ImageImageImage

2021-22 regular season thread

Moderator: ijspeelman

jbk1234
Retired Mod
Retired Mod
Posts: 59,098
And1: 36,139
Joined: Dec 22, 2010
 

Re: 2021-22 regular season thread 

Post#1381 » by jbk1234 » Mon Apr 11, 2022 6:25 pm

JonFromVA wrote:
jbk1234 wrote:
JonFromVA wrote:
There's lots of ways to use different talents, but I wonder how many "game managers" would be able to just jump in off the streets and get something out of an ad-hoc lineup like Brown-Stevens-Windler-Nembard.


Whatever the Cavs need to do to fill the role, they need to do to fill the role. Garland is likely to miss 10+ games a season, and if he continues on his current mpg trajectory, disaster is waiting.


Goodwin was like the Cavs 8th choice to be playing backup PG this season ... if they were healthy or worked out: Rubio, Sexton Rondo, Pangos, Frazier, Osman, or LeVert would have been taking care of it.

There's a wide gulf between "not trash" and first choice to be the team's backup PG next season ...


None of Sexton, LeVert, nor Cedi are PGs so if they're on that list, that's your first problem. Rubio was great. I had assumed that Rondo was a break the glass in case of emergency move. None of Frazier, Pangos or Goodwin were capable backups though and I don't feel like a terribly large sample size was needed to figure that out.
cbosh4mvp wrote:
Jarret Allen isn’t winning you anything. Garland won’t show up in the playoffs. Mobley is a glorified dunk man. Mitchell has some experience but is a liability on defense. To me, the Cavs are a treadmill team.
JonFromVA
RealGM
Posts: 15,153
And1: 5,032
Joined: Dec 08, 2009
     

Re: 2021-22 regular season thread 

Post#1382 » by JonFromVA » Mon Apr 11, 2022 7:32 pm

jbk1234 wrote:
JonFromVA wrote:
jbk1234 wrote:
Whatever the Cavs need to do to fill the role, they need to do to fill the role. Garland is likely to miss 10+ games a season, and if he continues on his current mpg trajectory, disaster is waiting.


Goodwin was like the Cavs 8th choice to be playing backup PG this season ... if they were healthy or worked out: Rubio, Sexton Rondo, Pangos, Frazier, Osman, or LeVert would have been taking care of it.

There's a wide gulf between "not trash" and first choice to be the team's backup PG next season ...


None of Sexton, LeVert, nor Cedi are PGs so if they're on that list, that's your first problem. Rubio was great. I had assumed that Rondo was a break the glass in case of emergency move. None of Frazier, Pangos or Goodwin were capable backups though and I don't feel like a terribly large sample size was needed to figure that out.


Or you develop the rest of the offense so they can function with something short of elite PG play at times.
User avatar
ijspeelman
Forum Mod - Cavs
Forum Mod - Cavs
Posts: 2,661
And1: 1,222
Joined: Feb 17, 2022
Contact:
   

Re: 2021-22 regular season thread 

Post#1383 » by ijspeelman » Mon Apr 11, 2022 7:44 pm

We've played pretty well (average of ~3 point difference in Nets favor) in our games against the Nets this year (each game has had varying starting lineups for both teams). If Cavs defense translates to a playoff atmosphere, we could put up a real fight to beat them in a one game series. Our problem in our last game against them was our rebounding (gave up 13 offensive rebounds) and the fourth quarter defensive breakdown. There are 4 guys that they'll play we need to glue ourselves to on the 3pt line (Kyrie, KD, Patty, and Seth) and then we need to pack the paint on drives with the guys guarding Drummond, Brown, Claxton, and Edwards. We still can't give Brown and Edwards wide open shots, but stopping a Kyrie or KD drive/pull-up versus a contested Brown or Edwards shot is a no-brainer.
JonFromVA
RealGM
Posts: 15,153
And1: 5,032
Joined: Dec 08, 2009
     

Re: 2021-22 regular season thread 

Post#1384 » by JonFromVA » Mon Apr 11, 2022 9:39 pm

ijspeelman wrote:We've played pretty well (average of ~3 point difference in Nets favor) in our games against the Nets this year (each game has had varying starting lineups for both teams). If Cavs defense translates to a playoff atmosphere, we could put up a real fight to beat them in a one game series. Our problem in our last game against them was our rebounding (gave up 13 offensive rebounds) and the fourth quarter defensive breakdown. There are 4 guys that they'll play we need to glue ourselves to on the 3pt line (Kyrie, KD, Patty, and Seth) and then we need to pack the paint on drives with the guys guarding Drummond, Brown, Claxton, and Edwards. We still can't give Brown and Edwards wide open shots, but stopping a Kyrie or KD drive/pull-up versus a contested Brown or Edwards shot is a no-brainer.


