Orlando Magic PBO Jeff Weltman on "Open Mike" with Mike Bianchi - 4/12/22

[JF5]

What the hell just happened to this thread?

Sent from my SM-N960F using Tapatalk

certain posters believe they know more than anyone else about basketball

I think I do this a lot to be honest which I do apologize for it, lol.

But I've been watching this game since I was a kid (On the tale end of the Jordan) era and I've studied and played basketball all my life up until now. I've studied the history of the game so I get passionate about certain things.

When I get into discussions like this. I like to see/test other posters knowledge (and my own) about the history of the game. When I see Pepe's post recently its one of those things where he he will blatantly lie or omit facts or overall history. I'm not certain if he's trolling or being serious. But its a fun exercise for me, usually.

[Xatticus]

Fact that somebody has burning desire to defend current product and front office that in 6 years have negative record 5 times shows more about state of mind of fans than anything worth talking about or having healthy discusion about.

6 years , 36% win percentage.

Ryan McDonough 155-255 - Suns, 38% win percentage- fired.

T Wolves fired both Tom Thibodeau & Saunders with near 50% record.

Sam Hinkie had only one goal in his life- lose every game for 76ers ...and yet by percentage he only is 9% worst than Hammond and Weltman

This isn't the same product that they started with.
IF we had kept AG, Vuc and Evan, we'd be in the play in tourney, playing buddyball and such.
Fact was, AG & Evan were not going to re-sign, those are factors, at that point you have to deal with. Just like when D12 & Shaq left.
This team this year had more talent than their record. Lead the league in missed minutes. But there was enough good, even the board didn't go physco this year compared to previous crap years.
These guys have this franchise in almost the perfect position.
- Top 3 pick most likely
- Young good players (I get the health issue) on manageable 2nd contracts.
- contributing players on rookie deals
- Cap Space
- future picks
They can go any direction this summer, and the path better become clear after the draft dust settles.
There is an argument, we hung onto AG, Vuc and Evan 1 year too long, but once the decision was made, they killed it.
They've made 2 bad deals in my eyes, and 1 debatable
1. Trading for Serge
2. Signing Aminu
3ish drafting Bamba
They've won more trades than not.

They didn’t trade for Serge that was hennigan. I believe they traded Serge away if that is what you meant

Hennigan traded Ibaka away as well.

[tiderulz]

What the hell just happened to this thread?

Sent from my SM-N960F using Tapatalk

certain posters believe they know more than anyone else about basketball

I think I do this a lot to be honest which I do apologize for it, lol.

But I've been watching this game since I was a kid (On the tale end of the Jordan) era and I've studied and played basketball all my life up until now. I've studied the history of the game so I get passionate about certain things.

When I get into discussions like this. I like to see/test other posters knowledge (and my own) about the history of the game. When I see Pepe's post recently its one of those things where he he will blatantly lie or omit facts or overall history. I'm not certain if he's trolling or being serious. But its a fun exercise for me, usually.

its okay to be passionate. its when you dismiss other people's opinions because "you know better" that bothers me. none of us on here are basketball professionals (right? no one lurking ), so anyone on here is just giving their opinion. Now some people research their opinions more than other people do, but at the end of the day, we are all amateurs giving our opinion or view

[drsd]

certain posters believe they know more than anyone else about basketball

I think I do this a lot to be honest which I do apologize for it, lol.

But I've been watching this game since I was a kid (On the tale end of the Jordan) era and I've studied and played basketball all my life up until now. I've studied the history of the game so I get passionate about certain things.

When I get into discussions like this. I like to see/test other posters knowledge (and my own) about the history of the game. When I see Pepe's post recently its one of those things where he he will blatantly lie or omit facts or overall history. I'm not certain if he's trolling or being serious. But its a fun exercise for me, usually.

its okay to be passionate. its when you dismiss other people's opinions because "you know better" that bothers me. none of us on here are basketball professionals (right? no one lurking ), so anyone on here is just giving their opinion. Now some people research their opinions more than other people do, but at the end of the day, we are all amateurs giving our opinion or view

You're wrong!






..

[pepe1991]

What the hell just happened to this thread?

Sent from my SM-N960F using Tapatalk

certain posters believe they know more than anyone else about basketball

I think I do this a lot to be honest which I do apologize for it, lol.

But I've been watching this game since I was a kid (On the tale end of the Jordan) era and I've studied and played basketball all my life up until now. I've studied the history of the game so I get passionate about certain things.

When I get into discussions like this. I like to see/test other posters knowledge (and my own) about the history of the game. When I see Pepe's post recently its one of those things where he he will blatantly lie or omit facts or overall history. I'm not certain if he's trolling or being serious. But its a fun exercise for me, usually.

about the history of the game. When I see Pepe's post recently its one of those things where he he will blatantly lie or omit facts or overall history.

What execlly i lied? I hurted your feelings. It's not my faul that you live in bubble where Fultz is every year- for 3 years- summer away from allstar game. This is same pinky bubble where in past Gordon was every year breaking out- next year, where Elfrid Payton was compared to Jason Kidd and Mario Hezonja was better than Booker - just needed bigger usage.

Where i was one who was stuck for Hezonja, and got burned, even mini homer in me gave up after 2 awful years.

I have zero desire to argue feelings and very low tolerance for blind homerism. Fact that guys like Gordon were with Magic for half of a decade and people were still busting their nuts on Kawhi comparisons tells me everything I need to know about degree of reality fanbase can have.


Since i've been on this forum for very long time now, i'm old enough to remember how Oladipo- for Ibaka was met with thousand cheers and Biyombo addition was celebrated with brand new- "CONGO TOWER" thread that had life on it's own. And i was once again "Grinch" for calling trade- braindead moronic.

I could very easly be "Popular poster" if i put 1% energy into it. There is common sense that this forum follows and that happends to be 98% of time wrong and over time people drift away and never own bull***t they were claiming in past.
So in past i had about 6000 Bamba fights, but nobody nowdays is willing to admit that they were fighting losing battle. In same time every time i go into some debate, somebody brings me Trae Young. But hey, that's life.


However, i challenge you to post what execlly i lied. And i will challenge your "Fultz next year ..." anything beacuse you post same thing for 3 years and you keep being wrong- every year.

