Clamoring about Free Throws

[GeorgeMarcus]

OP is usually one of the more decent posters around here

Way to lose credibility in the first sentence of your post

but this premise is straight nonsense.

I'm not surprised that a fan of the Freethrow Sixers is preemptively making a thread about FTA being down across the league and attempting to somehow (unsuccessfully) to dismantle the argument of preferential treatment for players like Embiid or Harden.

Claiming we need to watch copious amounts of "side by side" footage of Jokic and Embiid or even Lebron and Embiid in order for us to have an opinion is humorous considering most people that watch basketball have watched copious amounts of footage of all those players.
Lebron has led or nearly led the league in drives many seasons and yet his FTA and FTr is significantly lower than Embiid's. I'm a long time Lebron detractor and it's clear to me that he has not benefited extensively from weak FTA calls his entire career.

Jokic is a more glaring example, he's one of the most disrespected stars in the league as far as the contact he takes, defenders frequently use two hands on him in the post.

Comparing total FTA over seasons is silly, it ignores any rule or play-style changes in the league. More 3's are being chucked up which means less contact which means less shooting fouls which means less FTA. That's not a sign that certain players aren't flopping/flailing/hooking/begging for calls - and by certain players I mean Joel Embiid and James Harden.

I can't speak for others but the issue isn't just FTAs, it's how those attempts are garnered. I think most of us are fine with a player getting to the line repeatedly if he's taking real hits and is looking to score the ball not just bait defenders into barely touching them.

Ask this question in your OP - "Which is preferable to you; 30 FTA a game but flops/flails/baiting aren't rewarded or 25 FTA with all the usual Harden tricks"? Most of us will opt for the first despite it being more time at the FT line. We want fairness and currently there isn't any with the way Harden/Embiid are being reffed.

This isn't really something to "have an opinion on" as we have all of the empirical evidence at our disposal and not once has someone presented a cohesive argument supporting the conclusion. That would be the bare minimum as a couple isolated clips mean absolutely nothing. Ironically to your point about watching the games, the ones clinging to these narratives about Joel are the ones who don't watch him every game like I and many other Sixers fans do. Still I would need to use empirical evidence because " I watch the games so I know" is another bull **** argument

[AussieCeltic]

I use my eyes and watch the games.

The way Embiid flopped his way to 19 free throws in the first half of one of the Celtics game was one of the most embarrassing sights I’ve ever seen. He has the highest free throw rate per minute in NBA history. Higher than guys like Shaq who were fouled on purpose because they were horrible free throws shooters.

I’m not hating it’s just pure observation. The guy is skilled enough to not have to do it but he does.

Notice how no one complains about Giannis free throws rate? It’s because he goes up strong and doesn’t flop. If Embiid was on any other team, you’d have a different opinion.

[Curmudgeon]

[list=][/list]The free throw is such an exciting play! The drama! The excitement! They should change the rules to that each team shoots 40+ free throws a game. All those play stoppages create opportunities for additional commercial breaks as well.

Why shouldn't the NBA follow the example set by MLB and completely ruin the game?

[LordCovington33]

I use my eyes and watch the games.

The way Embiid flopped his way to 19 free throws in the first half of one of the Celtics game was one of the most embarrassing sights I’ve ever seen. He has the highest free throw rate per minute in NBA history. Higher than guys like Shaq who were fouled on purpose because they were horrible free throws shooters.

I’m not hating it’s just pure observation. The guy is skilled enough to not have to do it but he does.

Notice how no one complains about Giannis free throws rate? It’s because he goes up strong and doesn’t flop. If Embiid was on any other team, you’d have a different opinion.

Which game are you referring to? This season?

FTA for the entire game
Dec 1, 2021: 10 FTA
Dec 20, 2021: 14FTA
Jan 14, 2022: 9 FTA
Feb 15, 2022: 16 FTA

[BelgradeNugget]

For all of you who wonder how Jokic is officiated this is game 82 of 2017-2018 season. It was the most important game for Nuggets and Wolfes, they were fighting for the playoffs. In this clipp you can see only fouls that were uncalled when he scored. There are no misses. Start from 1:40. Question for everybody - how many and1s were uncalled?

