#2 - 15 best players post Stockton/Malone

babyjax13 · Post #1 » by **babyjax13** » Sun Apr 10, 2022 5:46 am

#1 was close, and Deron eeked it out by a vote. Let's go for #2, now!

#1 Deron Williams

Some players will overlap with Stockton and Malone, but the criteria is simply that they spent a majority of their careers outside that context. In the offseason maybe we can do another series based on the best Jazz players ever, which we have done before.

Please nominate the next player to go on the list, and let me know if they should replace someone already on it!

babyjax13 · Post #2 » by **babyjax13** » Sun Apr 10, 2022 5:57 am

I went with Kirilenko. Looking at advance metrics AK's peak was actually much higher than Rudy's just by BPM (not the end-all-be-all), but it was cut short by injuries. In 04-05 he was well on his way to his best season before it getting cut short by injuries, and after 05-06 he never quite regained the same form:

BPM
03-04: +7.8
04-05: +9.2
05-06: +6.3
06-07: +3.8

(two more seasons over +5.0)

vs.
18-19: +5.4
19-20: +3.6
20-21: +4.9
21-22: +4.6

These are obviously contextual, but in the two years AK was the first option on the team he was absolutely amazing, and in the one year with Deron and Boozer where Booze only played 33 games so AK benefitted from playing power forward, he was similarly awesome. A combination of injuries and being forced out of position by a worse player hurt his career, but it was still really good, regardless. A shame we did not try to deal Boozer for a small forward (Mike Miller? Shane Battier? Shawn Marion? Jason Richardson? Joe Johnson? unclear who would have been available) after 06-07 when it became clear he and AK did not synergize the best (were still very good together).

dr0welf · Post #3 » by **dr0welf** » Sun Apr 10, 2022 6:06 pm

I went with Donovan #2. I think he is the better player overall. Gobert is a better defender and so was AK but when I look at overall game, Donovan is the best all around player since DWill.

I would add Rubio to the list even if he wasn't here long he still made an impact

zero24gravity · Post #4 » by **zero24gravity** » Tue Apr 12, 2022 8:59 pm

The lack of understanding, even amongst Jazz fans, for Gobert's impact & greatness is crazy to me. The analytics don't lie, nor does how the team looks without him. He'll be tied for the most DPOY's in NBA history after this year. He's a head above any non Stock/Karl player in this team's history, especially since he's sustaining (and improving) over the years.

D-Will was great. But he played only 5.5 years with the Jazz. He averaged under 20ppg all seasons with the team, except the year he was traded mid-season. Granted, he did go over 10apg all but his first 2 years. All Rookie 2006, All NBA 2008 (and 2010, when he didn't finish on the Jazz), ONE all star appearance with Utah. He was great in his short prime, and had a killer playoff run when they made it to the conf finals. But was that short run with 1 All Star appearance better than a 3 time DPOY (will be 4), 3 time All Star, 5 time Defensive team (soon to be 6), 4 time All NBA team member? Come'on!

AK47 is my favorite NBA player to watch, ever. Yes, ever. ... and all because of the way he played D! Love this guy! But, really... better than Rudy Gobert? Not even close. 2001-02 All Rookie team. Andrei was a 1 time All Star in 10 years with the team. I'd argue he was snubbed a couple times, but was only a 3 time All D player. 0 All NBA nods. Led the league in blocks in 05-06. (Rudy has led the league twice in blocks & rebounds, and 4 times in FG%.)

Winshares? Deron & AK were over 11 one time each. Rudy has AVERAGED over 11 the past 6 years.
Offensive rating? Gobert's career average is higher than Deron or AK's BEST season.
Defensive rating? Again, same. His career average (including his limited rookie season) is higher than either other player's highest season.
Is Deron or AK getting into the Hall of Fame? (No) Will Rudy, even if he retired today? Pretty likely, and for sure after a couple more years, even if there's a slight drop-off.