To bring this talk back to topic. My argument about this front office is:
a) they were awarded with ability to fix their all crap after wasting 3 years
b) their trackrecord is just awful
c) their win percentage is below majority of front offices that get fire over 5 years
d) Hammon and Hennigan over smilar amount of seasons had win percentage that was only 6% different.
e) Even if Magic go 82-0 next season, Magic will still have negative record with Weltman & Hammond
f) Isaac contract

Once you are second worst team in nba, it's not like you can go anywhere but up. SO... rock bottom is here.

[JF5]

So much feelings. Real GM should be renamed into Feeling GM.


John Hammond & Weltman took team 6 years ago and their treckrecord goes with Magic by:
29-53
25-57
42-40
33-40
21-51
22-60

So Magic, for third year in a row are declining in win percentage. Peaking by 42-40 season and first round.


Dallas under Don Nelson never stopped improving, year after year. From day one.

Don Nelson took Dallas in summer of 1997. In next 3 years they went from 20-62 to 40-42 and by year four, until he sepped down, they were +50 games team.
So in 3 years he did more than this clows will do in at least 7 ( because nobody funcional brain thinks Magic can win 50% of games any time soon ).
His 4th year as Gm will probably be something clows will never achive ( we know for fact previous Bucks Clown didn't have single +50 season in 14 years as GM).

This is sort of fair, but also out of context. WeHam's original run/hiring was based off of retooling and making the playoffs as soon as possible because the Magic had not been in the playoffs in half a decade. I've mentioned this before that the Executives were pushing for this team to make the Playoffs as they spent 5-6 plus years pretty much going through the draft so it was time to go to the next phase of actually trying to make the playoffs.

WeHam didn't have a chance to build a roster that was of their own vision in the first 4 years. They had to add pieces to the pre-existing roster and build through that means. In the first 4 seasons before tearing it down in 2021. The Magic had made the playoffs 2 out of the four years of their tenure. The most success that this team had seen since 2012.

Since they actually hit the targeted goals the previous regime didn't. Yes, Vucevic/Gordon/Fournier all demanded a trade which started the rebuild last year. But 2021 was year one of the FO rebuilding the team in more of their vision. They earned fro their previous resume with the team in previous seasons.

FInley and Nash turned into allstars. Wendell Carter and Fultz did not. Simple, isn't it? For a record, Finley was officially allstar by year 3 with Dallas. Fultz finished his 3rd year with Magic ( calendar year) and people still talk about "potential" and "what could have been". You first.

1. Do you read or do you just see red when you answer post? I said Finley was the only proven commodity on that team in 1998 when Finley/Nowitzki/Nash came together.

2. Again, you purposely left this out about Nash's eventual ascent. Nash didn't become an allstar quality player until the 2000-2001 season and didn't make it to an all-star game until the 2001-2002 season. That's about a full 3-4 years of development which landed him onto the all-star team.

- Also, on top of that his first year in Dallas in 1998-1999 he was an 7.9 point Scorer. Shooting an amazing 36.4 percent from the field while shooting a pretty good 37.4 percent from the 3-Point line. But his overall eFG% was a horrid 44.1 Percent.

So just to put this in context at the end of the 98-99 season. Dallas hitched their wagons to 2 out of 3 core players who were absolutely atrocious for them in that season

Steve Nash: 7.9 PPG on 36.4 from the field and 37.4 from the 3-Point line.
Dirk Nowitzki: 8.2 PPG on 40.5 from the field and 20.6 from the 3-Point line.

Seriously, your example of Dallas shows more why you should have more patience and focus more on player development long term because players can eventually better, So thanks for helping out my argument there.

Because if that was the Magic situation an players were shooting/playing like that you yourself would've given up on them already.

He was traded to a team that was willing to get him. No trade clause means that he had no final word about trade.
Difference being that Pelicans actually want to build something for today, where most tanking teams chase tail while dreaming about drafting McCullum, instad of trading for McCullum.

They had a Core Ready and decided to trade for a Star. This has changed as well in the modern NBA. Teams won't trade for a Star unless they also have All-Star caliber players in Place.

You know why teams do this? If you trade for a star player. Teams will ask for a crap ton of assets from you. And if you're not a team with already proven stars you more likely than not handicap yourself to as to what you can do in the future.

The Star is good enough to make that team mediocre and a borderline playoff team (Meaning you more than likely will miss out potential Star quality players in the lottery if you even have draft picks). But also they don't have enough talent on that team to compete because you traded a **** ton of assets to get him. NOW, those assets involve potential future draft picks which now you're unable to improve the team through that means either. On top of that your star player take about 1/3 of the salary cap and the rest rest of the cap is relegated the mediocre to decent players on your.

At this point you're just stuck. So in today's outright trading for a star if you're a bad team makes absolutely makes no sense. Especially if you don't have a core to build around and lack the assets.

Sabonis could have been kept by Magic.
Levert could have been drafted on same year as Sabonis.
Player being traded for another doesn't change fact both were traded.

What does this have to do with anything? Again, you're all over the place.

Porzingis is former allstar.

He was an all-star like 5-6 years ago. His contributions have declined due to his injuries and evolving nature of how the game is played in 2022. To me he's a really good player (at least for now).

If you try to bait me into personal feelings and take it personal, it won't work. So all this emojies trying to "mock" me make me think you are 15-18 years old. Don Nelson built team by drafting down and trading star for two players he viewed as potential stars. Both turned into stars. In process he TRADE FIRST OVERALL PICK FOR NEXT DRAFT AWAY TO GET THEM.
How da f*** is that buliding through draft? Because he drafted ONE player in lottery ?

Take it personally? I'm laughing at you because you said drafting and trading for young and unproven players doesn't work. But Dallas built around 2 young guys (Nowitzki and Nash) who looked absolutely terrible after the 1998-1999 season.

Again, you called Suggs someone not to build a team around but look at those guys at the time. You inadvertently made my point about having patience with young players.

I know you probably saw their stats while researching. But chose to ignore it to push whatever narrative you tried to push.

It's hilarious that you are so desparate to mock me, by in same time you are making yourself look like clown.
Spurs won 59 games in season before Robinson got hurt. Fifty nine games

Warriors never tanked for their core. They won 48 games in 2008 ( missed playoffs, because West in 2000s was that good), during 2008-09 Monta Elise torn deltoid ligament and a syndesmosis disruption of his left ankle that required surgery and only played 25 games whole year. That's how they dropped from 48 to 29 wins and drafted Curry.
Their next season was garbage, they won 25 games (with Curry) and ...with 6th overall pick drafted future superstar....

