2021-22 NBA Season Discussion

[falcolombardi]

And if the HEat are admirable OKC is an ethical abomination.

The draft shouldn't exist and the Thunder like Hinkie before them are taking the draft to their logical conclusion. They've been de facto trying to forfeit games for months.

Just a disgusting disgrace

okc are doing what any super small market who has some aspiration to eventually compete should do tbh

is ugly but pretty much everyone has been there and done that before

If the behavior is rational the system needs to be reformed. Keep the luxury tax/soft cap but eliminate rookie scale contracts/max contracts/draft and having everyone enter the league in as a free agent.

You should never have teams rewarded for trying to lose for multiple seasons. OKC gives the impression if they could hit a button at the beginning of the year and guarantee an 0-82 season they would. Why the hell should they get revenue sharing if that is their attitude?

we have tanked 2 seasons and were not even THAT bad (aka we were really bad but not the worst team in the league nor historically bad recordwise like process sixers or bobcats at their worst)

if that makes okc a disgrace then the whole league has been a disgrace at one or multiple points, rockets, orlando detroit are just as bad the past 2 seasons too (worse actually, if only a little bit)

i will way somethingh tho, that patience for tanking only lasts so long and there la a point where it is just counterproduxtive and a team talent starts to want out and develop a losing culture

so presti should start consolidating a Project next season and have a team that shows some improvements before fans lose patience

[sp6r=underrated]

okc are doing what any super small market who has some aspiration to eventually compete should do tbh

is ugly but pretty much everyone has been there and done that before

If the behavior is rational the system needs to be reformed. Keep the luxury tax/soft cap but eliminate rookie scale contracts/max contracts/draft and having everyone enter the league in as a free agent.

You should never have teams rewarded for trying to lose for multiple seasons. OKC gives the impression if they could hit a button at the beginning of the year and guarantee an 0-82 season they would. Why the hell should they get revenue sharing if that is their attitude?

we have tanked 2 seasons and were not even THAT bad (aka we were really bad but not the worst team in the league nor historically bad recordwise like process sixers or bobcats at their worst)

if that makes okc a disgrace then the whole league has been a disgrace at one or multiple points, rockets, orlando detroit are just as bad the past 2 seasons too (worse actually, if only a little bit)

If you're right the system needs to be burned to the ground.

You should never have teams intentionally losing for years, not signing good players, benching players with pseudo injuries for years. If you're right everyone does this the system needs to be burned to the ground.

Teams should try to win games. And I'll never accept the idea I should consider ethical when teams do blatant lose jobs. At a minimum no revenue sharing for the bums. You want to lose no welfare for you

[falcolombardi]

If the behavior is rational the system needs to be reformed. Keep the luxury tax/soft cap but eliminate rookie scale contracts/max contracts/draft and having everyone enter the league in as a free agent.

You should never have teams rewarded for trying to lose for multiple seasons. OKC gives the impression if they could hit a button at the beginning of the year and guarantee an 0-82 season they would. Why the hell should they get revenue sharing if that is their attitude?

we have tanked 2 seasons and were not even THAT bad (aka we were really bad but not the worst team in the league nor historically bad recordwise like process sixers or bobcats at their worst)

if that makes okc a disgrace then the whole league has been a disgrace at one or multiple points, rockets, orlando detroit are just as bad the past 2 seasons too (worse actually, if only a little bit)

If you're right the system needs to be burned to the ground.

You should never have teams intentionally losing for years, not signing good players, benching players with pseudo injuries for years. If you're right everyone does this the system needs to be burned to the ground.

Teams should try to win games. And I'll never accept the idea I should consider ethical when teams do blatant lose jobs. At a minimum no revenue sharing for the bums. You want to lose no welfare for you

the problem of doing that is that big market teams or the richest (and less cheap) owners can afford to do clean rebuilds and get a top pick because theh dont depend on revenue sharing so much

smaller market teams get more limited options now and cannot afford to tank, meaning they lose their only good way of aquiring high end talent

essentially you make it so much harder to small teams to leave mediocrity while bigger teams not only can get the free agents now but also monopolize the top picks and with it the most young talent

[GSP]

The guard spots for All Nba are gonna be brutal............

