Eastern Conference | Round 1 | (4) Philadelphia 76ers vs. (5) Toronto Raptors

[bamheat]

I hope Toronto wins but I think this year Embiid will finally beat the Toronto and get over the hump.

It's a make or break series. His legacy will depend on it.

[skones]

Embiid and Harris haven't made the CFs. So are they less experienced than Siakam and VanVleet? If these teams were far apart in the standings, I think it might mean something. They're close. I think if Toronto has a chance they just have superior chemistry and a strong leadership tree. They have fun when they play, and they don't kill themselves with turnovers and young team stuff. That can win a first round, for sure.

Have Siakam and VanVleet proven anything as 1/2? You have your answer there.

[Exp0sed]

I compared Harden's Philly's stint (true that it's small sample size)
I see no evidence for the argument that Siakam has been worthy of an all-defense team and Harden hasn't been THAT bad on defense for years...it's just reputation (and he was never rly bad on certain aspects of defense, post defence most notably etc.)

In a league that's officiated and played the way it is, Offense > Defense by quite a bit and Harden's incredible offensively and playing next to Embiid+decent shooters makes life very easy for him. His numbers are quite impressive in a Sixers uniform (apart from shooting ofc).

[Jadoogar]

Embiid and Harris haven't made the CFs. So are they less experienced than Siakam and VanVleet? If these teams were far apart in the standings, I think it might mean something. They're close. I think if Toronto has a chance they just have superior chemistry and a strong leadership tree. They have fun when they play, and they don't kill themselves with turnovers and young team stuff. That can win a first round, for sure.

Have Siakam and VanVleet proven anything as 1/2? You have your answer there.

They made it to the second round in the bubble (lost by 5 in game 7).
Sixers made it to the second round last year (and lost in spectacular fashion)
They have essentially proven the same

[Exp0sed]

Embiid and Harris haven't made the CFs. So are they less experienced than Siakam and VanVleet? If these teams were far apart in the standings, I think it might mean something. They're close. I think if Toronto has a chance they just have superior chemistry and a strong leadership tree. They have fun when they play, and they don't kill themselves with turnovers and young team stuff. That can win a first round, for sure.

Have Siakam and VanVleet proven anything as 1/2? You have your answer there.

Has Embiid and Harden 'proved' anything?
If anything..they proved the opposite, especially Harden but Embiid will join that conversation if Philly doesn't make it to the ECF

[skones]

This is a weird argument. Neither of these rosters are particularly inexperienced. The Raps have a decent group of vets that are in the rotation: Thaddeus Young, Siakam, and FVV have all played around 50 playoff games apiece. Embiid has played 34. Harden has played over 130 but how have the playoffs general gone for Harden? I think your point would be worth making if one of these 2 teams were young and inexperienced, but both of them are kind of mixed groups. I'd probably overall give Toronto the edge here because so many of their core players (and coach) have played together for so much longer.

Also: Siakam was better than Harden this year. Full stop. Even if you want to make an argument for Harden's offense, you're comparing a guy who will get all-defense votes to one of the crappiest defenders in the league.

Put me in the camp that thinks it's a "weird" to call an argument a "weird argument" while discounting playoff experience because "how have they gone for Harden" and neglecting to look objectively and the performance of FVV and Siakam in roles relevant to their current standing on the team.

Also: Harden is superior to Siakam in BPM, VORP, WS/48, EPM, LEBRON, and RAPTOR. That's a lot of smoke.

[Courtside]

Toronto just doesn't have the collective experience or the top end talent. Think Philly makes work of this in 6.

Millsap, Embiid, Harris, Harden, Niang, Green, Jordan, Millsap. That's a lot of vet experience to ignore here.

Only Embiid, Harris and Harden will be key contributors. None of them have NBA championships and not sure if any of them have even been past the 2nd round aside from Harden.

Millsap and Jordan won’t likely play and if they do then that’s excellent news for the Raptors. Green and Niang will come off the bench and I’m sure the Raptors hope they play a lot as well. Lol.

We have guys that have actually won championships. Even the idea that the Raptors lack top end talent is highly debatable. Pascal has been a top end talent all year. He will need to carry that into the playoffs but the talent and ability are there. Sixers have the best player in the series. Harden will need to play like the 2nd best player for them to win.

There's a key contributor that literally won a championship on your team and you've neglected to list him.....