Watch on YouTube

This was how Taj Gibson stoped Jokic on game winning shot

Watch on YouTube

Some more clips

Read on Twitter

Famous 5 fauls in game 1 of WCF

Read on Twitter

?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw

[AussieCeltic]

I use my eyes and watch the games.

The way Embiid flopped his way to 19 free throws in the first half of one of the Celtics game was one of the most embarrassing sights I’ve ever seen. He has the highest free throw rate per minute in NBA history. Higher than guys like Shaq who were fouled on purpose because they were horrible free throws shooters.

I’m not hating it’s just pure observation. The guy is skilled enough to not have to do it but he does.

Notice how no one complains about Giannis free throws rate? It’s because he goes up strong and doesn’t flop. If Embiid was on any other team, you’d have a different opinion.

Which game are you referring to? This season?

FTA for the entire game
Dec 1, 2021: 10 FTA
Dec 20, 2021: 14FTA
Jan 14, 2022: 9 FTA
Feb 15, 2022: 16 FTA

It was the one we won by 48. I got it wrong. It was 14 in the first half.

He didn’t really play in the second half due to the blowout.

[SkyHookFTW]

In the history of the NBA dating back to 1947, the 3 lowest seasons in terms of average FTA were:

3. 2021-2022 (21.9)
2. 2020-2021 (21.8)
1. 2017-2018 (21.7)

This number has been trending downward pretty much from the beginning. My guess is somebody will respond "the problem isn't as much the amount of FTs as it is favoritism toward certain players" but I have never seen compelling evidence supporting this favoritism. In 2 cases (Butler/LeBron, Jokic/Embiid) I watched large samples of footage juxtaposed to each other to get a sense for how they were officiated. In both cases I was completely unmoved. Everybody has access to the footage on the NBA stat pages so I challenge you to conduct your own research if you're so inclined. Watching all field goal attempts sequentially is a pretty good way of doing it in my experience.

Anyway my main point is that a lot of you are full of **** when it comes to this conversation and I patiently await the day you convince me otherwise. I'm a very open minded person.

FTA are down all over except for two players. Doesn't matter. If the sixers win it will simply because the referees deemed it so and fixed it

Are you saying that the refs favor Embiid and Giannis, the current FT leaders per game?

[Lunartic]

This isn't really something to "have an opinion on" as we have all of the empirical evidence at our disposal and not once has someone presented a cohesive argument supporting the conclusion. That would be the bare minimum as a couple isolated clips mean absolutely nothing. Ironically to your point about watching the games, the ones clinging to these narratives about Joel are the ones who don't watch him every game like I and many other Sixers fans do. Still I would need to use empirical evidence because " I watch the games so I know" is another bull **** argument

What exactly are you debating? That freethrows are statistically down from other years? Sure, that's easily proved and doesn't warrant a thread.

That Embiid/Harden aren't the beneficiary of preferential treatment by the refs? That's entirely subjective and dependent on what the individual considers preferential. For me, awarding them FTA for non-basketball plays like in the clip someone posted above or when Harden hooks a defender and pretends he was shooting, or when Harden climbs onto a player's back and is awarded the foul, that is what most of call unfair treatment.

Being objective, we can agree Embiid and Harden have histories of flopping yes? Even their NBA contemporaries have accused them of being floppers on the court. Embiid pretends like he's doing some masterful "trolling" by throwing himself to the ground and getting other players angry at his antics.

Still I would need to use empirical evidence because " I watch the games so I know" is another bull **** argument

and yet, that's exactly what you claimed was the definitive measure to prove your claims.

Watching all field goal attempts sequentially is a pretty good way of doing it in my experience.

Is there some sort of special device one needs to watch the games in order to believe Harden/Embiid aren't getting FTA they don't actually deserve? Perhaps we need VR or some crazy acronym geek stat like LEBRONY or AYTON.

Both players earned their reputations over a period of years and citing that league FTA are down (ignoring context) as proof that neither player is awarded unfair FTA is illogical. Ironically, the fact that during a time when FTA are down league-wide, Embiid has more FTA than he ever has would indicate league trends aren't impacting his foul calls.

