Better stretch: 05-2011 Nash vs 11-2017 Chris Paul?

[Colbinii]

Claiming DeAndre Jordan was a star is completely disingenuous.

[dygaction]

No, he wasn't. Clippers did a nice job marketing him as such in the media, but he was never star material. He was atheltic dunker who blocked a lot of shots and people bought the idea that he was elite defender, but he wasn't. He anchored mediocre defenses surrounded by decent help and his team played the same defensively without him on the floor.

No wonder why he became obsolete once Paul left him. Why do you think he was all-nba level?


Amare never made all-defensive team because he was poor defender. What a bizzare question...

Marion not making all-defensive team is another massive disgrace that should put the whole all-D concept into perspective. Marion was far better defender than Jordan.

Sure, DeAndre's 1st team all-nba and all-D were disgrace because it did not agree with your feeling; on the other hand, claiming him not a star is not a bizzare over reach.

Sometimes you just have to appreciate democracy. MVP, 1st team... coming from voting instead of from one poster.

So you can't make a case for Jordan?

I said why I think he didn't deserve it. It has nothing to do with my feelings, I just haven't seen a single evidence of Jordan being elite defender, let alone elite player. If you show me some evidences, I might change my perception. All I need is something more than voting result.

I am not the only one poster thinking this way. I was active on this board back in 2016, I remember people calling Jordan overrated and I remember very well the whole "Jordan for DPOY" narrative forced by Clippers. As far as I know, you didn't post here back then.

About appreciating democracy, I hope you appreciate greatly Iguodala winning FMVP in 2015 finals or Allen Iverson winning MVP over peak Shaq and Duncan. Voting results usually aren't terrible, but they are not good arguments without any further context. You for sure should appreciate Duncan not winning DPOY a single time for 20 years.

Again, if you have evidences that I'm wrong then make a case for Jordan. Why do you think he was elite defender and why nothing supports that, other than voting results? I want to talk about basketball here, I don't need this board for comparing accolades.

I don't need to make a case for Jordan. He was an elite rebounder as you said, high efficiency lob finisher, strong interior presence, good shot blocker, 1st team all-nba, first team all-defense. They lost the season because Paul got injured. If you want to down talk him, you need to present evidence or argument, not me...

[70sFan]

Sure, DeAndre's 1st team all-nba and all-D were disgrace because it did not agree with your feeling; on the other hand, claiming him not a star is not a bizzare over reach.

Sometimes you just have to appreciate democracy. MVP, 1st team... coming from voting instead of from one poster.

So you can't make a case for Jordan?

I said why I think he didn't deserve it. It has nothing to do with my feelings, I just haven't seen a single evidence of Jordan being elite defender, let alone elite player. If you show me some evidences, I might change my perception. All I need is something more than voting result.

I am not the only one poster thinking this way. I was active on this board back in 2016, I remember people calling Jordan overrated and I remember very well the whole "Jordan for DPOY" narrative forced by Clippers. As far as I know, you didn't post here back then.

About appreciating democracy, I hope you appreciate greatly Iguodala winning FMVP in 2015 finals or Allen Iverson winning MVP over peak Shaq and Duncan. Voting results usually aren't terrible, but they are not good arguments without any further context. You for sure should appreciate Duncan not winning DPOY a single time for 20 years.

Again, if you have evidences that I'm wrong then make a case for Jordan. Why do you think he was elite defender and why nothing supports that, other than voting results? I want to talk about basketball here, I don't need this board for comparing accolades.

I don't need to make a case for Jordan. He was an elite rebounder as you said, high efficiency lob finisher, strong interior presence, good shot blocker, 1st team all-nba, first team all-defense. They lost the season because Paul got injured. If you want to down talk him, you need to present evidence or argument, not me...

I presented arguments, why do you think I didn't? You didn't comment any of my points. Other posters also shared some arguments.

[dygaction]

So you can't make a case for Jordan?

I said why I think he didn't deserve it. It has nothing to do with my feelings, I just haven't seen a single evidence of Jordan being elite defender, let alone elite player. If you show me some evidences, I might change my perception. All I need is something more than voting result.

I am not the only one poster thinking this way. I was active on this board back in 2016, I remember people calling Jordan overrated and I remember very well the whole "Jordan for DPOY" narrative forced by Clippers. As far as I know, you didn't post here back then.

About appreciating democracy, I hope you appreciate greatly Iguodala winning FMVP in 2015 finals or Allen Iverson winning MVP over peak Shaq and Duncan. Voting results usually aren't terrible, but they are not good arguments without any further context. You for sure should appreciate Duncan not winning DPOY a single time for 20 years.