First, it's not debatable that the Raptors lack top end talent. You have to have the rosiest of the rosiest colored glasses to argue that Siakam has been "top end talent all year." 48th in RAPTOR, 43rd in RAPM, 21 in RPM, 61st in EPM, 57th in LEBRON, 20th in TPA. Like c'mon now. Harden for all of the flack he's gotten this season, has been better.

Siakam and FVV have championship rings. Sure. So does Danny Green. Neither Siakam or FVV have experience being the best player on their team in a playoff scenario. Harden and Embiid both have that and that level of experience cannot be discounted.

First off, Siakam missed the first quarter of the season.

Second, since you brought them up, how does Harden rank in those very same advanced stats as a Sixer?

No one is denying that the 76ers have the best player in the series, or experience in terms of total playoff games played. You win there, but there is a bigger talent dropoff after the top two where Toronto may not have the same "star power", but has a more even or gradual slope down the roster talent wise, meaning more consistency and fewer holes in terms of one way players or specialists or depth that is at the end of their physical ability to keep up. Embiid is to have to go ham for 40+ minutes because the Raptors are a huge plus when he's off... and he hasn't really shown to be able to play that many minutes with consistent performance or health. Be will beast no doubt, the question is who else will? Much less proof there, and Harden hasn't been playoff winner anywhere outside of being a bench player early in his career in OKC.

Considering what he's paid, the cost to the Sixers to get him, and the potential risk in terms of a series loss wieghed against a probable $200 mil extension, it's A LOT of pressure on him - probably more than any other player in these playoffs - he just has not proven he can handle playoff pressure well. He doesn't get to the line like he used to and he folds when playing against long and physical opponents.

Embiid = awesome
Doc + Harden = Morey is shi**ng his pants

Series could go either way, but the Raptors sure have the ability to just go out and play regardless of outcome, while having a decent level of confidence to compete considering how the season series wentz and how we are well constructed to counter what Philly will want to do. No one's contract is riding on the outcome - everyone important is expected to learn from whatever happens in this series (or beyond) and come back better next year. That's it.

[skones]

Embiid and Harris haven't made the CFs. So are they less experienced than Siakam and VanVleet? If these teams were far apart in the standings, I think it might mean something. They're close. I think if Toronto has a chance they just have superior chemistry and a strong leadership tree. They have fun when they play, and they don't kill themselves with turnovers and young team stuff. That can win a first round, for sure.

Have Siakam and VanVleet proven anything as 1/2? You have your answer there.

They made it to the second round in the bubble (lost by 5 in game 7).
Sixers made it to the second round last year (and lost in spectacular fashion)
They have essentially proven the same

They made it to round 2 because Brooklyn didn't bring their team. No Kyrie, no Dinwiddie, and a banged up Joe Harris. Now in round 2, against Boston, how did they fare?

Both Embiid and Harden have proven that they're legitimate and consistent "put the team on their back" 25+ contributors IN the playoffs. FVV and Siakam have not, so no, they haven't essentially proven the same.

[Courtside]

Have Siakam and VanVleet proven anything as 1/2? You have your answer there.

They made it to the second round in the bubble (lost by 5 in game 7).
Sixers made it to the second round last year (and lost in spectacular fashion)
They have essentially proven the same

They made it to round 2 because Brooklyn didn't bring their team. No Kyrie, no Dinwiddie, and a banged up Joe Harris. Now in round 2, against Boston, how did they fare?

Both Embiid and Harden have proven that they're legitimate and consistent "put the team on their back" 25+ contributors IN the playoffs. FVV and Siakam have not, so no, they haven't essentially proven the same.

Harden has proven to be more of a Derozan than a Durant when it comes to the playoffs.

[Exp0sed]

Have Siakam and VanVleet proven anything as 1/2? You have your answer there.

They made it to the second round in the bubble (lost by 5 in game 7).
Sixers made it to the second round last year (and lost in spectacular fashion)
They have essentially proven the same

They made it to round 2 because Brooklyn didn't bring their team. No Kyrie, no Dinwiddie, and a banged up Joe Harris. Now in round 2, against Boston, how did they fare?

Both Embiid and Harden have proven that they're legitimate and consistent "put the team on their back" 25+ contributors IN the playoffs. FVV and Siakam have not, so no, they haven't essentially proven the same.