Spoiler:

Ekpe Udoh

Next year they won 36 games ( 36-46 record) and draft Klay. Or your claiming that their goal for a season was to miss playoffs by 10 games, finish season on 6-4 , not tank a single game, on purpose fall out of 10 so they can draft Klay Thompson?

I'm going to leave this here

This is plan that never works and everybody knows it. It worked for OKC and only them. But even they , and when i say "they" I mean Presty got delusional to the point where he thought he can pull d**k from his pocket and call it superstar so he lost Harden because he actually thought he can draft another Harden next year ( i guess Thabeet fiasco wasn't enough of a lession ) .

All those teams I mentioned were Dynasties who drafted most if not all of their core players.

I said i won't talk about Suggs because i'm tired of same old "just a rookie" excuse.
Previous golden goose was Payton, later Gordon. Funny how nobody wants to remenice those old good 2013-2015 where half of forum wanted to build team around them.

Like I said you don't like the player and that's fine. But history shows and even literally by your own Post of the 1998 Dallas Mavericks that Young Players who looked like absolute crap can turn it around. So are fans really wrong to be excited about what we've seen from these youngsters like Suggs?

People here are genuinely excited for the first time since probably the Oladipo/Vucevic/Harris days. I don't think its a crime for them to be positive about this team's direction.

Yea and before draft Wiggins was Kobe meets Lebron. And Jah Okafor was next Duncan.
Irrelevant to present, since draft night 5 years passed by and Fultz never lived up to a hype. if he did, Magic would never got him anyway.
"If he gains" ? When? He spent 3 years with Magic. In that period he is 48-168 three point shooter. At one point you stop being delusional and land on planet Earth and figure that 28% is his "normal" shooting for his whole career and come with grips of reality that "Washington Fultz" exists in same world as " Duke Okafor" or "healthy isaac" .
For some fans, answer is never. Okey. Fine by me.

Orlando Magic will never be relevant franchise until they find young, capable, modern thinking basketball minds with balls to make big impact and big risk moves. Until that day happend, Orlando will be basemant of nba with worst tv ratings and stars like Lebron will describe "Bubble in Orlando " as "nightmare ". In mean time lot of goofballs like Hampton & Cole will be playing nutball with pilates ball and celebrate first win in 15 games like they won championship. And ofc Weltman and Hammond will keep sinking this ship and have press conferences where they waste 25 min on praising own moves. Where in reality there is only one realistic, 100% objective and truthfull way how to measure sucess WIN vs LOSS. 172 wins vs 301 loss. 36% win percentage. For a record, that's identical to Hennigan's record.

This is what I don't understand. If you're this negative all the time about a team what's even the point of following them until they're successful? You're clearly a fan who is a front-runner and doesn't do well when a team is young and developing unless there is a clear centerpiece or centerpieces.

I couldn't imagine being that type of fan who was miserable all the time. I believe if this team became good again you'd probably find a way to be critical about them regardless. But I guess that's how you root for your teams.

[pepe1991]

You realize that team is "this bad" since 2012, right? SO even if i decided to " skip pass growing pain " i would be skipping decade?

I don't mind sucking as long as there is some idea behind it and plan that includes backup plan to get to desired destination.
But right now Magic only plan under WeHam is suck for pick and pretend they are bust rehab centar. The way things are going, they will probably add Kevin Knox next ( or Cam Reddish )

I'm nba fan. So when games are unwatchable ( everything post allstar game last year, majority of this season) there are plenty of games to watch. This is most exiting playoffs in very long time. I will have very good time watching it. But i'm Orlando fan, but also i'm not blind to not figure out how far Magic are from even average playoff teams let alone contenders. And that's same story for a decade now.

I think general issue with "homerism" of forum comes from fact that majority of fans don't watch anything but Magic, so they live in bubble that inner growth is enough to break ceiling. And when that is case with most teams, for majority of them that ceiling can't be broken by inner growth but by outside a box thinking ( adding talent, free agency, big trade...) .

My main issue with Weltman and Hammond is literally that. I don't think they know how to break glass ceiling. Hammond had copy past same issue with Bucks, aside from dysfuncional basketball rosters ( his common issue, almost no teams he put on floor made basketball sense) he never tried to find some massive solution to that problem, rather kept going into linear direction, despite there was no more linear growth but linear stagnation.

Raptors with Weltman had same issue. They broke on Lebron. And until Weltman left they kept doing same thing year after year with diminishing returns . Zero desire to break Derozan-Lowry bromance. Year after his departure, Derozan was traded for Leonard and Raptors broke ceiling. Coincidence? Maybe, but still telling.




Whole "rebuild via draft " to me is complete waste of time because people, like you now, lose in semantics , by not being able to grasp raelity of basketball.
For any potential NBA player, only way how to get into nba is via draft. In whole nba, only 10% of soemthing like that are undrafted players. So it comes without saying that most teams have bunch of players they drafted.
For instance you point out how Warriors or Dallas who i brought are "dynasty via draft" . And to me this is just complete and utter lie.
Warriors didn't nosedived into lottery in desparate search for picks like Detroit, Magic or Houston is doing now. They had massive injury of best player and drafted Steph Curry - 7th overall.
Next year they were even worst, drafted 6th - Ekpe Udoh.
Year after they are 36-46 team ( nowdays that's playin team) and after failing to make playoffs- they draft Klay Thompson at the tail end of lottery.
So yes, Steph and Klay are "drafted in lottery", but that's semantics. Warriors never intentionally sucked to get them.

Dallas Mavericks under Don Nelson only had 1 bad year where they sucked for Dirk. During second year they traded future unprotected pick for Nash and Finley and refused to continue to tanking.


Those teams have nothing in common with current tankers who are two yeras in a row depleating rosters , especially at the tail end of a season and tank on purpose by putting as much crap as it's possible on the floor.


If your overaching point about "build via draft " is that group of players drafted between 10- 60 make roster " dynasty built through draft" than i really don't know what to tell you. In that case Heat is dynasty built via draft, half of players are undrafted, so i guess they are also building via draft, after draft ends, in overtime?


Look, i don't want to turn this into fist fight, i think we can have serious conversation and not get into feelings. I respect different opinion as long as mine is being treated as such.