Claiming that Lebron and Embiid get the same respect from the refs is just strange, like I mentioned Lebron lived in the paint for years and led the league in drives, took tons of contact with no call. Embiid has had 20+ FTA games from very incidental/minor contact. Trying to measure referee bias in stats is almost impossible as it is intrinsically subjective.

[tdot_steel]

Below are examples of defensive fouls in the current game. In basic basketball, peewee leagues or p/u games these would be play-ons or offensive fouls. But somehow in a professional league they are defensive fouls which is absurd. In both instances the defensive player has perfect position and the offensive player launches himself into the defender. Embiid, Harden and Trai have perfected this BS and the refs refuse to call offensive fouls to stop this tactic.

[LordCovington33]

For all of you who wonder how Jokic is officiated this is game 82 of 2017-2018 season. It was the most important game for Nuggets and Wolfes, they were fighting for the playoffs. In this clipp you can see only fouls that were uncalled when he scored. There are no misses. Start from 1:40. Question for everybody - how many and1s were uncalled?

Watch on YouTube

This was how Taj Gibson stoped Jokic on game winning shot

Watch on YouTube

Some more clips

Read on Twitter

Famous 5 fauls in game 1 of WCF

Read on Twitter

?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw

Using a game from 4 years ago? Lol

[hauntedcomputer]

I am bad at math but 3>1

[BelgradeNugget]

Using a game from 4 years ago? Lol

I used game from 4 years ago which was like play-in game that year, game from WCF and some uncalled obvious fouls from last year. So what you think, how many uncalled fouls you can count from game from 4 years ago? Comment on game from WCF please. Fouls from last year. What you think. Uncalled fouls or not?

[GeorgeMarcus]

This isn't really something to "have an opinion on" as we have all of the empirical evidence at our disposal and not once has someone presented a cohesive argument supporting the conclusion. That would be the bare minimum as a couple isolated clips mean absolutely nothing. Ironically to your point about watching the games, the ones clinging to these narratives about Joel are the ones who don't watch him every game like I and many other Sixers fans do. Still I would need to use empirical evidence because " I watch the games so I know" is another bull **** argument

What exactly are you debating? That freethrows are statistically down from other years? Sure, that's easily proved and doesn't warrant a thread.

That Embiid/Harden aren't the beneficiary of preferential treatment by the refs? That's entirely subjective and dependent on what the individual considers preferential. For me, awarding them FTA for non-basketball plays like in the clip someone posted above or when Harden hooks a defender and pretends he was shooting, or when Harden climbs onto a player's back and is awarded the foul, that is what most of call unfair treatment.

Being objective, we can agree Embiid and Harden have histories of flopping yes? Even their NBA contemporaries have accused them of being floppers on the court. Embiid pretends like he's doing some masterful "trolling" by throwing himself to the ground and getting other players angry at his antics.

Still I would need to use empirical evidence because " I watch the games so I know" is another bull **** argument

and yet, that's exactly what you claimed was the definitive measure to prove your claims.

Watching all field goal attempts sequentially is a pretty good way of doing it in my experience.

Is there some sort of special device one needs to watch the games in order to believe Harden/Embiid aren't getting FTA they don't actually deserve? Perhaps we need VR or some crazy acronym geek stat like LEBRONY or AYTON.

Both players earned their reputations over a period of years and citing that league FTA are down (ignoring context) as proof that neither player is awarded unfair FTA is illogical. Ironically, the fact that during a time when FTA are down league-wide, Embiid has more FTA than he ever has would indicate league trends aren't impacting his foul calls.

Claiming that Lebron and Embiid get the same respect from the refs is just strange, like I mentioned Lebron lived in the paint for years and led the league in drives, took tons of contact with no call. Embiid has had 20+ FTA games from very incidental/minor contact. Trying to measure referee bias in stats is almost impossible as it is intrinsically subjective.

Frankly I just don't agree with you at all. Harden and Embiid are masters at baiting legitimate contact. Yes, that might be annoying from the standpoint of fans, players whatever. But the contact is legitimate and strictly in accordance with the rules. No favoritism.