Luka, Steph, Booker, Trae, Ja, Garland, Jaylen, Cp3, Mitchell, Jrue, Harden even sleepers like Dlo, Fvv, Dejounte, Lamelo, Cj......

A couple are locks but I dont think JA is anymore after Memphis stretch. Bane has been fantastic too.....

[eminence]

I’m not sure Utah has ever actively tanked, though they have been bad enough to look it for a few seasons.

[sp6r=underrated]

I was thinking about a couple of second generation players: Austin Rivers and Jerami Grant.

Both of them are worse players than their respective elder. Jerami Grant is at least a decent player but he hasn't achieved what his uncle did. And Austin is as far from Doc as a player as possible.

Kind of sad in a way that descendants of excellent secondary players focused so much on being bad versions of superstars.

[Doctor MJ]

I was thinking about a couple of second generation players: Austin Rivers and Jerami Grant.

Both of them are worse players than their respective elder. Jerami Grant is at least a decent player but he hasn't achieved what his uncle did. And Austin is as far from Doc as a player as possible.

Kind of sad in a way that descendants of excellent secondary players focused so much on being bad versions of superstars.

Agree in general, but I'll throw Austin a bone here after being anti-anti-anti-Austin since his time a Duke:

He's stuck around in the league by accepting a smaller role. I won't say he ever developed into the all-around player his father did, but had he insisted on being "the man", he'd have been out of the league a while ago.

Grant is a current vexation for me. Here we have a guy who continues to make choices seemingly only focused on giving him a chance to prove to the world that he's a star going into the off-season before his 9th season.

Now look, basketball history is filled with guys who could have been stars who never got that opportunity, so I'm not saying "If you haven't gotten there by your 9th season, who definitely aren't that guy."...but dude, you just had that opportunity. The result was a performance bad enough that your team got the #1 pick. Stop it.

We're at a point now where if I were running an NBA team I'd feel just fine offering Rivers a minimum deal, but I'm not sure I'd feel comfortable offering anything at all for Grant, but I don't think he'd embrace the role he'd need to embrace.

More broadly, I find multi-generational professional athletes - particularly in the NBA, where my focus lies, to be very interesting.

Who is are list right now?

Doc & Austin Rivers
Horace/Harvey & Jerami/Jerian Grant
Gary & Cole Anthony
Manute & Bol Bol
Rick & Jalen Brunson
Charles & Nic Claxton
Richard & Amir Coffey
Corey & Jae Crowder
Dell & Steph/Seth Curry
Terry & Ed Davis
Winston & Darius Garland
Tim & Tim Jr. Hardaway
Tito & Al Horford
Jaren & Jaren Jr. Jackson
Stan & Kevin Love
Pace & Nico Mannion
Kenyon & Kenyon Jr. Martin
Wes & Wes Jr. Matthews
Larry & Larry Jr. Nance
Sonny & Jabari Parker
Gary & Gary II Payton
Glenn & Glenn III Robinson
Arvydas & Domantas Sabonis
Mychal & Mychel/Klay Thompson
Gary & Gary Jr. Trent
Duane & Duane Jr. Washington
Mitchell & Andrew Wiggins
Rickie & Justise Winslow
Joe Caldwell & Marvin Bagley III
Maurice King & Ishmail Wainright

And then all-timer families who currently have no one playing in the NBA:

Bruce Hale/Rick Barry & Jon/Brent/Drew Barry
Joe & Kobe Bryant
Patrick & Patrick Jr. Ewing
George/Ed & Larry Mikan
Jim Sr. & Jim Jr./John Paxson
Dolph & Danny Schayes
John & David Stockton
Ernie & Kiki Vandegwhe (also Kiki's daughter Coco is a professional tennis player)
Bill & Luke Walton
Dominique/Gerald & Damian Wilkins

Other NBA-related families:
Sasa & Luka Doncic - Sasa played pro ball in Europe
Yannick & Joakim Noah - Yannick had arguably greater tennis career than Joakim's basketball career
Mike & Mike Jr. Conley - Mike Sr. was a Gold Medal Track & Field athlete
Marselles & Jaylen Brown - Marselles was a 7 foot boxer
Pamela/Paul McGee & Javale/Imani McGee - 3 pro women basketball players connected to Javale.
Karl Malone & Cheryl Ford/Demetress Bell - Cheryl a great WNBA player, Demetress in the NFL.
Harvey & Tamika Catchings - Tamika was a WNBA GOAT argument
Nate & Natalie Williams - Natalie in the WNBA

Wondering who I'm missing.