[tiderulz]

2. Again, you purposely left this out about Nash's eventual ascent. Nash didn't become an allstar quality player until the 2000-2001 season and didn't make it to an all-star game until the 2001-2002 season. That's about a full 3-4 years of development which landed him onto the all-star team.

- Also, on top of that his first year in Dallas in 1998-1999 he was an 7.9 point Scorer. Shooting an amazing 36.4 percent from the field while shooting a pretty good 37.4 percent from the 3-Point line. But his overall eFG% was a horrid 44.1 Percent.

So just to put this in context at the end of the 98-99 season. Dallas hitched their wagons to 2 out of 3 core players who were absolutely atrocious for them in that season

Steve Nash: 7.9 PPG on 36.4 from the field and 37.4 from the 3-Point line.
Dirk Nowitzki: 8.2 PPG on 40.5 from the field and 20.6 from the 3-Point line.

and Nash was 25 after that 2nd year. 25, an age some posters believe a player is what they are and wont get better, wont increase skills, etc.

[JF5]

You realize that team is "this bad" since 2012, right? SO even if i decided to " skip pass growing pain " i would be skipping decade?

I don't mind sucking as long as there is some idea behind it and plan that includes backup plan to get to desired destination.
But right now Magic only plan under WeHam is suck for pick and pretend they are bust rehab centar. The way things are going, they will probably add Kevin Knox next ( or Cam Reddish )

When you generalize rather than look at detail and context I think its easy to overlook what exactly is going on in any situation. Clearly the 19-20 Vucevic/Gordon/Fournier led team that made the playoffs is not the current Wagner/Carter/Suggs/Fultz/Issac/2022 Draft Pick core that will be trying to make a name for themselves for next year.

Like I mentioned before and its clear from your post you're not giving this roster and iteration of the Magic chance before they even start actually playing together next year, which is bizarre but that's the lens you're looking at things.

I'm nba fan. So when games are unwatchable ( everything post allstar game last year, majority of this season) there are plenty of games to watch. This is most exiting playoffs in very long time. I will have very good time watching it. But i'm Orlando fan, but also i'm not blind to not figure out how far Magic are from even average playoff teams let alone contenders. And that's same story for a decade now.

I think general issue with "homerism" of forum comes from fact that majority of fans don't watch anything but Magic, so they live in bubble that inner growth is enough to break ceiling. And when that is case with most teams, for majority of them that ceiling can't be broken by inner growth but by outside a box thinking ( adding talent, free agency, big trade...) .

Again, you're not even giving them a chance what-so-ever. They clearly were tanking/developing player the previous years. Next year we'll see growth and some synergy of a young team and we'll see who will take their games to the next level. That's the beauty of tomorrow, you don't know what the hell will happen.

I'm a student of NBA history and for most teams who became good or great it didn't happen overnight. Whatever happens, happens. But I've studied the game enough for myself at least to see this team has some really good pieces/others see that too. The Magic also have a lot of draft capital in the upcoming years as well which makes things very interesting if some of these guys develop into high level players.

You made a comment saying Nikola Jokic was going to resign and that 2025 pick wouldn't convey to a high Draft Pick. Comments like that make no sense because how the hell could you predict what happens in 3 years with a player's situation.


Jokic could be tired of carrying the team and wants to be paired with a definitive star on a different team. He could go down with injury. Hell, we can even be even morbid and say he can die within that time. You speaking in absolutes about what will happen next is strange unless if you can see into the future.

My main issue with Weltman and Hammond is literally that. I don't think they know how to break glass ceiling. Hammond had copy past same issue with Bucks, aside from dysfuncional basketball rosters ( his common issue, almost no teams he put on floor made basketball sense) he never tried to find some massive solution to that problem, rather kept going into linear direction, despite there was no more linear growth but linear stagnation.

Raptors with Weltman had same issue. They broke on Lebron. And until Weltman left they kept doing same thing year after year with diminishing returns . Zero desire to break Derozan-Lowry bromance. Year after his departure, Derozan was traded for Leonard and Raptors broke ceiling. Coincidence? Maybe, but still telling.

I look at this like this. Like I mentioned before his drafted Giannis and traded for Middleton leaving a genesis of an eventual title team. He goes to Toronto, he leaves, they become a playoff team and an eventual title team as well. Pretty much wherever he's gone the last decade plus he's left the team in a position where they have Great Pieces that would eventually win a title.

His job is to develop the guys (Which he's had a track record of doing) and have this team being competitive. If he can do that here like he did in those previous places of employment. Then he did his job.

Whole "rebuild via draft " to me is complete waste of time because people, like you now, lose in semantics , by not being able to grasp raelity of basketball.
For any potential NBA player, only way how to get into nba is via draft. In whole nba, only 10% of soemthing like that are undrafted players. So it comes without saying that most teams have bunch of players they drafted.

Then what's the point of you arguing with me about this point then? More often then not in the NBA teams usually draft their great players to win championships. This isn't some crazy theory. You just have to draft well or just get lucky and draft well. That's my point. That's why player development is so important. That's why they got WeHam whose had a good track record of player development of key players over the years.

Yes, he didn't get it right all the time. But he did just enough to where like I mentioned he left his former teams in better positions.

instance you point out how Warriors or Dallas who i brought are "dynasty via draft" . And to me this is just complete and utter lie.
Warriors didn't nosedived into lottery in desparate search for picks like Detroit, Magic or Houston is doing now. They had massive injury of best player and drafted Steph Curry - 7th overall.
Next year they were even worst, drafted 6th - Ekpe Udoh.
Year after they are 36-46 team ( nowdays that's playin team) and after failing to make playoffs- they draft Klay Thompson at the tail end of lottery.

So yes, Steph and Klay are "drafted in lottery", but that's semantics. Warriors never intentionally sucked to get them.

The Warriors were a bottom dwelling team for 4 consecutive seasons.

2008-2009 : 29-53
2009-2010 : 26-56
2010-2011 : 36-46
2011-2012 : 23-43
2012-2013 : 47-35 (Playoffs)

This got so bad with them that Joe Lacob was infamously Booed during a ceremony for Chris Mullins off the heels when they just traded Monta Ellis for Andrew Bogut. This was during the height of when Steph had consistent ankle issues as well. They were a laughing stock until the 2012-2013 season when they went 47-35.