I guess this is where you hope the team will sit and watch tape and really pay attention to the assignments and not forget in the heat of the moment that they're not supposed to cheat off of x, y, or z?

I've seen stranger things, but I wouldn't count on it.

JBB's best bet for managing defensive mistakes is by controlling who he puts on the floor, but without Allen frankly some of his choices are more the lesser of two evils variety.
toooskies
Lead Assistant
Posts: 5,199
And1: 2,522
Joined: Jul 18, 2013
     

Re: 2021-22 regular season thread 

Post#1385 » by toooskies » Mon Apr 11, 2022 9:59 pm

jbk1234 wrote:
JonFromVA wrote:
jbk1234 wrote:
Whatever the Cavs need to do to fill the role, they need to do to fill the role. Garland is likely to miss 10+ games a season, and if he continues on his current mpg trajectory, disaster is waiting.


Goodwin was like the Cavs 8th choice to be playing backup PG this season ... if they were healthy or worked out: Rubio, Sexton Rondo, Pangos, Frazier, Osman, or LeVert would have been taking care of it.

There's a wide gulf between "not trash" and first choice to be the team's backup PG next season ...


None of Sexton, LeVert, nor Cedi are PGs so if they're on that list, that's your first problem. Rubio was great. I had assumed that Rondo was a break the glass in case of emergency move. None of Frazier, Pangos or Goodwin were capable backups though and I don't feel like a terribly large sample size was needed to figure that out.

While Sexton is not ideally a PG, he has played the position before and if healthy would have been the starting PG after Garland and Rubio went out. He's fine as "our top two guys are day-to-day" insurance. LeVert would probably be the starter today if Garland were out. The big problem is we signed Pangos to a guaranteed contract in the offseason and he just wasn't able to be an actual third string guy.

But if we end up signing Rubio, the developmental guy is going to get minutes early in the season while Rubio rehabs.
jbk1234
Retired Mod
Retired Mod
Posts: 59,098
And1: 36,139
Joined: Dec 22, 2010
 

Re: 2021-22 regular season thread 

Post#1386 » by jbk1234 » Tue Apr 12, 2022 12:16 pm

JonFromVA wrote:
jbk1234 wrote:
JonFromVA wrote:
Goodwin was like the Cavs 8th choice to be playing backup PG this season ... if they were healthy or worked out: Rubio, Sexton Rondo, Pangos, Frazier, Osman, or LeVert would have been taking care of it.

There's a wide gulf between "not trash" and first choice to be the team's backup PG next season ...


None of Sexton, LeVert, nor Cedi are PGs so if they're on that list, that's your first problem. Rubio was great. I had assumed that Rondo was a break the glass in case of emergency move. None of Frazier, Pangos or Goodwin were capable backups though and I don't feel like a terribly large sample size was needed to figure that out.


Or you develop the rest of the offense so they can function with something short of elite PG play at times.


I'd settle for average backup PG play. It's a far easier fix than *developing the offense* to run without a PG. I feel like we have a four year sample size of what running an offense without a PG looks like and it's not pretty.
cbosh4mvp wrote:
Jarret Allen isn’t winning you anything. Garland won’t show up in the playoffs. Mobley is a glorified dunk man. Mitchell has some experience but is a liability on defense. To me, the Cavs are a treadmill team.
JonFromVA
RealGM
Posts: 15,153
And1: 5,032
Joined: Dec 08, 2009
     

Re: 2021-22 regular season thread 

Post#1387 » by JonFromVA » Tue Apr 12, 2022 2:13 pm

jbk1234 wrote:
JonFromVA wrote:
jbk1234 wrote:
None of Sexton, LeVert, nor Cedi are PGs so if they're on that list, that's your first problem. Rubio was great. I had assumed that Rondo was a break the glass in case of emergency move. None of Frazier, Pangos or Goodwin were capable backups though and I don't feel like a terribly large sample size was needed to figure that out.


Or you develop the rest of the offense so they can function with something short of elite PG play at times.


I'd settle for average backup PG play. It's a far easier fix than *developing the offense* to run without a PG. I feel like we have a four year sample size of what running an offense without a PG looks like and it's not pretty.


What I'm afraid of is that an average backup PG is going to struggle if he has to be able to do the things Garland/Rubio do. So, one way or another it's key that we have other threats and the offense expands ... and/or get Ricky back.
jbk1234
Retired Mod
Retired Mod
Posts: 59,098
And1: 36,139
Joined: Dec 22, 2010
 

Re: 2021-22 regular season thread 

Post#1388 » by jbk1234 » Tue Apr 12, 2022 2:16 pm

JonFromVA wrote:
jbk1234 wrote:
JonFromVA wrote:
Or you develop the rest of the offense so they can function with something short of elite PG play at times.