[sp6r=underrated]

Including siblings Reggie and Cheryl Miller/Pau & Marc Gasol.

[Rich Michmond]

There's also a pair of Spanish brothers that spent some time with a certain franchise from California (though they might be more associated with a smaller one from Tennessee).

Also, Marcin Gortat's father is a two-time Olympic bronze medalist (boxing).

[Fadeaway_J]

Devin Booker's dad had a cup of coffee in the NBA.

[LukaTheGOAT]

Looking at how some view hun in this thread, would people here consider 2022 Lebron the worst 30 ppg scorer ever to have rTS% of at least 5% ahead of the league (Lebron is at rTS% of 6% but 5 is a nice round number)?

[LukaTheGOAT]

I was thinking about a couple of second generation players: Austin Rivers and Jerami Grant.

Both of them are worse players than their respective elder. Jerami Grant is at least a decent player but he hasn't achieved what his uncle did. And Austin is as far from Doc as a player as possible.

Kind of sad in a way that descendants of excellent secondary players focused so much on being bad versions of superstars.

Agree in general, but I'll throw Austin a bone here after being anti-anti-anti-Austin since his time a Duke:

He's stuck around in the league by accepting a smaller role. I won't say he ever developed into the all-around player his father did, but had he insisted on being "the man", he'd have been out of the league a while ago.

Grant is a current vexation for me. Here we have a guy who continues to make choices seemingly only focused on giving him a chance to prove to the world that he's a star going into the off-season before his 9th season.

Now look, basketball history is filled with guys who could have been stars who never got that opportunity, so I'm not saying "If you haven't gotten there by your 9th season, who definitely aren't that guy."...but dude, you just had that opportunity. The result was a performance bad enough that your team got the #1 pick. Stop it.

We're at a point now where if I were running an NBA team I'd feel just fine offering Rivers a minimum deal, but I'm not sure I'd feel comfortable offering anything at all for Grant, but I don't think he'd embrace the role he'd need to embrace.

More broadly, I find multi-generational professional athletes - particularly in the NBA, where my focus lies, to be very interesting.

Who is are list right now?

Doc & Austin Rivers
Horace/Harvey & Jerami/Jerian Grant
Gary & Cole Anthony
Manute & Bol Bol
Rick & Jalen Brunson
Charles & Nic Claxton
Richard & Amir Coffey
Corey & Jae Crowder
Dell & Steph/Seth Curry
Terry & Ed Davis
Winston & Darius Garland
Tim & Tim Jr. Hardaway
Tito & Al Horford
Jaren & Jaren Jr. Jackson
Stan & Kevin Love
Pace & Nico Mannion
Kenyon & Kenyon Jr. Martin
Wes & Wes Jr. Matthews
Larry & Larry Jr. Nance
Sonny & Jabari Parker
Gary & Gary II Payton
Glenn & Glenn III Robinson
Arvydas & Domantas Sabonis
Mychal & Mychel/Klay Thompson
Gary & Gary Jr. Trent
Duane & Duane Jr. Washington
Mitchell & Andrew Wiggins
Rickie & Justise Winslow
Joe Caldwell & Marvin Bagley III
Maurice King & Ishmail Wainright

And then all-timer families who currently have no one playing in the NBA:

Bruce Hale/Rick Barry & Jon/Brent/Drew Barry
Joe & Kobe Bryant
Patrick & Patrick Jr. Ewing
George/Ed & Larry Mikan
Jim Sr. & Jim Jr./John Paxson
Dolph & Danny Schayes
John & David Stockton
Ernie & Kiki Vandegwhe (also Kiki's daughter Coco is a professional tennis player)
Bill & Luke Walton
Dominique/Gerald & Damian Wilkins

