2021-22 NBA Season Discussion

[falcolombardi]

When I watch KAT, I tend to see a guy who struggles to process the speed of the information of the game and make good decisions in a timely manner. People tend to call this choking, and there's truth to the idea that players get rattled, but I also just think we need to recognize that to some degree this is a talent just like height, hops, and shooting are.

On one end of the spectrum you have Jokic, on the other end you've got guys who couldn't even get to the NBA. KAT is below average relative to NBA stars on this front, and that's just how it goes.

As I say this, it's certainly true that it's common for guys to get better at this with experience, and also get better at handling pressure with experience. But I think we'd have seen more progress from KAT by now if it was in the cards for him.

In the end, a guy like KAT seems to be a guy who should be in a role where his decision making demands are simplified, and so long as you're able to do this - because you have other payers digesting decision making complexity - he ought to be able to valuable even against tough playoff opponents.

I will say though, KAT doesn't do himself any favors when he talks about being the greatest big man shooter in history. In a Kyle Korver-type sense, it's probably true, but it puts pressure on him that he doesn't respond well too. I feel similarly about Paul George talking trash - you have to know what you respond best to and what gets in your way. Some guys hype themselves up by bragging, others just make their mental state more fragile.

Great post about on court decision making. It is a talent, something individuals have different innate capacities rather than something everyone can learn. And on-court decision making doesn't necessarily relate to overall intelligence.

Chris Webber is the best example of that. Webber always comes off as a reasonably intelligent, insightful man in interviews. I wouldn't be overly concerned if I needed to have him take a school test for me in my youth. But his on court decision making, the application of his skills and athleticism to help his team wins was always disappointing.

alsp russel westbrook

he was a brilliant student and his writings about social justicr, like his letter to oklahoma governor asking for clemency for a queationable deathrow inmate

[Statlanta]

Odds are that KAT will figure it out at some point, but if anything, last night was regression for him from a postseason performance perspective, and that is a very low bar he had to limbo under. He was embarassingly awful in his one previous PS appearance against Houston in 2018. He's had a lot of time to mature since then.

Can you really mature if you don't have that type of pressure at all in those 4 years?
Facing the Orlando's, OKC's and Houston's of the world don't prepare you for the type of resilience that say Paul George had to face getting owned in the Western Conference playoffs in subsequent years before being redeemed last year

[falcolombardi]

ehh i wouldnt write off kat so quickly after 1 game

at least let him have a full series before being judged as a playoffs performee

[sp6r=underrated]

Strange Question about Paul George: did he peak on a team no one will remember him playing for?

Has that ever happened before?

[mikejames23]

Can't praise Clips enough for taking out KAT so effectively. It didn't end up working out and they lost the game, but overall Clips put forth a solid effort to try and win it.

[falcolombardi]

Strange Question about Paul George: did he peak on a team no one will remember him playing for?

Has that ever happened before?

do you mean okc?

[falcolombardi]

jamaalstar made a interesting questuon in the general board about the "death" of small ball

Feels like we've been in the small ball era forever. Almost every 6'9"+ dude that would have been a power forward as recently as 2010 has been fully converted into a small-ball center. Big wings are almost exclusively playing the 4 and the biggest ones get used at the 5 when they can hack it defensively. The Nic Batums and PJ Tuckers of the world no longer log a single minute on the wing.

But then the 2021-2022 season happened. We started the season laughing at the Cavs for starting a Lauri Markannen-Evan Mobley-Jarrett Allen frontcourt. But then the Cavs were a top 3 defense in the league (until injuries steadily ate them alive). Fans started warming to the idea that maybe Mobley wasn't best utilized as a skinny 5, because next to another mobile big in Jarrett Allen, they could create a monstrous defensive advantage.

But while the Cavs got the buzz for this, this trend was quietly happening all over the league:

- Boston became the best defense in the league (and best team in the second half of the season) by figuring out how to pair Robert Williams III and Al Horford, 2 guys who have been exclusively playing center for years.

- Memphis fans have been begging for JJJ to play the 5, "his true position". But look at how good Memphis has been with Trip and Steven Adams on the court together.

- Denver's best lineup featured Jokic flanked by 2 power forwards: Aaron Gordon and Jeff Green (another guy who had converted to a permanent small ball 5 in his past stops).

- The New Orleans Pelicans saved their season and made the play-in by starting Jaxson Hayes next to Jonas Valanciunas.

- The Raptors are, on one hand, the completion of the small ball dream: playing 5x 6'7"+ dudes at the same time. But the Raptors also, despite not having a really big guy on the roster, built they bench completely out of small ball centers, and had plenty of lineups with 3 or more of Precious Achiuwa, Chris Boucher, Khem Birch, Pascal Siakam. Scottie Barnes is a small ball center. Until this year (when they used him mostly as a 2) OG Anunoby was supposed to be the small ball 5 of their future. Thaddeus Young was crushing it as a small ball 5 in Chicago last year.