I'd settle for average backup PG play. It's a far easier fix than *developing the offense* to run without a PG. I feel like we have a four year sample size of what running an offense without a PG looks like and it's not pretty.


What I'm afraid of is that an average backup PG is going to struggle if he has to be able to do the things Garland/Rubio do. So, one way or another it's key that we have other threats and the offense expands ... and/or get Ricky back.


Going from Rubio to Goodwin is like falling off the Terminal Tower and hoping the ground floor awning will break your fall. There are a lot of floors in between.
cbosh4mvp wrote:
Jarret Allen isn’t winning you anything. Garland won’t show up in the playoffs. Mobley is a glorified dunk man. Mitchell has some experience but is a liability on defense. To me, the Cavs are a treadmill team.
JonFromVA
RealGM
Posts: 15,153
And1: 5,032
Joined: Dec 08, 2009
     

Re: 2021-22 regular season thread 

Post#1389 » by JonFromVA » Tue Apr 12, 2022 2:33 pm

jbk1234 wrote:
JonFromVA wrote:
jbk1234 wrote:
I'd settle for average backup PG play. It's a far easier fix than *developing the offense* to run without a PG. I feel like we have a four year sample size of what running an offense without a PG looks like and it's not pretty.


What I'm afraid of is that an average backup PG is going to struggle if he has to be able to do the things Garland/Rubio do. So, one way or another it's key that we have other threats and the offense expands ... and/or get Ricky back.


Going from Rubio to Goodwin is like falling off the Terminal Tower and hoping the ground floor awning will break your fall. There are a lot of floors in between.


Nobody has argued Goodwin should be our backup PG next season.
jasonxxx102
Analyst
Posts: 3,444
And1: 3,571
Joined: Feb 13, 2014

Re: 2021-22 regular season thread 

Post#1390 » by jasonxxx102 » Tue Apr 12, 2022 2:52 pm

jbk1234 wrote:
JonFromVA wrote:
jbk1234 wrote:
None of Sexton, LeVert, nor Cedi are PGs so if they're on that list, that's your first problem. Rubio was great. I had assumed that Rondo was a break the glass in case of emergency move. None of Frazier, Pangos or Goodwin were capable backups though and I don't feel like a terribly large sample size was needed to figure that out.


Or you develop the rest of the offense so they can function with something short of elite PG play at times.


I'd settle for average backup PG play. It's a far easier fix than *developing the offense* to run without a PG. I feel like we have a four year sample size of what running an offense without a PG looks like and it's not pretty.


I know he's not a PG but Caris was supposed to be able to come in and take care of the secondary ball handling duties and shot creation.
76ciology wrote:Wouldn't Edey have a better chance of winning the scoring battle against Tatum in the post after a switch than Tatum shooting over Edey's 9'6" standing reach?
:banghead: :banghead: :banghead: :banghead: :banghead:
JonFromVA
RealGM
Posts: 15,153
And1: 5,032
Joined: Dec 08, 2009
     

Re: 2021-22 regular season thread 

Post#1391 » by JonFromVA » Tue Apr 12, 2022 4:13 pm

jasonxxx102 wrote:
jbk1234 wrote:
JonFromVA wrote:
Or you develop the rest of the offense so they can function with something short of elite PG play at times.


I'd settle for average backup PG play. It's a far easier fix than *developing the offense* to run without a PG. I feel like we have a four year sample size of what running an offense without a PG looks like and it's not pretty.


I know he's not a PG but Caris was supposed to be able to come in and take care of the secondary ball handling duties and shot creation.


Injuries really de-railed things, even if all Caris did was run some 2-man game with Allen that could have been enough to keep our offense running and give Garland a break.

Similarly Rubio and Love still had a lot of chemistry, it was 100% luxury to have two guys so used to playing off each other coming off the bench for us. Love will still find ways to get shots up, but it's not the same as when it happens in the flow of the offense.