Dallas Mavericks under Don Nelson only had 1 bad year where they sucked for Dirk. During second year they traded future unprotected pick for Nash and Finley and refused to continue to tanking.

Those teams have nothing in common with current tankers who are two yeras in a row depleating rosters , especially at the tail end of a season and tank on purpose by putting as much crap as it's possible on the floor.

Why do you keep running with this narrative? Be more accurate with details like this.

1. Nash and Nowitzki joined the team in 1998. There was a huge press conference of them together when they joined the team to prove this. And also, by showing you their stats in that 1998-1999 season they were not that good. They were both statistically terrible.

2. Michael Finley had joined the team 2 Years prior in the 1996-1997 season.

3. The Mavericks ended the season being 19-31 (Missing the Playoffs) and the following season though they ended up with substantially better record in 40-42 (Players did improved as well) they missed the playoffs. It took them 2 years in the 2000-2001 season for them to even make the playoffs.

4. Don Nelson was a Team Executive of the Mavericks from he 1996-1997 season. Though you can assert he didn't have complete control of the personnel/team until 1998. He oversaw seasons where the team was borderline atrocious to mediocre. How long was it before they saw success under his vision? about 4-5 years.

1996-1997: 24-58
1997-1998: 20-62
1998-1999: 19-31
1999-2000: 40-42
2000-2001: 53-29 (Playoffs)

If your overaching point about "build via draft " is that group of players drafted between 10- 60 make roster " dynasty built through draft" than i really don't know what to tell you. In that case Heat is dynasty built via draft, half of players are undrafted, so i guess they are also building via draft, after draft ends, in overtime?

I agree with this that the Heat are one of those teams where they in their entire existence built primarily through Free-agency. This is fairly accurate since the Alonzo Morning/Tim Hardaway days, Shaquille O'Neal being added the mid 00s, to the LeBron James/Chris Bosh acquisitions, to now with Jimmy Butler/Kyle Lowry in recent years.

Look, i don't want to turn this into fist fight, i think we can have serious conversation and not get into feelings. I respect different opinion as long as mine is being treated as such.

[/quote]

I'm not that personally bothered about your post. I just get annoyed with how your takes are and how you can completely milk your opinion with absolutes and viewpoints which clearly lack context. The post are nearly all negative and its like regardless of anything this team does you don't like what they're doing and you won't give them a chance.

You've been posting here for some years and I've consistently seen post like this. Its like not everything this team team does is bad just like how not everything this team does is great. There should be a middleground.

It does make sense though given how long this team hasn't been really good. I myself try to stay in the middle as much as possible. For me at least and from a consensus as to the job they've done recently most people are satisfied with it. They picked a direction to go young and build from there. We'll just see how this goes in the upcoming seasons.

[JF5]

certain posters believe they know more than anyone else about basketball

I think I do this a lot to be honest which I do apologize for it, lol.

But I've been watching this game since I was a kid (On the tale end of the Jordan) era and I've studied and played basketball all my life up until now. I've studied the history of the game so I get passionate about certain things.

When I get into discussions like this. I like to see/test other posters knowledge (and my own) about the history of the game. When I see Pepe's post recently its one of those things where he he will blatantly lie or omit facts or overall history. I'm not certain if he's trolling or being serious. But its a fun exercise for me, usually.

its okay to be passionate. its when you dismiss other people's opinions because "you know better" that bothers me. none of us on here are basketball professionals (right? no one lurking ), so anyone on here is just giving their opinion. Now some people research their opinions more than other people do, but at the end of the day, we are all amateurs giving our opinion or view

I'll try to refrain from doing that going forward. Its not a good look for me

[VFX]

I’m not a fan of this FO’s management of assets. They haven’t done a good job. They have also been mediocre in the draft and not aggressive with trades at all.

Mosley was a decent hire.

[pepe1991]

Like I mentioned before and its clear from your post you're not giving this roster and iteration of the Magic chance before they even start actually playing together next year, which is bizarre but that's the lens you're looking at things.

Magic have ongoing rebuild for 11 years. Magic are doing re-re-rebuild for third time in 10 years with new peaces, but with same people who are responsible why second rebuild failed ( Gordon-Hezonja-Payton -Harris- Vuc would be rebuild attemp one, under Hennigan, as all guys were his, either traded or drafted), Isaac- Bamba-resigned Evan- resigned Vuc- resigned Gordon, traded for Fultzwould be rebuild number two- because that is roster they elected to draft OR hold - under Hammond and Weltman ( and ultimatley failed to do anything but lose in first rounds , in 5 games.

So why would i trust rebuild to same people that in 6 years never showed they can draft star, trade star or put winning product?

Again, you're not even giving them a chance what-so-ever. They clearly were tanking/developing player the previous years. Next year we'll see growth and some synergy of a young team and we'll see who will take their games to the next level. That's the beauty of tomorrow, you don't know what the hell will happen.

I'm a student of NBA history and for most teams who became good or great it didn't happen overnight. Whatever happens, happens. But I've studied the game enough for myself at least to see this team has some really good pieces/others see that too. The Magic also have a lot of draft capital in the upcoming years as well which makes things very interesting if some of these guys develop into high level players.

Students of NBA game know that when front officies change, if change is needed, than there is no reason to sit on hands and do nothing for one whole year and call it "evluation" just to slap contract exstensions on virtually everybody. Magic spent 4 years under Hammond and Weltman- by just playing and paying Hennigan players. So what was point of firing him in first place ?

"Boosting value" is bull**** argument. Gordon had more value in 2017 than 2021 when he demanded trade. Evan Fournier's value peaked in 2018, not 2021. Even Vuc's value peaked year earlier than he was traded. Ross has been declining player for last 3 years, instad of moving him when he had value, they leaked in public that they want first round pick for him ( and probably caused lot of laugh among other Gms for doing so ). Ofc still couldn't trade him.
But they didn't want to rebuild. Gordon's trade demand, injuries, Evan Fournier interviews with big media outlets forced their hand.

You made a comment saying Nikola Jokic was going to resign and that 2025 pick wouldn't convey to a high Draft Pick. Comments like that make no sense because how the hell could you predict what happens in 3 years with a player's situation.