I don't think I have ever heard the terms "Playoffs" and "Proven" attributed to Harden b4, that's a new one

Btw, Fred and Siakam don't need to do that..The Raps are moe balanced, they have other options...GTJ, OG, Barnes. They have less top end talent but are less prone to chokes as the production is more balanced across the board, on both ends of the floor

Siakam is healthy, making shots for a while, the 76er's have a matchup issue with him and u think he's just gonna choke cuz it's the playoffs? He might..but that's unlikely and certainly not something worth discussing rn imo

edit: Harden on the other hand has a proven history of choking. Choking in the playoffs usually means that said player doesn't elevate his game under pressure and even that his impact and productivity diminish when the pressure is on.
Pressure gonna be on for Harden AND he has proven to not react well to it, add that to him not being in the best of shapes...u can see why that's more reasonable to discuss? that's a concern...I'd be concerned of that If i were a 76ers fan, that's for sure

[binjumper]

Have Siakam and VanVleet proven anything as 1/2? You have your answer there.

They made it to the second round in the bubble (lost by 5 in game 7).
Sixers made it to the second round last year (and lost in spectacular fashion)
They have essentially proven the same

They made it to round 2 because Brooklyn didn't bring their team. No Kyrie, no Dinwiddie, and a banged up Joe Harris. Now in round 2, against Boston, how did they fare?

Both Embiid and Harden have proven that they're legitimate and consistent "put the team on their back" 25+ contributors IN the playoffs. FVV and Siakam have not, so no, they haven't essentially proven the same.

This is actually super wrong. Embiid has been defended very well by the Raptors throughout his career and playoffs. While Harden's team has never got far without CP3. Its funny how much Houston fell off when he left. Harden has had epic collapses in the playoffs many times and sometimes matches turnovers with his jersey number. Let's not act like those two are world beaters. Sixers lost to Atlanta last year which was a massive upset.

[skones]

They made it to the second round in the bubble (lost by 5 in game 7).
Sixers made it to the second round last year (and lost in spectacular fashion)
They have essentially proven the same

They made it to round 2 because Brooklyn didn't bring their team. No Kyrie, no Dinwiddie, and a banged up Joe Harris. Now in round 2, against Boston, how did they fare?

Both Embiid and Harden have proven that they're legitimate and consistent "put the team on their back" 25+ contributors IN the playoffs. FVV and Siakam have not, so no, they haven't essentially proven the same.

Harden has proven to be more of a Derozan than a Durant when it comes to the playoffs.

That's not actually true though and is remarkably hyperbolic. You're really going to draw a line between 23, 6, and 6 in his career on a 59TS%, 6.8 BPM, and 10.8 VORP to 22, 5, and 4 in a career on 50.3TS%, .1 BPM, and 1.1 VORP?

That's just dishonest. I get it, Harden is a prima donna, a prick, a diva, whatever. He's easy to dislike and it's clouding the realities of what he's accomplished. He took 2 teams to the WCF as the best player on a team. It seems to be a driving concept on RealGM that you haven't accomplished anything if you haven't won a ship. Last I checked, there's a whole ass mountain to climb before you're taking pictures on the summit.

[Tripod]

Toronto just doesn't have the collective experience or the top end talent. Think Philly makes work of this in 6.

Millsap, Embiid, Harris, Harden, Niang, Green, Jordan, Millsap. That's a lot of vet experience to ignore here.

Only Embiid, Harris and Harden will be key contributors. None of them have NBA championships and not sure if any of them have even been past the 2nd round aside from Harden.

Millsap and Jordan won’t likely play and if they do then that’s excellent news for the Raptors. Green and Niang will come off the bench and I’m sure the Raptors hope they play a lot as well. Lol.

We have guys that have actually won championships. Even the idea that the Raptors lack top end talent is highly debatable. Pascal has been a top end talent all year. He will need to carry that into the playoffs but the talent and ability are there. Sixers have the best player in the series. Harden will need to play like the 2nd best player for them to win.

Should be a great series.

Siakam has been great, proved many doubters wrong but he was def not 'top end' talent, he peaked at the right time and if he can carry it over into the the post-season (as many are expecting him to as Philly is a gr8 matchup for him personally) - that would be immense for the Raps.

I think that even tho the list above me is ridic (Millsap and Jordan, Niang rly?) the basic premise isn't wrong...Philly has the two best players in the series, that should normally equate an easy win in a 7 game series. that's what 'top end' means to me anyway...

However as I already said, I think the Raps are a terrible matchup for them and like the Raps odds of an upset - still gonna be quite the feat if they will be able to actually achieve it. Spoiler alert: If they don't and the 76ers take it (as they should, Doc is just lol bad) - it wouldn't be thanks to Millsap and Jordan's 'experience' or Danny Green's championship pedigree haha

If only Siakam was top end talent this year.