The benefit of building a core and some continuity is having some muscle memory to fall back on when injuries happen, but you also need systems in place that aren't solely dependent on the awesomeness of key players (like Garland/Rubio on offense, or Allen/Mobley on defense).
jbk1234
Retired Mod
Retired Mod
Posts: 59,098
And1: 36,139
Joined: Dec 22, 2010
 

Re: 2021-22 regular season thread 

Post#1392 » by jbk1234 » Tue Apr 12, 2022 7:09 pm

Read on Twitter
?s=20&t=uZb8mIh98i_IwDdc2PIFjQ

I'm disappointed that there are four fanbases in front of us. Some you all aren't pulling your weight.
cbosh4mvp wrote:
Jarret Allen isn’t winning you anything. Garland won’t show up in the playoffs. Mobley is a glorified dunk man. Mitchell has some experience but is a liability on defense. To me, the Cavs are a treadmill team.
LivingLegend
Head Coach
Posts: 6,990
And1: 7,750
Joined: Jul 30, 2015

Re: 2021-22 regular season thread 

Post#1393 » by LivingLegend » Wed Apr 13, 2022 1:08 pm

jbk1234 wrote:
Read on Twitter
?s=20&t=uZb8mIh98i_IwDdc2PIFjQ

I'm disappointed that there are four fanbases in front of us. Some you all aren't pulling your weight.


Way to go @stillwater
jbk1234
Retired Mod
Retired Mod
Posts: 59,098
And1: 36,139
Joined: Dec 22, 2010
 

Re: 2021-22 regular season thread 

Post#1394 » by jbk1234 » Wed Apr 13, 2022 1:12 pm

LivingLegend wrote:
jbk1234 wrote:
Read on Twitter
?s=20&t=uZb8mIh98i_IwDdc2PIFjQ

I'm disappointed that there are four fanbases in front of us. Some you all aren't pulling your weight.


Way to go @stillwater


:rofl:
cbosh4mvp wrote:
Jarret Allen isn’t winning you anything. Garland won’t show up in the playoffs. Mobley is a glorified dunk man. Mitchell has some experience but is a liability on defense. To me, the Cavs are a treadmill team.
LivingLegend
Head Coach
Posts: 6,990
And1: 7,750
Joined: Jul 30, 2015

Re: 2021-22 regular season thread 

Post#1395 » by LivingLegend » Wed Apr 13, 2022 1:22 pm

toooskies wrote:
jbk1234 wrote:
JonFromVA wrote:
Goodwin was like the Cavs 8th choice to be playing backup PG this season ... if they were healthy or worked out: Rubio, Sexton Rondo, Pangos, Frazier, Osman, or LeVert would have been taking care of it.

There's a wide gulf between "not trash" and first choice to be the team's backup PG next season ...


None of Sexton, LeVert, nor Cedi are PGs so if they're on that list, that's your first problem. Rubio was great. I had assumed that Rondo was a break the glass in case of emergency move. None of Frazier, Pangos or Goodwin were capable backups though and I don't feel like a terribly large sample size was needed to figure that out.

While Sexton is not ideally a PG, he has played the position before and if healthy would have been the starting PG after Garland and Rubio went out. He's fine as "our top two guys are day-to-day" insurance. LeVert would probably be the starter today if Garland were out. The big problem is we signed Pangos to a guaranteed contract in the offseason and he just wasn't able to be an actual third string guy.

But if we end up signing Rubio, the developmental guy is going to get minutes early in the season while Rubio rehabs.


Point 1) I have seen enough of LeVert to know that I want Sexton in his role next season. It would also cost next to nothing to bring Rubio back as strictly a backup PG to run the offense. If LeVerts idea of showing up as a veteran in the biggest games is going 2 for 86 shooting with 9 turnovers then hard pass. Even bad Sexton isnt THAT bad. The Cavs also desperatly miss Sextons fearlessness. Too many timid/passive/soft/unathletic players on this roster especially at the wings/bigs.

Point 2) I know the Cavs are young, but Im starting to questionin their effort/toughness. Too many games, far too many games, do they just come out with no energy and flat. Like last night. They are 1 step slow, they turn the ball over a ton and the absolute lack of ANYBODY that can make a shot is astounding.

Point 3) Im also dangerously close to throwing in the towel on Okoro--as much as it pains me to say. But they might have to look to package him in a deal next year at the deadline. Great kid, great effort, but his ability to provide absolute nothing on offense when the Cavs are desperately looking for a spark/points kills this team. Like, I dont expect 25+ from him, but almost 2 full years in the league--I need at least 15 every night from a top 5 pick in the draft.

I believe his defense has gotten a bit overrated and is replaceable with a 2nd round 'specialist' type of pick. If the Cavs are serious about winning next season and making noise in the playoffs--then they simply cannot be playing Okoro as anything more than a situational role player. We cant have timid shooting Okoro, timid shooting LeVert, timid shooting Stevens and timid shooting Osman on the court. They cant keep putting up with this vanishing act he does where I forget he is even on the court for 3 qtrs at a time.

Thats where a guy like Sexton who plays with zero fear would be great. We miss him. Badly.