How can you predict this rebuild is any different than previous Magic fails? But yet, above, you still do. Matter of fact you are angry and argume me so hard for me projecting continue of failures, yet now you project potential failure of Nuggets because it fits best case scenario for your favorite team?
For sake of argument, Nuggets picks has top 5 protection for 2025,2026 and 2027, if it's not turned into something, it becomes second round pick.
Also, context. Jokic ( pending supermax exstension that he wil sign next month, worth $241M ), Murray, Porter and Gordon all have contracts that last through 2024-25 season so yea... that won't be top 10 pick comming ( nor it can be top 5 for reasons mentioned, by me, above ).

I look at this like this. Like I mentioned before his drafted Giannis and traded for Middleton leaving a genesis of an eventual title team. He goes to Toronto, he leaves, they become a playoff team and an eventual title team as well. Pretty much wherever he's gone the last decade plus he's left the team in a position where they have Great Pieces that would eventually win a title.

For start, Hammond and Weltman are two different persons.
Hammond was Gm who never passed first round of playoffs for Bucks in 10 seasons. As GM he finished season with negative record 10 out of 15 times .
Weltman is different person ( oh god i really need to write this? ).
He was Hammond's assistent GM during fiasco Bucks years ( way before Giannis, during Joe Alexander , Monta Ellise and Brandon Jennings era)
Weltman spent moved from Bucks right before 2013 draft, and signed with Raptors, as Ujiri's assistent. He was only Raptors GM one season, when Ujiri got new contract and was promoted from GM to team president.
Weltman left very next year. He was replaced by Bobby Webster.
Boby Webster made this changes: hired Nick Nurse, traded for Leonard, traded for Marc Gasol, exstended Vleet on 4 years contract.
if you have The Athletic subscribtion read more about Bobby Webster. How 35 years old GM wins championship with Raptors by dealing right cards.

The Warriors were a bottom dwelling team for 4 consecutive seasons.

2008-2009 : 29-53
2009-2010 : 26-56
2010-2011 : 36-46
2011-2012 : 23-43
2012-2013 : 47-35 (Playoffs)

For start , we here argue semantics. To me "building via draft " means sucking for pick. Since draft is only way how nba teams can get into nba.

Intentionally leaving 2007-08 ( 48-34) & 2006-07 ( 42-40) To make it better ?
Steph Curry was drafted in 2009.
Warriors fell so hard mostly because Monta Elise was out for majority of season ( 25 games played, bad knee injury).
Next year had even more injury issues ( 26-56 season ) ,as Randloph torn something in his leg ( 33 games played), Azubuike blew up knee ( 9 games played total), Toliver only played 44 games.
It got so bad in terms of injury, that they become first nba team in history that had six aveliable players in single game ( and somehow won )
More evidence of no desire to tank, comes from fact that they finished season with 7-5 record.

Further evidence that Warriors had zero desire to tank comes from Sign& Trade for David Lee, as they sent whole "farm" for player they signed on near max contract. When he was 27 years old . ( on 6 years contract, non less).
Nba.com wrote about that season

At 36-46, the Warriors were one of only seven teams to improve upon their 2009-10 win total by 10 or more games.

.
Important note. team was sold in 2010 to new ownership. Same ownership that owns them today.
Seaon ended by them drafting Klay Thompson.

This got so bad with them that Joe Lacob was infamously Booed during a ceremony for Chris Mullins off the heels when they just traded Monta Ellis for Andrew Bogut. This was during the height of when Steph had consistent ankle issues as well. They were a laughing stock until the 2012-2013 season when they went 47-35.

You are manipulating things by making things out. Mullin was removed from Golden State in Novemeber of 2009.
So. lie.

4. Don Nelson was a Team Executive of the Mavericks from he 1996-1997 season. Though you can assert he didn't have complete control of the personnel/team until 1998. He oversaw seasons where the team was borderline atrocious to mediocre. How long was it before they saw success under his vision? about 4-5 years.

Lie number 2.

And than you had audicity to say i was lying

Weltman and Hammond are masters of mediocrity, Hammond isn't even that. He is master of sucking. He spent 15 years as basketball Gm with 10 out of 15 years with negative record. He is yet to pass first round of playoffs in his life, being GM from age of 50 to almost 65 now.

Weltman was only in charge of anything ( on paper) once, as GM for Raptors, for one season. And everybody knew Ujiri was strings puller, not Weltman, as he was replaced by guy who led them to championship later,by making championship moves.

They are running Orlando Magic organisation for 6 years and in that period they drafted 4 lottery picks ( Suggs, Wagner, Isaac, Bamba). Think what you want about them, it's up to you. one never plays, one is viewed as bench player, other had historiclly awful rookie year, one is very good.
They drafted in middle of first round twice- Okeke & Cole. Both look like projected deep bench guys on serious teams.
They made couple of trades. Including Fultz that in 3 years turned into $40M investment that didn't even reach level of playing 21st pick - turned into- Maxey ends up being, while costing $5M total so far.

There is no star in sight and despite "sucessfully " sucking and tanking, there is no star in draft where you can put all eggs in that bucket.
Next season Magic will again be team with negative record, and they will already be in charge for 7 seasons at that point .At what point sucking stops being new normal ,expectable and acceptable? Because right now it is with them.
This does not even take in account that we talk about two guys in their 60s being on verge of retireing in near future. So there is no "future " with them anyway. Should i remind you that Bucks replaced 60years old Hammond with by 33 years old Jon Horst and Wetlman, who was 55 or 56 i think, was replaced by 34 years Webster ? And both teams won championship by handing teams to younger people? Suprise suprise.

Btw i LOVE how you never wanted to adress how execlly Llyod survived Hennigan being fired and still is lead guy in Magic draft process. Despite drafting draft busts such are Hezonja, Payton, Bamba. Or underachivers ( basically any other player Magic drafted in 11 years , minus Wagner has been underachiver while with Magic ).

[JF5]

Magic have ongoing rebuild for 11 years. Magic are doing re-re-rebuild for third time in 10 years with new peaces, but with same people who are responsible why second rebuild failed ( Gordon-Hezonja-Payton -Harris- Vuc would be rebuild attemp one, under Hennigan, as all guys were his, either traded or drafted), Isaac- Bamba-resigned Evan- resigned Vuc- resigned Gordon, traded for Fultzwould be rebuild number two- because that is roster they elected to draft OR hold - under Hammond and Weltman ( and ultimatley failed to do anything but lose in first rounds , in 5 games.