Small ball isn't over. Miami, Phoenix, Golden State, Utah and the Clippers are generally playing tons of wings around singular bigs and having a ton of success with that. But I'm sure I'm not alone in noticing how many teams found their edge with jumbo lineups this year.

Do you think this trend will grow? Or is it a flash in the pan?

whay do you think?

[sp6r=underrated]

Strange Question about Paul George: did he peak on a team no one will remember him playing for?

Has that ever happened before?

do you mean okc?

Yeah, I don't think it is crazy to argue that was his peak. And in 20 years I doubt anyone will ever remember him playing there.

[sp6r=underrated]

jamaalstar made a interesting questuon in the general board about the "death" of small ball

Feels like we've been in the small ball era forever. Almost every 6'9"+ dude that would have been a power forward as recently as 2010 has been fully converted into a small-ball center. Big wings are almost exclusively playing the 4 and the biggest ones get used at the 5 when they can hack it defensively. The Nic Batums and PJ Tuckers of the world no longer log a single minute on the wing.

But then the 2021-2022 season happened. We started the season laughing at the Cavs for starting a Lauri Markannen-Evan Mobley-Jarrett Allen frontcourt. But then the Cavs were a top 3 defense in the league (until injuries steadily ate them alive). Fans started warming to the idea that maybe Mobley wasn't best utilized as a skinny 5, because next to another mobile big in Jarrett Allen, they could create a monstrous defensive advantage.

But while the Cavs got the buzz for this, this trend was quietly happening all over the league:

- Boston became the best defense in the league (and best team in the second half of the season) by figuring out how to pair Robert Williams III and Al Horford, 2 guys who have been exclusively playing center for years.

- Memphis fans have been begging for JJJ to play the 5, "his true position". But look at how good Memphis has been with Trip and Steven Adams on the court together.

- Denver's best lineup featured Jokic flanked by 2 power forwards: Aaron Gordon and Jeff Green (another guy who had converted to a permanent small ball 5 in his past stops).

- The New Orleans Pelicans saved their season and made the play-in by starting Jaxson Hayes next to Jonas Valanciunas.

- The Raptors are, on one hand, the completion of the small ball dream: playing 5x 6'7"+ dudes at the same time. But the Raptors also, despite not having a really big guy on the roster, built they bench completely out of small ball centers, and had plenty of lineups with 3 or more of Precious Achiuwa, Chris Boucher, Khem Birch, Pascal Siakam. Scottie Barnes is a small ball center. Until this year (when they used him mostly as a 2) OG Anunoby was supposed to be the small ball 5 of their future. Thaddeus Young was crushing it as a small ball 5 in Chicago last year.


Small ball isn't over. Miami, Phoenix, Golden State, Utah and the Clippers are generally playing tons of wings around singular bigs and having a ton of success with that. But I'm sure I'm not alone in noticing how many teams found their edge with jumbo lineups this year.

Do you think this trend will grow? Or is it a flash in the pan?

whay do you think?

Small ball had a market advantage because most 7 fters growing up weren't trained to shoot from distance and weren't comfortable defending at the perimeter. Also a lot of the old 7 fters had a little too much muscle mass which limited their rotation abilities. The benefits outweighed the cost of lower team height, traditionally a big factor in basketball success.

The new crop of 7 fters have been trained at both. They can shoot 3s and they are much more skilled at rotating out. so it is possible the advantage of going super small isn't quite as large as it used to be.

[falcolombardi]

jamaalstar made a interesting questuon in the general board about the "death" of small ball

Feels like we've been in the small ball era forever. Almost every 6'9"+ dude that would have been a power forward as recently as 2010 has been fully converted into a small-ball center. Big wings are almost exclusively playing the 4 and the biggest ones get used at the 5 when they can hack it defensively. The Nic Batums and PJ Tuckers of the world no longer log a single minute on the wing.

But then the 2021-2022 season happened. We started the season laughing at the Cavs for starting a Lauri Markannen-Evan Mobley-Jarrett Allen frontcourt. But then the Cavs were a top 3 defense in the league (until injuries steadily ate them alive). Fans started warming to the idea that maybe Mobley wasn't best utilized as a skinny 5, because next to another mobile big in Jarrett Allen, they could create a monstrous defensive advantage.

But while the Cavs got the buzz for this, this trend was quietly happening all over the league:

- Boston became the best defense in the league (and best team in the second half of the season) by figuring out how to pair Robert Williams III and Al Horford, 2 guys who have been exclusively playing center for years.

- Memphis fans have been begging for JJJ to play the 5, "his true position". But look at how good Memphis has been with Trip and Steven Adams on the court together.