Again, if you have evidences that I'm wrong then make a case for Jordan. Why do you think he was elite defender and why nothing supports that, other than voting results? I want to talk about basketball here, I don't need this board for comparing accolades.

I don't need to make a case for Jordan. He was an elite rebounder as you said, high efficiency lob finisher, strong interior presence, good shot blocker, 1st team all-nba, first team all-defense. They lost the season because Paul got injured. If you want to down talk him, you need to present evidence or argument, not me...

I presented arguments, why do you think I didn't? You didn't comment any of my points. Other posters also shared some arguments.

You presented what you think, not data or proof...

[70sFan]

I don't need to make a case for Jordan. He was an elite rebounder as you said, high efficiency lob finisher, strong interior presence, good shot blocker, 1st team all-nba, first team all-defense. They lost the season because Paul got injured. If you want to down talk him, you need to present evidence or argument, not me...

I presented arguments, why do you think I didn't? You didn't comment any of my points. Other posters also shared some arguments.

You presented what you think, not data or proof...

I mean, I presented my thoughts solidly backed up by data. If you can't check them, I can post the numbers here though:

2015 Clippers: -0.1 rDRtg (15th in the league)
2016 Clippers: -2.6 rORtg (5th in the league)

2015 Clippers with Jordan: 105.8 DRtg
2015 Clippers without Jordan: 104.8 DRtg

2015 Clippers with Jordan: 103.5 DRtg
2015 Clippers without Jordan: 104.6 DRtg

DRAPM

2015: 0.4118 (194th in the league)
2016: 1.3742 (51st in the league)

For starters, here are my arguments. We don't see Jordan impacting Clippers defense, we don't see Clippers being elite (despite having quite a few really good defenders around him) and we don't see Jordan having high defensive impact metrics.

Now, can you explain what am I missing?

[falcolombardi]

deandre jordan was a solid big but definetely not a star unless you really stretch the definition to "player who arguably is an above average starter at his position"

as far as third best players on a team go shawn marion is way better imo

[dygaction]

I presented arguments, why do you think I didn't? You didn't comment any of my points. Other posters also shared some arguments.

You presented what you think, not data or proof...

I mean, I presented my thoughts solidly backed up by data. If you can't check them, I can post the numbers here though:

2015 Clippers: -0.1 rDRtg (15th in the league)
2016 Clippers: -2.6 rORtg (5th in the league)

2015 Clippers with Jordan: 105.8 DRtg
2015 Clippers without Jordan: 104.8 DRtg

2015 Clippers with Jordan: 103.5 DRtg
2015 Clippers without Jordan: 104.6 DRtg

DRAPM

2015: 0.4118 (194th in the league)
2016: 1.3742 (51st in the league)

For starters, here are my arguments. We don't see Jordan impacting Clippers defense, we don't see Clippers being elite (despite having quite a few really good defenders around him) and we don't see Jordan having high defensive impact metrics.

Now, can you explain what am I missing?

For one, you missed the data above needed for sensible discussion. For two, Clippers with or without Jordan also connected to the other rotations. Data of Mavs as a team with or without Luka this year also indicated his impact was small, but then most people watching the game would know he is indeed an impactful player.

There are so many analytical datasets and what to select depends on what you want to prove. Per 100, 2015 and 2016 two entire seasons Jordan had 126 ORtg/98DRtg and 122ORtg/98DRtg. KG had 117/99 and 117/98 in 05 and 06. The TWolves were never really a great defensive team either.

Again, he out rebounded and out blocked Duncan in the first round 4-3 win; in the next 7-game playoff series,
DeAndre put up 13.6/13.4r/1.7a/2.0s/2.1b with .625TS% to offset Dwight Howard and Clint Capela
Griffin put up 26.9/12.3/4.9a/0.6/0.6 with .588TS%. That's MVP level output.
Chris Paul put up 21.2/4.2/10.0a/1.6s/0.0b with .619TS%. Also great.
They had their chance had CP3 played more than 5 games, or if your expectation was DeAndre should be the star that could have won without CP3. We have to acknowledge it was CP3 dragged his team down, not Jordan dragged CP3 down.

Curious whether Booker, Ayton, and Bridges would all be downgraded if Suns do not win this year.

[70sFan]

So you can't contest anything I provided, I hoped you will but it is what it is...

[Pelly24]

i think Chris Paul was a better player. His defense was insanely good. he was also a great scorer who could get 21-23 ppg on really good efficiency if he wanted to. CP3 was basically unstoppable one on one, it was insane. Of course, he was obviously one of the best playmakers ever.