Best defenders with no All Defense

durantbird · Post #1 » by **durantbird** » Tue Apr 12, 2022 8:38 am

Who is the best defender who didn't have All Defense accolades in his career? Is it Shawn Marion? Kevin Durant?

What other names come to mind?

Jaivl · Post #2 » by **Jaivl** » Tue Apr 12, 2022 9:08 am

70sFan · Post #3 » by **70sFan** » Tue Apr 12, 2022 9:10 am

Marion is a good choice, Durant - not so much.

Rich Michmond · Post #4 » by **Rich Michmond** » Tue Apr 12, 2022 10:00 am

Wes Unseld, Rasheed Wallace, Bill Laimbeer, Vlade Divac, Manu Ginobili

Marion not making it is a travesty. The guy was fifth, seventh, and fourth in DPOY voting from 2005 to 2007 and yet he wasn't even on a second team. At the same time, Raja Bell, who was a solid defender for a shooting guard but clearly could not anchor a defense, had two consecutive All-Defensive appearances (including a first-team selection!) while on the Suns.

No-more-rings · Post #5 » by **No-more-rings** » Tue Apr 12, 2022 12:24 pm

Rasheed Wallace not getting one is so weird. The Pistons weren't all time great at defense until he showed up.

Owly · Post #6 » by **Owly** » Tue Apr 12, 2022 12:27 pm

Assuming required to have spent the bulk of career in the era where the award has been given.

And with a question as to whether an overall standard of play is required (not an absolute top end candidate but the Barry Reports/Bibles rated Mark Macon as an elite defender ... he just sucked at everything else).

But Shawn Bradley comes to mind.

Fwiw, starting from the top of any (reliable) large sample DRAPM and knocking out all D players and players on tiny samples might be a decent starting point for the era where that's possible. e.g. https://sites.google.com/site/rapmstats/97-14-defensive-rapm.

In raw terms (no positional adjustment for expectations/norms) the list should probably be big - and especially center (only 1 slot per team)- heavy.

DNice68 · Post #7 » by **DNice68** » Tue Apr 12, 2022 4:14 pm

Cedric Maxwell
Marques Johnson

falcolombardi · Post #8 » by **falcolombardi** » Tue Apr 12, 2022 4:19 pm

andre roberson, he only made 1 all defense second team wheb he is arguably the best non big dwfender of the 2010's (yes, up there with kawhi imo)

i am biased tho cause i loved him so take me with a grain of salt

70sFan · Post #9 » by **70sFan** » Tue Apr 12, 2022 4:31 pm

DNice68 wrote:Cedric Maxwell
Marques Johnson

I wouldn't cal Maxwell that good of a defender. He was decent in his best seasons, but never really all-nba level to me.

Post #10 » by **Fadeaway_J** » Tue Apr 12, 2022 4:57 pm

Haha I think my first thread on here was on this very subject.

In addition to the names already mentioned, Jermaine O'Neal is one that sticks out to me.

DNice68 · Post #11 » by **DNice68** » Tue Apr 12, 2022 5:51 pm

70sFan wrote:
DNice68 wrote:Cedric Maxwell
Marques Johnson

I wouldn't cal Maxwell that good of a defender. He was decent in his best seasons, but never really all-nba level to me.

I think he was a good defender, and did a solid job of defending Dr. J during the 81 playoffs.

McBubbles · Post #12 » by **McBubbles** » Wed Apr 13, 2022 10:31 am

Nené Hilario!

MyUniBroDavis · Post #13 » by **MyUniBroDavis** » Wed Apr 13, 2022 10:55 am

Westbrook single handedly made a team with a three point shooting lebron and AD have a near bottom 5 offense

Jaivl · Post #14 » by **Jaivl** » Wed Apr 13, 2022 11:19 am

MyUniBroDavis wrote:Westbrook single handedly made a team with a three point shooting lebron and AD have a near bottom 5 offense

Lakers with Westbrook and without LeBron + Davis had a HIGHER ORtg than the Lakers with LeBron + Davis and without Westbrook, so... eh.

MyUniBroDavis · Post #15 » by **MyUniBroDavis** » Wed Apr 13, 2022 1:21 pm

Jaivl wrote:
MyUniBroDavis wrote:Westbrook single handedly made a team with a three point shooting lebron and AD have a near bottom 5 offense

Lakers with Westbrook and without LeBron + Davis had a HIGHER ORtg than the Lakers with LeBron + Davis and without Westbrook, so... eh.