The #1 goal in this offseaon after looking at young rosters like TOR/MIN is to get more freaking athletic on the wings and guys who can take/make shots. LeVert/Osman/Stevens/Okoro is fine to get through the Regular season with--but is a disaster of a situation come playoff/meaningful games time.
jbk1234
Retired Mod
Retired Mod
Posts: 59,098
And1: 36,139
Joined: Dec 22, 2010
 

Re: 2021-22 regular season thread 

Post#1396 » by jbk1234 » Wed Apr 13, 2022 2:19 pm

LivingLegend wrote:
toooskies wrote:
jbk1234 wrote:
None of Sexton, LeVert, nor Cedi are PGs so if they're on that list, that's your first problem. Rubio was great. I had assumed that Rondo was a break the glass in case of emergency move. None of Frazier, Pangos or Goodwin were capable backups though and I don't feel like a terribly large sample size was needed to figure that out.

While Sexton is not ideally a PG, he has played the position before and if healthy would have been the starting PG after Garland and Rubio went out. He's fine as "our top two guys are day-to-day" insurance. LeVert would probably be the starter today if Garland were out. The big problem is we signed Pangos to a guaranteed contract in the offseason and he just wasn't able to be an actual third string guy.

But if we end up signing Rubio, the developmental guy is going to get minutes early in the season while Rubio rehabs.


Point 1) I have seen enough of LeVert to know that I want Sexton in his role next season. It would also cost next to nothing to bring Rubio back as strictly a backup PG to run the offense. If LeVerts idea of showing up as a veteran in the biggest games is going 2 for 86 shooting with 9 turnovers then hard pass. Even bad Sexton isnt THAT bad. The Cavs also desperatly miss Sextons fearlessness. Too many timid/passive/soft/unathletic players on this roster especially at the wings/bigs.

Point 2) I know the Cavs are young, but Im starting to questionin their effort/toughness. Too many games, far too many games, do they just come out with no energy and flat. Like last night. They are 1 step slow, they turn the ball over a ton and the absolute lack of ANYBODY that can make a shot is astounding.

Point 3) Im also dangerously close to throwing in the towel on Okoro--as much as it pains me to say. But they might have to look to package him in a deal next year at the deadline. Great kid, great effort, but his ability to provide absolute nothing on offense when the Cavs are desperately looking for a spark/points kills this team. Like, I dont expect 25+ from him, but almost 2 full years in the league--I need at least 15 every night from a top 5 pick in the draft.

I believe his defense has gotten a bit overrated and is replaceable with a 2nd round 'specialist' type of pick. If the Cavs are serious about winning next season and making noise in the playoffs--then they simply cannot be playing Okoro as anything more than a situational role player. We cant have timid shooting Okoro, timid shooting LeVert, timid shooting Stevens and timid shooting Osman on the court. They cant keep putting up with this vanishing act he does where I forget he is even on the court for 3 qtrs at a time.

Thats where a guy like Sexton who plays with zero fear would be great. We miss him. Badly.

The #1 goal in this offseaon after looking at young rosters like TOR/MIN is to get more freaking athletic on the wings and guys who can take/make shots. LeVert/Osman/Stevens/Okoro is fine to get through the Regular season with--but is a disaster of a situation come playoff/meaningful games time.


As to point one, Sexton isn't close to LeVert defensively. There's a reason Okoro was closing games even when Sexton was healthy. So it's not going to be a simple upgrade. There's going to be a definite tradeoff there. More importantly, Sexton is a better shooter than LeVert, but he still chooses to drive 75% of the time. That has to stop if he's to have any chance of starting on the Cavs. As we don't know if Sexton can, or will stop playing that way, and he's a RFA, it's a problem.

Allen and Mobley aren't going anywhere so whoever is playing at SG and SF needs to be a reliable and willing shooter. You can't shrink the court down to 15 feet for the opposing defense, where even Garland, as good as he is, is limited in how much offense he can create with four defenders around the painted area.

The key to building a good roster is to identify the best players on it, ask if they're good enough to build around, and then if they are, to go out and actually get players who compliment what they do. If Okoro doesn't come back next season able to shoot, and not just from the corner, then he's not a long term answer in the starting unit. I think LeVert is going to prove suboptimal in a line up with Allen and Mobley as well.

I wouldn't pay starter's money to Sexton based on best case projections. The likelihood is that he's not going to want to be a catch and shoot player which mean he's a sixth man on the Cavs. The absolute worse thing the Cavs can do is foreclose the possibility of adding a better fit later with cap space. If they have a sixth man making starter's money and they're trying to sell *it's not him, it's us* to a potential trade partner, it won't end well. Same goes with LeVert. Based on the evidence provided to date, his fit doesn't warrant an extension.