Honestly I think the main reason people think Embiid flops is because the medical staff drilled into his brain how he should fall to the ground in to prevent further injury. It's pretty obvious what he's doing when you watch him every game. The notion that he "flops" more than other players just isn't one I agree with. And again I don't think it's subjective at all. The league has rules and barring extreme circumstances, it's easy to determine whether those rules are being broken.

[GeorgeMarcus]

I use my eyes and watch the games.

The way Embiid flopped his way to 19 free throws in the first half of one of the Celtics game was one of the most embarrassing sights I’ve ever seen. He has the highest free throw rate per minute in NBA history. Higher than guys like Shaq who were fouled on purpose because they were horrible free throws shooters.

I’m not hating it’s just pure observation. The guy is skilled enough to not have to do it but he does.

Notice how no one complains about Giannis free throws rate? It’s because he goes up strong and doesn’t flop. If Embiid was on any other team, you’d have a different opinion.

Which game are you referring to? This season?

FTA for the entire game
Dec 1, 2021: 10 FTA
Dec 20, 2021: 14FTA
Jan 14, 2022: 9 FTA
Feb 15, 2022: 16 FTA

It was the one we won by 48. I got it wrong. It was 14 in the first half.

He didn’t really play in the second half due to the blowout.

I'll repeat what I said above. I'm pretty sure what you and others are referring to is how Embiid has been taught to fall. It looks goofy seeing a big man falling to the floor so often but it's to prevent future injury. Given his recent ability to stay on the court, I'd say it's paying off.

[AussieCeltic]

Which game are you referring to? This season?

FTA for the entire game
Dec 1, 2021: 10 FTA
Dec 20, 2021: 14FTA
Jan 14, 2022: 9 FTA
Feb 15, 2022: 16 FTA

It was the one we won by 48. I got it wrong. It was 14 in the first half.

He didn’t really play in the second half due to the blowout.

I'll repeat what I said above. I'm pretty sure what you and others are referring to is how Embiid has been taught to fall. It looks goofy seeing a big man falling to the floor so often but it's to prevent future injury. Given his recent ability to stay on the court, I'd say it's paying off.

Haha no. He was flopping bringing the ball up. He flopped getting a defensive rebound. Just land on your feet. Even if what you’re saying is true, he’s getting rewarded for falling so he doesn’t injure himself? It’s flat out pathetic

[GreatWhiteStiff]

I'm glad to see George Marcus and other's approaching this sensititve issue in totally unbiased ways and in a professional manner. Carry on.

[LordCovington33]

I'm glad to see George Marcus and other's approaching this sensititve issue in totally unbiased ways and in a professional manner. Carry on.

Others are not? “Flopping his way to 19FTAs” and doesn’t even get the number correct, believing nobody will fact check. And how many of those were flops? (According to the quote, it must have been the vast majority - but no evidence presented to support that)
Yes, he doesn’t always land on his feet. 2 flops out of 14+ fouls for a Knicks match once cited as awful flopping in another thread. That was 15% give or take, which means it is an exception rather than the rule. But here, you wouldn’t believe that. Funny how he is being mentioned by a certain fan, when a guard on his own team is/was notorious for flopping fouls.

[LordCovington33]

I'm glad to see George Marcus and other's approaching this sensititve issue in totally unbiased ways and in a professional manner. Carry on.

Others are not? “Flopping his way to 19FTAs” and doesn’t even get the number correct, believing nobody will fact check. And how many of those were flops? (According to the quote, it must have been the vast majority - but no evidence presented to support that)
Yes, he doesn’t always land on his feet. 2 flops out of 14+ fouls for a Knicks match once cited as awful flopping in another thread. That was 15% give or take, which means it is an exception rather than the rule. But here, you wouldn’t believe that. Funny how he is being mentioned by a certain fan, when a guard on his own team is/was notorious for flopping fouls.
An exaggerated narrative like I said earlier.

[GreatWhiteStiff]

Embiid has indeed trained himself to fall down, GeorgeMarcus. This I believe in, perhaps even with the exclusion of anything else, this I believe in.

[GreatWhiteStiff]

The raptors just dropped Embiid again. No call this time.