I mean, we could go into the nuances of those two lineups stats beyond the 0.1 difference in offensive rtg according to nbawowy to see that the lebron and AD lineup was a very small sample that was shorter than the Batman movie where they show from the field about as good as the nuggets with Jokic on but probably had a run of turnovers (which would heavily effect it at that point with super small samples) whereas the Westbrook sample was also a small enough sample that it was kinda useless (but still more than triple the other one) where they shot like garbage but didn’t have a run of bad turnovers

So unless the argument is that without Westbrook the Lakers would be the worst turnover team in modern nba history

I think it makes more sense to say small sample sizes are dumb, and that the process oriented data we have in Westbrook, like this

Read on Twitter

?cxt=HHwWooCz_dHgwoEqAAAA

Obviously on a real note the Lakers offense probably wouldn’t have been a top 5 or anything like that if Westbrook got traded for a second round pick, but it’s pretty darn obvious that Westbrook was absolute doodoo in general to anyone watching lol. Both in terms of fit and him forgetting how to play basketball

Jaivl · Post #16 » by **Jaivl** » Wed Apr 13, 2022 1:34 pm

MyUniBroDavis wrote:
Jaivl wrote:
MyUniBroDavis wrote:Westbrook single handedly made a team with a three point shooting lebron and AD have a near bottom 5 offense

Lakers with Westbrook and without LeBron + Davis had a HIGHER ORtg than the Lakers with LeBron + Davis and without Westbrook, so... eh.

I mean, we could go into the nuances of those two lineups stats beyond the 0.1 difference in offensive rtg according to nbawowy to see that the lebron and AD lineup was a very small sample that was shorter than the Batman movie where they show from the field about as good as the nuggets with Jokic on but probably had a run of turnovers (which would heavily effect it at that point with super small samples) whereas the Westbrook sample was also a small enough sample that it was kinda useless (but still more than triple the other one) where they shot like garbage but didn’t have a run of bad turnovers

So unless the argument is that without Westbrook the Lakers would be the worst turnover team in modern nba history

I think it makes more sense to say small sample sizes are dumb, and that the process oriented data we have in Westbrook, like this

Read on Twitter
?cxt=HHwWooCz_dHgwoEqAAAA

Obviously on a real note the Lakers offense probably wouldn’t have been a top 5 or anything like that if Westbrook got traded for a second round pick, but it’s pretty darn obvious that Westbrook was absolute doodoo in general to anyone watching lol. Both in terms of fit and him forgetting how to play basketball

Too much text + L + ratio

MyUniBroDavis · Post #17 » by **MyUniBroDavis** » Wed Apr 13, 2022 1:50 pm

Jaivl wrote:
MyUniBroDavis wrote:
Jaivl wrote:Lakers with Westbrook and without LeBron + Davis had a HIGHER ORtg than the Lakers with LeBron + Davis and without Westbrook, so... eh.

I mean, we could go into the nuances of those two lineups stats beyond the 0.1 difference in offensive rtg according to nbawowy to see that the lebron and AD lineup was a very small sample that was shorter than the Batman movie where they show from the field about as good as the nuggets with Jokic on but probably had a run of turnovers (which would heavily effect it at that point with super small samples) whereas the Westbrook sample was also a small enough sample that it was kinda useless (but still more than triple the other one) where they shot like garbage but didn’t have a run of bad turnovers

So unless the argument is that without Westbrook the Lakers would be the worst turnover team in modern nba history

I think it makes more sense to say small sample sizes are dumb, and that the process oriented data we have in Westbrook, like this

Read on Twitter
?cxt=HHwWooCz_dHgwoEqAAAA

Obviously on a real note the Lakers offense probably wouldn’t have been a top 5 or anything like that if Westbrook got traded for a second round pick, but it’s pretty darn obvious that Westbrook was absolute doodoo in general to anyone watching lol. Both in terms of fit and him forgetting how to play basketball

Too much text + L + ratio

Tbf that’s a better response than the other 4 people on the planet that still think Westbrook is a good player lol

I like the guy but mans was trash last year lol

sp6r=underrated · Post #18 » by **sp6r=underrated** » Wed Apr 13, 2022 10:35 pm

I was legit floored to realize Marion never made an All-NBA team but I'm also not sure he deserved one given that Duncan/Garnett were taking 2 of the 4 forward slots throughout his career.

ronnymac2 · Post #19 » by **ronnymac2** » Sat Apr 16, 2022 1:36 am

Owly wrote:Assuming required to have spent the bulk of career in the era where the award has been given.

And with a question as to whether an overall standard of play is required (not an absolute top end candidate but the Barry Reports/Bibles rated Mark Macon as an elite defender ... he just sucked at everything else).

Watch on YouTube

Put some respect on his name. :wink:

As an aside, I interviewed him when he became coach of the beleaguered Binghamton team. Seemed like a nice guy - much more receptive to questions regarding on-court basketball minutiae than questions designed to yield an eye-grabbing quote.