triple M wrote:
Kobe187 wrote:Really close, Giannis probably gets it.

Has anyone ever won the scoring tittle, MVP & DPOY in the same season!? That would be insane if Giannis could do it!


MJ did it in back to back year's

86-87
87-88


Jordan only won DPOY once ('88)
Jokic 5x MVP train
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Re: Who is the Defensive Player of the Year? 

Post#72 » by Triple M » Sat Apr 9, 2022 5:50 pm

Cubbies2120 wrote:
Triple M wrote:
Kobe187 wrote:Really close, Giannis probably gets it.

Has anyone ever won the scoring tittle, MVP & DPOY in the same season!? That would be insane if Giannis could do it!


MJ did it in back to back year's

86-87
87-88


Jordan only won DPOY once ('88)


Yeah u are right, I don't know how I missed that
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Re: Who is the Defensive Player of the Year? 

Post#73 » by IceColdCubano » Sat Apr 9, 2022 5:52 pm

Based on what I’m hearing from those with votes Bam’s name is said the most.
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Re: Who is the Defensive Player of the Year? 

Post#74 » by C3H6N6O6 » Sat Apr 9, 2022 6:18 pm

Rudy Gobert should be the obvious choice but he isn't going to get it because of reasons I can not understand.
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Re: Who is the Defensive Player of the Year? 

Post#75 » by BK_2020 » Sat Apr 9, 2022 6:33 pm

Smart is the fourth most impactful defender on the Celtics after Tatum, RW3 and Horford.
It should be Gobert or Giannis.

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Re: Who is the Defensive Player of the Year? 

Post#76 » by Doctor MJ » Sat Apr 9, 2022 6:49 pm

Sothron wrote:Can we see some actual defensive stats? My inclination is to vote for RW3 on Boston not Smart.


So, what I see on the Celtics is that the +/- data doesn't actually clearly point in any particular direction. First and foremost, the Celtics success is about the Celtics success with 5-man units doing remarkable work together.

I haven't decided on my own pick here but I will say:

Marcus Smart seems to be the guy to single out for the Celtics for 3 reasons:

1. He's clearly elite in the defensive role(s) he plays.
2. He's the guy known for being the defensive floor general of the team, telling and teaching others how to play. This is something that does not entirely get counted in +/-, and the classic box score misses it entirely.
3. He's the guy that the other Celtics are championing.

Anyone voting for Timelord I get it and am not going to say you're wrong, but to side with him over Smart I was really wanting to see him stand out as the clear cut impact-guy among the team, and it's just not that obvious to me.

As I say all this: Timelord clearly seems to be the guy the Celtics will be building their defense around going forward, and thus likely the DPOY in subsequent years which may make a Smart DPOY this year look particularly silly...but just among the Celtics, Smart doesn't seem like an unreasonable pick here.

And from there it will be a question if anyone can top my top Celtic. I think the arguments for Bam are great, but this missed time is an issue.
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Re: Who is the Defensive Player of the Year? 

Post#77 » by TheLand13 » Sat Apr 9, 2022 6:52 pm

Kobe187 wrote:Really close, Giannis probably gets it.

Has anyone ever won the scoring tittle, MVP & DPOY in the same season!? That would be insane if Giannis could do it!


I think Michael Jordan did it in 88
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Re: Who is the Defensive Player of the Year? 

Post#78 » by celticfan42487 » Sat Apr 9, 2022 7:00 pm

Doctor MJ wrote:
Sothron wrote:Can we see some actual defensive stats? My inclination is to vote for RW3 on Boston not Smart.


So, what I see on the Celtics is that the +/- data doesn't actually clearly point in any particular direction. First and foremost, the Celtics success is about the Celtics success with 5-man units doing remarkable work together.

I haven't decided on my own pick here but I will say:

Marcus Smart seems to be the guy to single out for the Celtics for 3 reasons:

1. He's clearly elite in the defensive role(s) he plays.
2. He's the guy known for being the defensive floor general of the team, telling and teaching others how to play. This is something that does not entirely get counted in +/-, and the classic box score misses it entirely.
3. He's the guy that the other Celtics are championing.