So why would i trust rebuild to same people that in 6 years never showed they can draft star, trade star or put winning product?

What you're saying here makes absolutely no sense

What you're saying is the current FO went to the playoff with Hennigan's guys. That statement is true...

Then in the same paragraph you attach them as Weltman/Hammond guys because they resigned them and now attaching them to a 2nd rebuild that never really occurred.

As a matter of fact it was more of a "retooling" situation as the duo was building around the previous regimes players.

They added Fultz/Issac/Bamba. But the core at that time they built around were guys from previous regime. You can't say that was a rebuild if they specifically built around the same core they had from the Hennigan era.

This is truly Orlando's 2nd rebuild they're actually building around players they traded for and drafted in the last 1-4 years. On top of that the clear tanking attempts that have occured the last two seasons after moving on from Vucevic/Gordon/Fournier in late 2021.

Students of NBA game know that when front officies change, if change is needed, than there is no reason to sit on hands and do nothing for one whole year and call it "evluation" just to slap contract exstensions on virtually everybody. Magic spent 4 years under Hammond and Weltman- by just playing and paying Hennigan players. So what was point of firing him in first place ?

I said this earlier and this seems circular at this point. There is this widespread belief that the Executives/Ownership/Alex Martins wanted them to get to the playoffs because they hadn't been there since 2012 and they had been rebuilding for nearly more than half a decade.

And if you have been building for half a decade and you've been drafting at the top of the lottery for 5-6 + years during the previous administration you should have enough talent to make the playoffs at some point. That logically makes sense. The Organization decided to go with a Front Office with experience as John Hammond had with the Bucks (As he had 4 Playoff Appearances out of the 9 years he was with the Bucks) and Jeff Weltman with the Raptors (Who had gone to the Playoffs 4 Straight years in a row while in his role with the Raptors).

Like I keep mentioning and for some reason don't think is a big deal and continuously minimize, they made the playoffs 2 out of the 4 years before the complete tear down of the team last year in 2021. So combining their history of making the playoffs and developing talent and actually achieving something that Hennigan and the organization had failed to do in almost a decade they were given an extension.

"Boosting value" is bull**** argument. Gordon had more value in 2017 than 2021 when he demanded trade. Evan Falue peaked in 2018, not 2021. Even Vuc's value peaked year earlier than he was traded. Ross has been declining player for last 3 years, instad of moving him when he had value, they leaked in public that they want first round pick for him ( and probably caused lot of laugh among other Gms for doing so ). Ofc still couldn't trade him.
But they didn't want to rebuild. Gordon's trade demand, injuries, Evan Fournier interviews with big media outlets forced their hand.

This one I laugh at...

1. If you told someone at the end of 2017 that we'd get 2 Lottery Players and potentially a future 1st round pick on top of that in Exchange for Nikola Vucevic who the Magic were actively tried/did have Bizmack Biyombo start over during a portion of the 2016-2017 season people would've thought you were joking.

Vucevic under WeHam regime morphed in a All-Star who led this organization to the playoffs in back-to-back seasons. You can't downplay that at all.

2. Gordon this one is bit debatable. I don't think they would've received as much Capital in 2017 when people assumed there would be a rebuild.

Gordon lacked a lot during 2017 and he didn't have any sort of discernible skills outside of his defense. He couldn't score, he couldn't shoo the 3 consistently, he was unable to create on his own, and without a system and being on a subpar team after his 3rd year in 2017 he didn't look like much.

He was our highest valued player. But given again that this team was horrible and Gordon didn't look like much at this stage I think
it was arguable people were looking for a mid-to-late 1st round pick pick for him and maybe a serviable vet who was older/declining/just a throw in.

Technically that's what we got in 2021 but they also received a young player (RJ Hampton). With how the trade looks now with Gary Harris looking like the decent player he once was in Denver (Don't know if he's going to be kept), Hampton still having some value as a potential 3&D Player (Though he's a long way from being an NBA Caliber Player), and that 2025 pick which is a supreme wild card with it being 3 years out. I think in retrospect the Magic got a little more than what they could've gotten out of AG in 2017.

Fournier like I've said multiple times is the only asset that was traded for crap. This one the front office dropped the ball on completely.

For sake of argument, Nuggets picks has top 5 protection for 2025,2026 and 2027, if it's not turned into something, it becomes second round pick.
Also, context. Jokic ( pending supermax exstension that he wil sign next month, worth $241M ), Murray, Porter and Gordon all have contracts that last through 2024-25 season so yea... that won't be top 10 pick comming ( nor it can be top 5 for reasons mentioned, by me, above ).

Arguments sake? I can't in hindsight argue that the Nuggets will be good or bad in 2-3 years. Like I mentioned before there is ALOT that can happen with a team.

1. Porter Jr. has persistent back problems and his NBA future looks questionable at this point as he's only played 1 full season in the 4 years he's played.

2. There were talks of trading Jamal Murray within the next few years because they'll be in salary Cap Hell once they attempt to resign Nikola Jokic.

3. Nikola Jokic can become disgruntled with carrying the franchise and not going far into the playoffs and he decides to leave at the end of the 2022-2023

By the way I find it odd that you can project the Nuggets remaining intact and contending but I or any other Magic fan can't project the Magic can be a good team. That's a bit hypocritical.

For start, Hammond and Weltman are two different persons.

I clearly abbreviate those two as they're joined at the hip. But thanks, lmao

Hammond was Gm who never passed first round of playoffs for Bucks in 10 seasons. As GM he finished season with negative record 10 out of 15 times .

Hammond made the Playoffs 4 out 9 seasons with the Bucks while going through 2 eras of the team when he was GM from 2008-2017. That's relatively solid for a small market organization.

And Again he draft Giannis and traded for MIddleton and was essentially genesis of the current Championship organization.

Weltman is different person ( oh god i really need to write this? ).
He was Hammond's assistent GM during fiasco Bucks years ( way before Giannis, during Joe Alexander , Monta Ellise and Brandon Jennings era)
Weltman spent moved from Bucks right before 2013 draft, and signed with Raptors, as Ujiri's assistent. He was only Raptors GM one season, when Ujiri got new contract and was promoted from GM to team president.
Weltman left very next year. He was replaced by Bobby Webster.
Boby Webster made this changes: hired Nick Nurse, traded for Leonard, traded for Marc Gasol, exstended Vleet on 4 years contract.
if you have The Athletic subscribtion read more about Bobby Webster. How 35 years old GM wins championship with Raptors by dealing right cards.