Read on Twitter

Read on Twitter

[Raps in 4]

Have Siakam and VanVleet proven anything as 1/2? You have your answer there.

They made it to the second round in the bubble (lost by 5 in game 7).
Sixers made it to the second round last year (and lost in spectacular fashion)
They have essentially proven the same

They made it to round 2 because Brooklyn didn't bring their team. No Kyrie, no Dinwiddie, and a banged up Joe Harris. Now in round 2, against Boston, how did they fare?

Both Embiid and Harden have proven that they're legitimate and consistent "put the team on their back" 25+ contributors IN the playoffs. FVV and Siakam have not, so no, they haven't essentially proven the same.

How did they fare against Boston? They lost to them in a game 7, by two possessions.

How did Embiid fare against them that year? Swept in the first round. Embiid is 1-8 against Boston in the playoffs.

[links135]

Have Siakam and VanVleet proven anything as 1/2? You have your answer there.

They made it to the second round in the bubble (lost by 5 in game 7).
Sixers made it to the second round last year (and lost in spectacular fashion)
They have essentially proven the same

They made it to round 2 because Brooklyn didn't bring their team. No Kyrie, no Dinwiddie, and a banged up Joe Harris. Now in round 2, against Boston, how did they fare?

Both Embiid and Harden have proven that they're legitimate and consistent "put the team on their back" 25+ contributors IN the playoffs. FVV and Siakam have not, so no, they haven't essentially proven the same.

.....Game 7?

Embiid hasn't made the ECF.

Harden may have a decent amount of experience, but he's at least 60 lb overweight which is why he's shooting 33% on open 3 pointers.

I would look at Siakam like Paul George regarding 2020. Sure there was PlayoffP. Then the next year with no bubble he played like normal.

I'm sure beating the Wizards last year really proved something for Phili. That they didn't even need Embiid to beat em.

Man I really wish Kevin Durants feet were an inch smaller I tell ya 'hwat

[Los_29]

Toronto just doesn't have the collective experience or the top end talent. Think Philly makes work of this in 6.

Millsap, Embiid, Harris, Harden, Niang, Green, Jordan, Millsap. That's a lot of vet experience to ignore here.

Only Embiid, Harris and Harden will be key contributors. None of them have NBA championships and not sure if any of them have even been past the 2nd round aside from Harden.

Millsap and Jordan won’t likely play and if they do then that’s excellent news for the Raptors. Green and Niang will come off the bench and I’m sure the Raptors hope they play a lot as well. Lol.

We have guys that have actually won championships. Even the idea that the Raptors lack top end talent is highly debatable. Pascal has been a top end talent all year. He will need to carry that into the playoffs but the talent and ability are there. Sixers have the best player in the series. Harden will need to play like the 2nd best player for them to win.

Should be a great series.

Siakam has been great, proved many doubters wrong but he was def not 'top end' talent, he peaked at the right time and if he can carry it over into the the post-season (as many are expecting him to as Philly is a gr8 matchup for him personally) - that would be immense for the Raps.

I think that even tho the list above me is ridic (Millsap and Jordan, Niang rly?) the basic premise isn't wrong...Philly has the two best players in the series, that should normally equate an easy win in a 7 game series. that's what 'top end' means to me anyway...

However as I already said, I think the Raps are a terrible matchup for them and like the Raps odds of an upset - still gonna be quite the feat if they will be able to actually achieve it. Spoiler alert: If they don't and the 76ers take it (as they should, Doc is just lol bad) - it wouldn't be thanks to Millsap and Jordan's 'experience' or Danny Green's championship pedigree haha

I agree with this. Although I think this series will hinge on how good Harden is. The last two games they played, the 2nd best player on the floor wasn't Harden. It was Siakam (in their last game Siakam was the best player on the floor). If Harden can't be the 2nd best player in this series then I like the Raptors in an upset.

[Meeksology]

This back n forth quantifying about who has more playoff experience between the likes of Thad young and niang is nauseating.
This is gonna be a long week.


Sent from my SM-N950W using RealGM mobile app

[Jadoogar]

Have Siakam and VanVleet proven anything as 1/2? You have your answer there.

They made it to the second round in the bubble (lost by 5 in game 7).
Sixers made it to the second round last year (and lost in spectacular fashion)
They have essentially proven the same

They made it to round 2 because Brooklyn didn't bring their team. No Kyrie, no Dinwiddie, and a banged up Joe Harris. Now in round 2, against Boston, how did they fare?