I know this is a very limited poll, and is just for fun. .... but damn, y'all. You really think Rudy is barely scratching the top 5 of Jazz players since the 90's? It's no wonder he gets crap from other players & fanbases .... even his own don't get how impactful he is.

Catchall · Post #5 » by **Catchall** » Tue Apr 12, 2022 10:01 pm

I said Donovan. He's a bonafide All Star who is still improving. I could see the argument for Rudy Gobert here.

zero24gravity · Post #6 » by **zero24gravity** » Tue Apr 12, 2022 10:25 pm

Catchall wrote:I said Donovan. He's a bonafide All Star who is still improving. I could see the argument for Rudy Gobert here.

I have DM ahead of D-Will & AK, as well. I just see him as closer to Deron than I do Rudy, when it comes to impact & greatness. Donovan has the ability to be the best of the group, though. Hoping he's in Utah long enough to get himself a statue!

babyjax13 · Post #7 » by **babyjax13** » Tue Apr 12, 2022 10:35 pm

Going to put up a new one tomorrow, probably around 8PM Mountain Time, in case we get last second votes.

babyjax13 · Post #8 » by **babyjax13** » Tue Apr 12, 2022 10:38 pm

zero24gravity wrote:The lack of understanding, even amongst Jazz fans, for Gobert's impact & greatness is crazy to me. The analytics don't lie, nor does how the team looks without him. He'll be tied for the most DPOY's in NBA history after this year. He's a head above any non Stock/Karl player in this team's history, especially since he's sustaining (and improving) over the years.

D-Will was great. But he played only 5.5 years with the Jazz. He averaged under 20ppg all seasons with the team, except the year he was traded mid-season. Granted, he did go over 10apg all but his first 2 years. All Rookie 2006, All NBA 2008 (and 2010, when he didn't finish on the Jazz), ONE all star appearance with Utah. He was great in his short prime, and had a killer playoff run when they made it to the conf finals. But was that short run with 1 All Star appearance better than a 3 time DPOY (will be 4), 3 time All Star, 5 time Defensive team (soon to be 6), 4 time All NBA team member? Come'on!

AK47 is my favorite NBA player to watch, ever. Yes, ever. ... and all because of the way he played D! Love this guy! But, really... better than Rudy Gobert? Not even close. 2001-02 All Rookie team. Andrei was a 1 time All Star in 10 years with the team. I'd argue he was snubbed a couple times, but was only a 3 time All D player. 0 All NBA nods. Led the league in blocks in 05-06. (Rudy has led the league twice in blocks & rebounds, and 4 times in FG%.)

Winshares? Deron & AK were over 11 one time each. Rudy has AVERAGED over 11 the past 6 years.
Offensive rating? Gobert's career average is higher than Deron or AK's BEST season.
Defensive rating? Again, same. His career average (including his limited rookie season) is higher than either other player's highest season.
Is Deron or AK getting into the Hall of Fame? (No) Will Rudy, even if he retired today? Pretty likely, and for sure after a couple more years, even if there's a slight drop-off.

I know this is a very limited poll, and is just for fun. .... but damn, y'all. You really think Rudy is barely scratching the top 5 of Jazz players since the 90's? It's no wonder he gets crap from other players & fanbases .... even his own don't get how impactful he is.

You convinced me to switch my vote. I think everyone is a bit tired of this team right now, it's felt like an exhausting season. Hopefully the playoffs reminds us.

TNJazz · Post #9 » by **TNJazz** » Wed Apr 13, 2022 2:01 pm

I think it's Rudy, far and away...
I loved watching AK 47..
DM while really, really good, isn't the impactful player Rudy is.

Post #10 » by **Inigo Montoya** » Wed Apr 13, 2022 3:36 pm

I'll take AK47. How far the team gets in the playoffs should count for something. Deron's Jazz, with Boozer, Okur and AK was a legit contender, this team isn't. They went to the WCF and could have done so several time if they didn't get to meet the Lakers so early every time.

Also, put Gobert on that 2005-06 team instead of AK and that team isn't winning 41 games.