Other NBA-related families:
Sasa & Luka Doncic - Sasa played pro ball in Europe
Yannick & Joakim Noah - Yannick had arguably greater tennis career than Joakim's basketball career
Mike & Mike Jr. Conley - Mike Sr. was a Gold Medal Track & Field athlete
Marselles & Jaylen Brown - Marselles was a 7 foot boxer
Pamela/Paul McGee & Javale/Imani McGee - 3 pro women basketball players connected to Javale.
Karl Malone & Cheryl Ford/Demetress Bell - Cheryl a great WNBA player, Demetress in the NFL.
Harvey & Tamika Catchings - Tamika was a WNBA GOAT argument
Nate & Natalie Williams - Natalie in the WNBA

Wondering who I'm missing.

I don't see this as anything more than the problem with Grant just wanting more freedom with the ball...He went to Detroit for a bigger role and so he could get paid. I think some players just don't have the same burning desire to win even at the cost of personal milestones. I never got the impression he is cocky or ungrateful rather he just prefer to do his own thing. He's a good enough player to have flexibility over where he plays so he is just taking advantage of it.

[sp6r=underrated]

Code: Select all

Seed   Titles by Seed    Finals By Seed
1st:          48                    90
2nd:          16                    36
3rd:          7                     15
4th:          1                     5
5th:          0                     1
6th:          1                     2
7th:          0                     0
8th:          0                     1

https://nbahoopsonline.com/History/Leagues/NBA/playoffs/BestfinishbySeed.html

In 75 NBA Finals, 1st and 2nd Seeds have gotten 84% of the final slots and 85% of the titles. Top 3 seeds have won 98.6% of titles and 94% of Finals slots.

Contrary to what a lot of people think, the numbers show it is extremely hard to win titles if you dog the regular season

[sp6r=underrated]

I don't see this as anything more than the problem w Grant just wanting more freedom with the ball...He went to Detroit for a bigger role and so he could get paid we. I think soem players just don't have the same burning desire to win even at the cost of personal milestones. I never got the impression he is cocky or ungrateful rather he just prefer to do his own thing. He's a good enough player to have flexibility over where he plays so he is just taking advantage of it.

I don't think Grant is a bad person for making the career choices he has. Harden forcing Houston to trade Paul and then dogging it when it failed is far worse and reflects negatively on his character. Grant didn't do that. My understanding is he worked hard in a structured system

But, Nuggets offered him the exact same money to stay in Denver. He choose to go to Detroit because it was all about the role as you said. And he's terrible at it. The offense is putrid with him as a focal point.

Are you really a good player if you won't play a role your good at and rather play a role your bad at on terrible teams?

I'd be very hesitant to acquire a guy like that

[Fadeaway_J]

I don't see this as anything more than the problem w Grant just wanting more freedom with the ball...He went to Detroit for a bigger role and so he could get paid we. I think soem players just don't have the same burning desire to win even at the cost of personal milestones. I never got the impression he is cocky or ungrateful rather he just prefer to do his own thing. He's a good enough player to have flexibility over where he plays so he is just taking advantage of it.

I don't think Grant is a bad person for making the career choices he has. Harden forcing Houston to trade Paul and then dogging it when it failed is far worse and reflects negatively on his character. Grant didn't do that. My understanding is he worked hard in a structured system

But, Nuggets offered him the exact same money to stay in Denver. He choose to go to Detroit because it was all about the role as you said. And he's terrible at it. The offense is putrid with him as a focal point.

Are you really a good player if you won't play a role your good at and rather play a role your bad at on terrible teams?

I'd be very hesitant to acquire a guy like that

I'm actually not that bothered that he initially wanted the opportunity to be the main guy. For a guy who's been a role player his entire career, it's understandable that he made that choice if he really believed he could do more with the ball in his hands (and to some degree, he was right).

The fact that this notion still seemed to be a consideration for him in potential trades this season, after a year and a half of middling efficiency scoring on a terrible team, was more concerning to me.

[Doctor MJ]

I don't see this as anything more than the problem w Grant just wanting more freedom with the ball...He went to Detroit for a bigger role and so he could get paid we. I think soem players just don't have the same burning desire to win even at the cost of personal milestones. I never got the impression he is cocky or ungrateful rather he just prefer to do his own thing. He's a good enough player to have flexibility over where he plays so he is just taking advantage of it.