In any event, I'm way, way over asking JBB to do the impossible and game plan against the type of defenses we saw last night with multiple guys protecting the rim because every wing on the roster can't friggin shoot. I suspect the answer at the 2, and possibly the 3 as well, aren't on the roster yet.
cbosh4mvp wrote:
Jarret Allen isn’t winning you anything. Garland won’t show up in the playoffs. Mobley is a glorified dunk man. Mitchell has some experience but is a liability on defense. To me, the Cavs are a treadmill team.
LivingLegend
Head Coach
Posts: 6,990
And1: 7,750
Joined: Jul 30, 2015

Re: 2021-22 regular season thread 

Post#1397 » by LivingLegend » Wed Apr 13, 2022 2:47 pm

jbk1234 wrote:
LivingLegend wrote:
toooskies wrote:While Sexton is not ideally a PG, he has played the position before and if healthy would have been the starting PG after Garland and Rubio went out. He's fine as "our top two guys are day-to-day" insurance. LeVert would probably be the starter today if Garland were out. The big problem is we signed Pangos to a guaranteed contract in the offseason and he just wasn't able to be an actual third string guy.

But if we end up signing Rubio, the developmental guy is going to get minutes early in the season while Rubio rehabs.


Point 1) I have seen enough of LeVert to know that I want Sexton in his role next season. It would also cost next to nothing to bring Rubio back as strictly a backup PG to run the offense. If LeVerts idea of showing up as a veteran in the biggest games is going 2 for 86 shooting with 9 turnovers then hard pass. Even bad Sexton isnt THAT bad. The Cavs also desperatly miss Sextons fearlessness. Too many timid/passive/soft/unathletic players on this roster especially at the wings/bigs.

Point 2) I know the Cavs are young, but Im starting to questionin their effort/toughness. Too many games, far too many games, do they just come out with no energy and flat. Like last night. They are 1 step slow, they turn the ball over a ton and the absolute lack of ANYBODY that can make a shot is astounding.

Point 3) Im also dangerously close to throwing in the towel on Okoro--as much as it pains me to say. But they might have to look to package him in a deal next year at the deadline. Great kid, great effort, but his ability to provide absolute nothing on offense when the Cavs are desperately looking for a spark/points kills this team. Like, I dont expect 25+ from him, but almost 2 full years in the league--I need at least 15 every night from a top 5 pick in the draft.

I believe his defense has gotten a bit overrated and is replaceable with a 2nd round 'specialist' type of pick. If the Cavs are serious about winning next season and making noise in the playoffs--then they simply cannot be playing Okoro as anything more than a situational role player. We cant have timid shooting Okoro, timid shooting LeVert, timid shooting Stevens and timid shooting Osman on the court. They cant keep putting up with this vanishing act he does where I forget he is even on the court for 3 qtrs at a time.

Thats where a guy like Sexton who plays with zero fear would be great. We miss him. Badly.

The #1 goal in this offseaon after looking at young rosters like TOR/MIN is to get more freaking athletic on the wings and guys who can take/make shots. LeVert/Osman/Stevens/Okoro is fine to get through the Regular season with--but is a disaster of a situation come playoff/meaningful games time.


As to point one, Sexton isn't close to LeVert defensively. There's a reason Okoro was closing games even when Sexton was healthy. So it's not going to be a simple upgrade. There's going to be a definite tradeoff there. More importantly, Sexton is a better shooter than LeVert, but he still chooses to drive 75% of the time. That has to stop if he's to have any chance of starting on the Cavs. As we don't know if Sexton can, or will stop playing that way, and he's a RFA, it's a problem.

Allen and Mobley aren't going anywhere so whoever is playing at SG and SF needs to be a reliable and willing shooter. You can't shrink the court down to 15 feet for the opposing defense, where even Garland, as good as he is, is limited in how much offense he can create with four defenders around the painted area.

The key to building a good roster is to identify the best players on it, ask if they're good enough to build around, and then if they are, to go out and actually get players who compliment what they do. If Okoro doesn't come back next season able to shoot, and not just from the corner, then he's not a long term answer in the starting unit. I think LeVert is going to prove suboptimal in a line up with Allen and Mobley as well.

I wouldn't pay starter's money to Sexton based on best case projections. The likelihood is that he's not going to want to be a catch and shoot player which mean he's a sixth man on the Cavs. The absolute worse thing the Cavs can do is foreclose the possibility of adding a better fit later with cap space. If they have a sixth man making starter's money and they're trying to sell *it's not him, it's us* to a potential trade partner, it won't end well. Same goes with LeVert. Based on the evidence provided to date, his fit doesn't warrant an extension.