Anyone voting for Timelord I get it and am not going to say you're wrong, but to side with him over Smart I was really wanting to see him stand out as the clear cut impact-guy among the team, and it's just not that obvious to me.

As I say all this: Timelord clearly seems to be the guy the Celtics will be building their defense around going forward, and thus likely the DPOY in subsequent years which may make a Smart DPOY this year look particularly silly...but just among the Celtics, Smart doesn't seem like an unreasonable pick here.

And from there it will be a question if anyone can top my top Celtic. I think the arguments for Bam are great, but this missed time is an issue.


It does, in a very extreme and strong direction. It's just the direction of Smart's impact on defense isn't anywhere near Rob Williams.

Which matches up with the eye test as well. Elite rim protection and rebounding is just more important than what Smart brings to that side of the floor.

The Celtics opponents offensive rating is -1.5 with Smart on the court, but -3.7 with Rob on/off the court. And that's on a team that can slide Horford who is a high quality defensive big in Rob's spot when he sits.
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Re: Who is the Defensive Player of the Year? 

Post#79 » by Doctor MJ » Sat Apr 9, 2022 7:27 pm

celticfan42487 wrote:
Doctor MJ wrote:
Sothron wrote:Can we see some actual defensive stats? My inclination is to vote for RW3 on Boston not Smart.


So, what I see on the Celtics is that the +/- data doesn't actually clearly point in any particular direction. First and foremost, the Celtics success is about the Celtics success with 5-man units doing remarkable work together.

I haven't decided on my own pick here but I will say:

Marcus Smart seems to be the guy to single out for the Celtics for 3 reasons:

1. He's clearly elite in the defensive role(s) he plays.
2. He's the guy known for being the defensive floor general of the team, telling and teaching others how to play. This is something that does not entirely get counted in +/-, and the classic box score misses it entirely.
3. He's the guy that the other Celtics are championing.

Anyone voting for Timelord I get it and am not going to say you're wrong, but to side with him over Smart I was really wanting to see him stand out as the clear cut impact-guy among the team, and it's just not that obvious to me.

As I say all this: Timelord clearly seems to be the guy the Celtics will be building their defense around going forward, and thus likely the DPOY in subsequent years which may make a Smart DPOY this year look particularly silly...but just among the Celtics, Smart doesn't seem like an unreasonable pick here.

And from there it will be a question if anyone can top my top Celtic. I think the arguments for Bam are great, but this missed time is an issue.


It does, in a very extreme and strong direction. It's just the direction of Smart's impact on defense isn't anywhere near Rob Williams.

Which matches up with the eye test as well. Elite rim protection and rebounding is just more important than what Smart brings to that side of the floor.

The Celtics opponents offensive rating is -1.5 with Smart on the court, but -3.7 with Rob on/off the court. And that's on a team that can slide Horford who is a high quality defensive big in Rob's spot when he sits.


This data is not pointing in a "very extreme and strong direction" in my opinion. That's a pretty small gap in a stat where there's a lot of noise.

Here's a piece of data that certainly doesn't help Smart, but is part of what I'm talking about. If I look at nbashotcharts' Defensive RAPM for the Celtics, here's the ranking:

1. Tatum
2. Brown
3. Timelord
4. Horford
5. Smart

If I look at their "Luck-Adjusted" version of the stat, Horford climbs to the top, and Timelord drops below Smart.

If I go over to bballindex's Defensive LeBron, it's Horford, then Timelord, then Smart.

If I go over to Dunks & Three's Defensive EPM, Smart ranks higher than everyone on the team other than Derrick White. (Timelord & Horford being the next Celtics on the list.)

So yeah, not clear to me, and then you factor in that Timelord has missed time, and when he's on the court, he's being directed by Smart (among others) because he's still young and not as aware as the veterans who have built the infrastructure he thrives on top of.
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Re: Who is the Defensive Player of the Year? 

Post#80 » by greg4012 » Sat Apr 9, 2022 7:41 pm

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