I don't know how to reply to this. He was still apart of a successful organization that had some playoff success every year he was there. AND?

For start , we here argue semantics. To me "building via draft " means sucking for pick. Since draft is only way how nba teams can get into nba.

But you said this...

This is plan that never works and everybody knows it. It worked for OKC and only them. But even they , and when i say "they" I mean Presty got delusional to the point where he thought he can pull d**k from his pocket and call it superstar so he lost Harden because he actually thought he can draft another Harden next year ( i guess Thabeet fiasco wasn't enough of a lession ) .

You're not going to be held accountable for this previous statement?

Intentionally leaving 2007-08 ( 48-34) & 2006-07 ( 42-40) To make it better ?

I mean if you "intentionally ignore the Magic making the playoffs in back-to-back seasons in 2019 and 2020 to downplay Weham's success; and those Warrior teams transitioning into a completely different team all together with the guys they were winning with previously then yeah..

Steph Curry was drafted in 2009.
Warriors fell so hard mostly because Monta Elise was out for majority of season ( 25 games played, bad knee injury).
Next year had even more injury issues ( 26-56 season ) ,as Randloph torn something in his leg ( 33 games played), Azubuike blew up knee ( 9 games played total), Toliver only played 44 games.
It got so bad in terms of injury, that they become first nba team in history that had six aveliable players in single game ( and somehow won )
More evidence of no desire to tank, comes from fact that they finished season with 7-5 record.

Further evidence that Warriors had zero desire to tank comes from Sign& Trade for David Lee, as they sent whole "farm" for player they signed on near max contract. When he was 27 years old . ( on 6 years contract, non less).
Nba.com wrote about that season

There are few problems I have with this.

1. Injuries happen... You absolutely kill WeHam for drafting an injury prone player in Jonathan Issac. AND you absolutely killed them last year when Fultz went down and the team fell apart at the beginning of the 2020-2021 season when they went through a crap ton of injury issues.

If the player you drafted is never available or active then that's on GM for either drafting the wrong guy or not having the Medical Staff to keep them healthy. So you can't have excuses for this iteration of the Warriors and not for the Magic. That makes no sense.

2. They were still a really bad team regardless if they refused to tank or not. If you're winning around 25 games for several consecutive seasons AND you're not tanking? There might potentially be an issue with the front office.

3. In the 2011-2012 season they did try to tank. Curry went down and was out for the season in early March and they traded away Monta Ellis for an already injured Andrew Bogut around the same time. They lost a ton of game but still ended up with the 7th Pick in the 2012 NBA draft.

You are manipulating things by making things out. Mullin was removed from Golden State in Novemeber of 2009.
So. lie.

YOU. CAN'T. READ

Here is was I'm talking about

Watch on YouTube

Lie number 2.

And than you had audicity to say i was lying

That was an error I admit... But you alluded to him getting hired in 1998 as well so we're both technically wrong. He does get Credit for the 1997-1998 Season so I guess we shorten it up by a season. I knew he was there earlier than 1998 thought he had less control, but he actually had Full-Control by 1997 with a flurry of trades he made before the deadline within the week he was hired.

They are running Orlando Magic organisation for 6 years and in that period they drafted 4 lottery picks ( Suggs, Wagner, Isaac, Bamba). Think what you want about them, it's up to you. one never plays, one is viewed as bench player, other had historiclly awful rookie year, one is very good.
They drafted in middle of first round twice- Okeke & Cole. Both look like projected deep bench guys on serious teams.
They made couple of trades. Including Fultz that in 3 years turned into $40M investment that didn't even reach level of playing 21st pick - turned into- Maxey ends up being, while costing $5M total so far.

There is no star in sight and despite "sucessfully " sucking and tanking, there is no star in draft where you can put all eggs in that bucket.
Next season Magic will again be team with negative record, and they will already be in charge for 7 seasons at that point .At what point sucking stops being new normal ,expectable and acceptable? Because right now it is with them.
This does not even take in account that we talk about two guys in their 60s being on verge of retireing in near future. So there is no "future " with them anyway. Should i remind you that Bucks replaced 60years old Hammond with by 33 years old Jon Horst and Wetlman, who was 55 or 56 i think, was replaced by 34 years Webster ? And both teams won championship by handing teams to younger people? Suprise suprise.

This is all pretty much retread at this point... Like I said I can't argue about the future. I can argue players that show potential but that's about it.

Btw i LOVE how you never wanted to adress how execlly Llyod survived Hennigan being fired and still is lead guy in Magic draft process. Despite drafting draft busts such are Hezonja, Payton, Bamba. Or underachivers ( basically any other player Magic drafted in 11 years , minus Wagner has been underachiver while with Magic ).

This is probably THE MOST RIDICULOUS PART of your argument. You're going dock Weltman and Hammond for still having Lloyd under staff?!?!?!

You know ALL GM's have crap ton of people under staff from the Scouting Team, Analytics Team, to the Assistant GM's to help them gain all the information for the the GM and PBO and come to a decision on players and transactions? If Lloyd was the one making the decisions like he was the GM then have at it. But he's advising the ones who are making the decisions and the primary architects of the team.

LMAO, I can tell at this point that if this team becomes good within the next few seasons you're going to set this up as Lloyd building this team rather WeHam.

[D12VCMagic]

I’m not a fan of the WeltHam regime myself. While I ultimately understand that lack of lottery luck is a big reason why we are where we are, it’s still on them for being so dependent on the draft for success. This draft and develop the old fashion way the Magic have gone since trading Dwight has led to the worst era of Magic basketball ever. I’m not saying we should trade all of our picks like madmen, but it feels like this front office likes minimal changes beyond just making their draft selection most years. The decision to move on from Vooch, Fournier and Gordon were good ones but ultimately made too late. Thankfully we got a haul for Vooch, the one move they have made that has actually paid off.

I have no real solution to the problem, but I’m really tired of just praying for lottery luck and watching slow development of young players instead of actually winning. I still think the DeVos family and Alex Martins deserve most of the blame, but sadly nothing can be done about that. I just want to see a front office interested in winning instead of tanking and developing. Life is way too short to just keep voluntarily throwing away whole years of our lives losing on purpose.