I do understand wanting freedom with the ball, but do remember that the Nuggets were willing to offer the same contract the Pistons offered, so even then, money wasn't favoring Grant's preference.

I get Grant feeling like in Detroit that he could prove to everyone he was a star who deserved freedom with the ball...but he lost that job. Yes he lost it because Detroit had decided to hand their future to Cunningham, but he had his shot. If the Pistons had gotten considerably better in '20-21 with it being Grant's team, instead of actually getting slightly worse the previous year, we wouldn't be having this conversation now.

Instead, our present situation has Grant as someone the Pistons would like to get rid of for assets, and who should be in demand...but whose stance that he wants to be the man is almost certainly holding that back.

It will be interesting to see what happens this off-season when the Pistons will try very, very hard to trade Grant away for assets. I feel like what's likely to happen is a situation where the team acquiring Grant wants him as a role player, but pays lip service to his desires up front, and then it just becomes a question of whether Grant ends up content in that compromise.

If Grant continues to insist that he wants to play like this, after he wasn't good enough to improve a 20 win team in that role in Detroit, Grant should consider leaving the NBA for a lesser league where he is good enough to play star.

[eminence]

Looking at how some view hun in this thread, would people here consider 2022 Lebron the worst 30 ppg scorer ever to have rTS% of at least 5% ahead of the league (Lebron is at rTS% of 6% but 5 is a nice round number)?

Is the question considering overall play or looking simply at scoring?

Probably not quite thinking overall, though certainly towards the bottom of the list (it's a pretty impressive list after all). I'd take him over rookie Bells, and I think it's a somewhat interesting discussion vs Tiny/Dantley as well. Most of the others were out of his range for most (all?) of their seasons where they accomplished the feat.

Guys that I can think (just thinking of high volume/efficiency guys) of that have done it in the NBA
Wilt
Oscar
Bellamy
West
Kareem
Tiny
McAdoo
Gervin
Dantley
MJ
Karl Malone
LeBron
KD
Steph
Harden

[Peregrine01]

Looking at how some view hun in this thread, would people here consider 2022 Lebron the worst 30 ppg scorer ever to have rTS% of at least 5% ahead of the league (Lebron is at rTS% of 6% but 5 is a nice round number)?

His scoring really took off once he started playing center and had 4 guards around him. The downside was that him playing center led to a massive sacrifice in defense that made the Lakers even worse than they were before. Given that, I don't find Lebron's 2022 scoring season particularly impressive.

[Fadeaway_J]

Looking at how some view hun in this thread, would people here consider 2022 Lebron the worst 30 ppg scorer ever to have rTS% of at least 5% ahead of the league (Lebron is at rTS% of 6% but 5 is a nice round number)?

His scoring really took off once he started playing center and had 4 guards around him. The downside was that him playing center led to a massive sacrifice in defense that made the Lakers even worse than they were before. Given that, I don't find Lebron's 2022 scoring season particularly impressive.

Defensively it wasn't good, but it was also one of the rare "smallball" teams that gained almost none of the benefits you would typically expect from playing small. Guys like Westbrook and Stanley Johnson might as well have been bigs for all the spacing they provided in those lineups.

[Peregrine01]

Looking at how some view hun in this thread, would people here consider 2022 Lebron the worst 30 ppg scorer ever to have rTS% of at least 5% ahead of the league (Lebron is at rTS% of 6% but 5 is a nice round number)?

His scoring really took off once he started playing center and had 4 guards around him. The downside was that him playing center led to a massive sacrifice in defense that made the Lakers even worse than they were before. Given that, I don't find Lebron's 2022 scoring season particularly impressive.

Defensively it wasn't good, but it was also one of the rare "smallball" teams that gained almost none of the benefits you would typically expect from playing small. Guys like Westbrook and Stanley Johnson might as well have been bigs for all the spacing they provided in those lineups.

Elgee had a video out showing just how much Lebron's scoring benefited from playing C. Yeah, having Westbrook was not ideal for spacing but it was certainly a lot better than Dwight Howard camping the lane.