- Denver's best lineup featured Jokic flanked by 2 power forwards: Aaron Gordon and Jeff Green (another guy who had converted to a permanent small ball 5 in his past stops).

- The New Orleans Pelicans saved their season and made the play-in by starting Jaxson Hayes next to Jonas Valanciunas.

- The Raptors are, on one hand, the completion of the small ball dream: playing 5x 6'7"+ dudes at the same time. But the Raptors also, despite not having a really big guy on the roster, built they bench completely out of small ball centers, and had plenty of lineups with 3 or more of Precious Achiuwa, Chris Boucher, Khem Birch, Pascal Siakam. Scottie Barnes is a small ball center. Until this year (when they used him mostly as a 2) OG Anunoby was supposed to be the small ball 5 of their future. Thaddeus Young was crushing it as a small ball 5 in Chicago last year.


Small ball isn't over. Miami, Phoenix, Golden State, Utah and the Clippers are generally playing tons of wings around singular bigs and having a ton of success with that. But I'm sure I'm not alone in noticing how many teams found their edge with jumbo lineups this year.

Do you think this trend will grow? Or is it a flash in the pan?

whay do you think?

Small ball had a market advantage because most 7 fters growing up weren't trained to shoot from distance and weren't comfortable defending at the perimeter. Also a lot of the old 7 fters had a little too much muscle mass which limited their rotation abilities. The benefits outweighed the cost of lower team height, traditionally a big factor in basketball success.

The new crop of 7 fters have been trained at both. They can shoot 3s and they are much more skilled at rotating out. so it is possible the advantage of going super small isn't quite as large as it used to be.

i would argue small players akways will be more skilled and athletic than their taller counterparts to varying degrees

there are just so many more guys under 6'7 (let alone under 6'4) than 7 footers in the world that more outlier athletes, basketball minds and supremely skilled perimeter guys will prop up

sometimes the gap will be bigger (like the one caused by 3 point shooting) until bigger guys catch up in the new changes in basketball

also i believe there are points of diminishing returns with size, a 7'4 hyper athlete is not necesarrily better suited for basketball than a 6'11 hyper athlete since at that point the injury risk and mobility loss may offset the height advantage

[parsnips33]

I think generally wingspan is the more important number than height

[AussieBuck]

jamaalstar made a interesting questuon in the general board about the "death" of small ball

Feels like we've been in the small ball era forever. Almost every 6'9"+ dude that would have been a power forward as recently as 2010 has been fully converted into a small-ball center. Big wings are almost exclusively playing the 4 and the biggest ones get used at the 5 when they can hack it defensively. The Nic Batums and PJ Tuckers of the world no longer log a single minute on the wing.

But then the 2021-2022 season happened. We started the season laughing at the Cavs for starting a Lauri Markannen-Evan Mobley-Jarrett Allen frontcourt. But then the Cavs were a top 3 defense in the league (until injuries steadily ate them alive). Fans started warming to the idea that maybe Mobley wasn't best utilized as a skinny 5, because next to another mobile big in Jarrett Allen, they could create a monstrous defensive advantage.

But while the Cavs got the buzz for this, this trend was quietly happening all over the league:

- Boston became the best defense in the league (and best team in the second half of the season) by figuring out how to pair Robert Williams III and Al Horford, 2 guys who have been exclusively playing center for years.

- Memphis fans have been begging for JJJ to play the 5, "his true position". But look at how good Memphis has been with Trip and Steven Adams on the court together.

- Denver's best lineup featured Jokic flanked by 2 power forwards: Aaron Gordon and Jeff Green (another guy who had converted to a permanent small ball 5 in his past stops).

- The New Orleans Pelicans saved their season and made the play-in by starting Jaxson Hayes next to Jonas Valanciunas.

- The Raptors are, on one hand, the completion of the small ball dream: playing 5x 6'7"+ dudes at the same time. But the Raptors also, despite not having a really big guy on the roster, built they bench completely out of small ball centers, and had plenty of lineups with 3 or more of Precious Achiuwa, Chris Boucher, Khem Birch, Pascal Siakam. Scottie Barnes is a small ball center. Until this year (when they used him mostly as a 2) OG Anunoby was supposed to be the small ball 5 of their future. Thaddeus Young was crushing it as a small ball 5 in Chicago last year.


Small ball isn't over. Miami, Phoenix, Golden State, Utah and the Clippers are generally playing tons of wings around singular bigs and having a ton of success with that. But I'm sure I'm not alone in noticing how many teams found their edge with jumbo lineups this year.

Do you think this trend will grow? Or is it a flash in the pan?

whay do you think?

Think it's super weird that post doesn't mention the Bucks at all after winning a title by just being bigger than everyone else and starting PJ Tucker at the 2.