Both Embiid and Harden have proven that they're legitimate and consistent "put the team on their back" 25+ contributors IN the playoffs. FVV and Siakam have not, so no, they haven't essentially proven the same.

I told you how they faired, they lost by 5 in game 7.
Embiid has never made it past the second round (same as Siakam). Sixers had a layup to make the conference finals last season but choked against a less talented and less experienced team. If you want that kind of experience, then sure, go for it

[pingpongrac]

I didn’t include him because he’s not a key contributor. If you’re relying on Danny Green to be a key contributor then I don’t like your chances of making a run in these playoffs.

Pascal Siakam has played like a top end talent. It’s actually not even up for discussion. Whether he plays like this in the playoffs remains to be seen. But he has the talent to do so which is why he is likely going to be named to a 2nd ALL-NBA team.

Harden and Embiid have a reputation as playoff chokers. Fred and Pascal were huge contributors to a championship team. OG has also performed very well in the playoffs.

If you're playing 20+ minutes on a team with championship aspirations, you're a key contributor.

Again, it IS up for discussion because he's not a top end talent. When I can name 15-20 guys that are flat out better off the top of my head, you are not "top end talent." You're a full one or two tiers below. This is the reality of Pascal Siakam. Putting it any other way doesn't adhere to reality.

Harden and Embiid have a "reputation as playoff chokers" while Pascal Siakam, he of the 38.2/12.5/72.7 shooting splits in his last series and Fred Van Vleet, he of the 34.8/31.6/86.7 shooting splits in HIS last series are "huge contributors to a championship team." That's spin if I've ever seen it. We're in a different world here. Kyle Lowry and Kawhi Leonard are not walking through that door. Siakam and Van Vleet have shifted up into larger roles and they haven't relevant "prove it" experience in them.

Who are the 15-20 players that are "flat-out better" than Siakam? If you're strictly talking about offence, maybe I can see that case, but there are a handful of one-way players that aren't clearly better than Siakam (Trae and DeRozan stick out, maybe Kyrie and Mitchell) because he is very good on both ends of the floor. I don't know of ~20 players in the league that can put up 22/8/5 on decent efficiency while being very good defenders. Siakam has absolutely been a top 20 player this season. If he didn't miss the first month and take a few weeks to get up to speed after shoulder surgery, his numbers – especially impact numbers like VORP, EPM, LEBRON and RAPTOR which were tanked by that start – his numbers would have looked a lot better too. He averaged 24/9/6 on 57 TS% with a +9 on/off rating in his last ~50 games.

Yes, Harden and Embiid have the "playoff choker" label because they have flamed out early multiple times as #1 options and they have never actually WON a Championship. Siakam and FVV had a really bad offensive series against the Celtics in which they were both kind of #2 type options along with Lowry (all three attempted 16-19 FGA). That's not a whole lot to go off of, especially considering it was a single series in the bubble – the same bubble in which your Bucks were badly outplayed by Miami because their role players went off and Butler outplayed Giannis.

It's ridiculous to discredit what Siakam and FVV contributed to Toronto's title. Siakam averaged 19/7/3 throughout the playoffs – and 20/8/4 in the Finals – while being the clear #2 option. FVV struggled at times (mostly in the Philly series due to their length), but he averaged 25 MPG throughout the playoffs and came to life in the most important games (12 PPG on 62 TS% in the ECF+Finals) while making life difficult for Curry – who did a lot of his damage against Green, which forced Nurse to make adjustments throughout the game/series.

Sent from my Pixel 4 using RealGM mobile app

[skones]

The two of you are dodging the question. And you know exactly what I'm asking. I'll ask again more specifically this time. How did they fare individually?

I told you how they faired, they lost by 5 in game 7.
Embiid has never made it past the second round (same as Siakam). Sixers had a layup to make the conference finals last season but choked against a less talented and less experienced team. If you want that kind of experience, then sure, go for it

They made it to round 2 because Brooklyn didn't bring their team. No Kyrie, no Dinwiddie, and a banged up Joe Harris. Now in round 2, against Boston, how did they fare?

Both Embiid and Harden have proven that they're legitimate and consistent "put the team on their back" 25+ contributors IN the playoffs. FVV and Siakam have not, so no, they haven't essentially proven the same.

How did they fare against Boston? They lost to them in a game 7, by two possessions.

How did Embiid fare against them that year? Swept in the first round. Embiid is 1-8 against Boston in the playoffs.