In any event, I'm way, way over asking JBB to do the impossible and game plan against the type of defenses we saw last night with multiple guys protecting the rim because every wing on the roster can't friggin shoot. I suspect the answer at the 2, and possibly the 3 as well, aren't on the roster yet.


Yeah there is a tradeoff with Sexton/LeVert but after seeing LeVert now in a large sample--Im 100% willing to swap defense for offense. I have found myself saying this a lot recently, but a game like last night is where you desperately need Sexton and his 'give me the ball Im attacking/scoring' prowess.

A guy like JR Smith sort of was if that makes sense. Just a guy who can come in the game, attack fearlessly and score 20pts in 25min and spark the offense. They dont have that right now. They are so dependant on Garland creating/scoring on the perimeter it is sickning because we have just rolled over on the fact Okoro is useless on offense. Its like he doesnt exist.

The other thing I have seen when the Cavs have played these tougher opponents recently is also their lack of athleticism from PG, SG and SF. A lot of the time they just get straight up out-athleted by opponents. I need a wing who is built like a brick *** house who has a 40" vertical to offset some of this.

Far too often do the Cavs just straight up get pushed out of the way, or ran around or jumped over by these strong athletic wings.
JonFromVA
RealGM
Posts: 15,153
And1: 5,032
Joined: Dec 08, 2009
     

Re: 2021-22 regular season thread 

Post#1398 » by JonFromVA » Wed Apr 13, 2022 2:56 pm

Let's not be too quick to jump to conclusions after this team's first taste of playoff-level competition.

For instance, in spite of how ugly LeVert looked trying to score in the paint he still added 7 rebounds, 7 assists, and 3 steals.

We pretty much have to play better across the board, it's amazing the game was as close as it was.

As for Isaac, I'm still hoping our patience with him will eventually be rewarded. I mean, I'd hope he at least would have the same kind of impact that Bruce Brown did for the Nets, but Brown as a rookie 4 years ago was older than Isaac is now. Same for another comp ... Matisse Thybulle.

I wish we could have seen Collin in this environment, but it's possible he would have been driving recklessly in the paint and turning the ball over too.
LivingLegend
Head Coach
Posts: 6,990
And1: 7,750
Joined: Jul 30, 2015

Re: 2021-22 regular season thread 

Post#1399 » by LivingLegend » Wed Apr 13, 2022 3:10 pm

JonFromVA wrote:Let's not be too quick to jump to conclusions after this team's first taste of playoff-level competition.

For instance, in spite of how ugly LeVert looked trying to score in the paint he still added 7 rebounds, 7 assists, and 3 steals.

We pretty much have to play better across the board, it's amazing the game was as close as it was.

As for Isaac, I'm still hoping our patience with him will eventually be rewarded. I mean, I'd hope he at least would have the same kind of impact that Bruce Brown did for the Nets, but Brown as a rookie 4 years ago was older than Isaac is now. Same for another comp ... Matisse Thybulle.

I wish we could have seen Collin in this environment, but it's possible he would have been driving recklessly in the paint and turning the ball over too.


We'll see--Okoros I feel like is just settling at this point and its worrysome. Like, he doesnt even try to get involved in the offense. Its like he knows his role and stays away from it. I dont know if he can magically turn it around in one offseason.

Either way, get me a 6'9" beefcake with a 40" vertical on the wing next season. Somebody, anybody. I cant keep watching Cedi/Lauri look like turnstiles on the perimeter because they dont have the strength or footspeed to guard anybody.

I keep going back to Grant. How do we get a guy like that on this team. I need that. I need itttttt. TJ Warren is a FA this offseason. Maybe go after him and hope he can regain his form being healthy now
jbk1234
Retired Mod
Retired Mod
Posts: 59,098
And1: 36,139
Joined: Dec 22, 2010
 

Re: 2021-22 regular season thread 

Post#1400 » by jbk1234 » Wed Apr 13, 2022 3:26 pm

LivingLegend wrote:
jbk1234 wrote:
LivingLegend wrote:
Point 1) I have seen enough of LeVert to know that I want Sexton in his role next season. It would also cost next to nothing to bring Rubio back as strictly a backup PG to run the offense. If LeVerts idea of showing up as a veteran in the biggest games is going 2 for 86 shooting with 9 turnovers then hard pass. Even bad Sexton isnt THAT bad. The Cavs also desperatly miss Sextons fearlessness. Too many timid/passive/soft/unathletic players on this roster especially at the wings/bigs.