[Colbinii]

jamaalstar made a interesting questuon in the general board about the "death" of small ball

Feels like we've been in the small ball era forever. Almost every 6'9"+ dude that would have been a power forward as recently as 2010 has been fully converted into a small-ball center. Big wings are almost exclusively playing the 4 and the biggest ones get used at the 5 when they can hack it defensively. The Nic Batums and PJ Tuckers of the world no longer log a single minute on the wing.

But then the 2021-2022 season happened. We started the season laughing at the Cavs for starting a Lauri Markannen-Evan Mobley-Jarrett Allen frontcourt. But then the Cavs were a top 3 defense in the league (until injuries steadily ate them alive). Fans started warming to the idea that maybe Mobley wasn't best utilized as a skinny 5, because next to another mobile big in Jarrett Allen, they could create a monstrous defensive advantage.

But while the Cavs got the buzz for this, this trend was quietly happening all over the league:

- Boston became the best defense in the league (and best team in the second half of the season) by figuring out how to pair Robert Williams III and Al Horford, 2 guys who have been exclusively playing center for years.

- Memphis fans have been begging for JJJ to play the 5, "his true position". But look at how good Memphis has been with Trip and Steven Adams on the court together.

- Denver's best lineup featured Jokic flanked by 2 power forwards: Aaron Gordon and Jeff Green (another guy who had converted to a permanent small ball 5 in his past stops).

- The New Orleans Pelicans saved their season and made the play-in by starting Jaxson Hayes next to Jonas Valanciunas.

- The Raptors are, on one hand, the completion of the small ball dream: playing 5x 6'7"+ dudes at the same time. But the Raptors also, despite not having a really big guy on the roster, built they bench completely out of small ball centers, and had plenty of lineups with 3 or more of Precious Achiuwa, Chris Boucher, Khem Birch, Pascal Siakam. Scottie Barnes is a small ball center. Until this year (when they used him mostly as a 2) OG Anunoby was supposed to be the small ball 5 of their future. Thaddeus Young was crushing it as a small ball 5 in Chicago last year.


Small ball isn't over. Miami, Phoenix, Golden State, Utah and the Clippers are generally playing tons of wings around singular bigs and having a ton of success with that. But I'm sure I'm not alone in noticing how many teams found their edge with jumbo lineups this year.

Do you think this trend will grow? Or is it a flash in the pan?

whay do you think?

Think it's super weird that post doesn't mention the Bucks at all after winning a title by just being bigger than everyone else and starting PJ Tucker at the 2.

The Lakers did the same in 2020 as well.

Raptors in 2019 also had line-ups with Gasol/Ibaka.

[falcolombardi]

if hawks advance they will be a scary matchup for miami, too much offensive firepower to ve comfortable

similar to nets in that regard actually, maybe scariest 7/8 seed combo ever if hawks advance

lowkey the 1/2 vs 7/8 matchups may be a lot closer than the 3/4 vs 5/6 matchups, really unusual

[falcolombardi]

general board has a jokic vs bird comparision thread and people there are ripping down on my poor man jokic

like not just saying they think bird was better but thst jokic is not in the same universe as him and larry would be way, way, way better than hin today

it reafirms my theory thst active players dont get respect until they are close to retirement

[parsnips33]

What is it with the Nuggets and shoving dudes in the back for no reason? Dangerous and has nothing to do with basketball

[falcolombardi]

What is it with the Nuggets and shoving dudes in the back for no reason? Dangerous and has nothing to do with basketball

did somethingh happem with nuggets i am not aware of?

[Bidofo]

What is it with the Nuggets and shoving dudes in the back for no reason? Dangerous and has nothing to do with basketball

Jokic's shove was far from "for no reason"

[70sFan]

general board has a jokic vs bird comparision thread and people there are ripping down on my poor man jokic

like not just saying they think bird was better but thst jokic is not in the same universe as him and larry would be way, way, way better than hin today

it reafirms my theory thst active players dont get respect until they are close to retirement

To be fair, I remember a thread about Bird this season and some people argued that Bird would be another Ryan Anderson today and that he wouldn't be anything special as a shooter now.

[Dutchball97]

general board has a jokic vs bird comparision thread and people there are ripping down on my poor man jokic

like not just saying they think bird was better but thst jokic is not in the same universe as him and larry would be way, way, way better than hin today

it reafirms my theory thst active players dont get respect until they are close to retirement

Looking at what Bird accomplished as is and then taking away his big injury and placing him in an era where his skills will likely be even more valuable compared to Jokic who hasn't had a real dominant, deep post-season run yet sounds like an easy decision to me.

Like I agree it is dumb people act Jokic isn't even worthy of being in the conversation but picking current Jokic over a fully healthy Bird with modern nutrition and training also seems like recency bias to me.