Point 2) I know the Cavs are young, but Im starting to questionin their effort/toughness. Too many games, far too many games, do they just come out with no energy and flat. Like last night. They are 1 step slow, they turn the ball over a ton and the absolute lack of ANYBODY that can make a shot is astounding.

Point 3) Im also dangerously close to throwing in the towel on Okoro--as much as it pains me to say. But they might have to look to package him in a deal next year at the deadline. Great kid, great effort, but his ability to provide absolute nothing on offense when the Cavs are desperately looking for a spark/points kills this team. Like, I dont expect 25+ from him, but almost 2 full years in the league--I need at least 15 every night from a top 5 pick in the draft.

I believe his defense has gotten a bit overrated and is replaceable with a 2nd round 'specialist' type of pick. If the Cavs are serious about winning next season and making noise in the playoffs--then they simply cannot be playing Okoro as anything more than a situational role player. We cant have timid shooting Okoro, timid shooting LeVert, timid shooting Stevens and timid shooting Osman on the court. They cant keep putting up with this vanishing act he does where I forget he is even on the court for 3 qtrs at a time.

Thats where a guy like Sexton who plays with zero fear would be great. We miss him. Badly.

The #1 goal in this offseaon after looking at young rosters like TOR/MIN is to get more freaking athletic on the wings and guys who can take/make shots. LeVert/Osman/Stevens/Okoro is fine to get through the Regular season with--but is a disaster of a situation come playoff/meaningful games time.


As to point one, Sexton isn't close to LeVert defensively. There's a reason Okoro was closing games even when Sexton was healthy. So it's not going to be a simple upgrade. There's going to be a definite tradeoff there. More importantly, Sexton is a better shooter than LeVert, but he still chooses to drive 75% of the time. That has to stop if he's to have any chance of starting on the Cavs. As we don't know if Sexton can, or will stop playing that way, and he's a RFA, it's a problem.

Allen and Mobley aren't going anywhere so whoever is playing at SG and SF needs to be a reliable and willing shooter. You can't shrink the court down to 15 feet for the opposing defense, where even Garland, as good as he is, is limited in how much offense he can create with four defenders around the painted area.

The key to building a good roster is to identify the best players on it, ask if they're good enough to build around, and then if they are, to go out and actually get players who compliment what they do. If Okoro doesn't come back next season able to shoot, and not just from the corner, then he's not a long term answer in the starting unit. I think LeVert is going to prove suboptimal in a line up with Allen and Mobley as well.

I wouldn't pay starter's money to Sexton based on best case projections. The likelihood is that he's not going to want to be a catch and shoot player which mean he's a sixth man on the Cavs. The absolute worse thing the Cavs can do is foreclose the possibility of adding a better fit later with cap space. If they have a sixth man making starter's money and they're trying to sell *it's not him, it's us* to a potential trade partner, it won't end well. Same goes with LeVert. Based on the evidence provided to date, his fit doesn't warrant an extension.

In any event, I'm way, way over asking JBB to do the impossible and game plan against the type of defenses we saw last night with multiple guys protecting the rim because every wing on the roster can't friggin shoot. I suspect the answer at the 2, and possibly the 3 as well, aren't on the roster yet.


Yeah there is a tradeoff with Sexton/LeVert but after seeing LeVert now in a large sample--Im 100% willing to swap defense for offense. I have found myself saying this a lot recently, but a game like last night is where you desperately need Sexton and his 'give me the ball Im attacking/scoring' prowess.

A guy like JR Smith sort of was if that makes sense. Just a guy who can come in the game, attack fearlessly and score 20pts in 25min and spark the offense. They dont have that right now. They are so dependant on Garland creating/scoring on the perimeter it is sickning because we have just rolled over on the fact Okoro is useless on offense. Its like he doesnt exist.

The other thing I have seen when the Cavs have played these tougher opponents recently is also their lack of athleticism from PG, SG and SF. A lot of the time they just get straight up out-athleted by opponents. I need a wing who is built like a brick *** house who has a 40" vertical to offset some of this.

Far too often do the Cavs just straight up get pushed out of the way, or ran around or jumped over by these strong athletic wings.


Here's the thing, I've seen Sexton have enough stinkers against teams with multiple rim protectors to be quite skeptical that he would've been better than LeVert last night. His primary weapon is his speed which he relies upon to beat the defenders to their spots. When a team overloads the painted area, he has the same struggles. There's a really big sample size on that one as well.
cbosh4mvp wrote:
Jarret Allen isn’t winning you anything. Garland won’t show up in the playoffs. Mobley is a glorified dunk man. Mitchell has some experience but is a liability on defense. To me, the Cavs are a treadmill team.

Return to Cleveland Cavaliers