Moderators: Rich Rane, NyCeEvO
3pt_chucker wrote:Leaving out Simmons and Time Lord the Nets have more of the 10 best players in the series:
1. KD
2. Tatum
3. KAI
4. J. Brown
5. Smart
6. Curry
7. Brown
8. Drummond
9. Horford
10. Clax
How people can predict the Celtics in a blow out is beyond me.
Netaman wrote:Prokorov wrote:Netaman wrote:
Their record with KD this year is 36-19 (.655 winning%). A lot of those games obviously without Kyrie bc of the vax. None with Simmons. Probably half with Harden. Almost none with a "big 3".
The #1 seed Miami Heat winning% is .646.
When KD is on the court they can and often do beat anyone. Despite circumstances around him.
Your whining about Marks is just frustration over injuries. And Harden quitting like a bitch. And Kyrie being unreliable. And Nash being a **** coach. And Joe Harris choking like a dog last year.
Nash is literally the only one of those things that was somewhat controllable, and im quite certain he'll be gone if they have a disappointing exit. In fact im quite certain he'll be gone if KD wants him gone regardless of how they exit - even if they win a championship. If Simmons can simply come back and play PJ Tucker D on Giannis and there are no further injuries in this tune-up series vs. Boston, the Nets are raising a banner.
Nash should already be gone. we'd be a 1 seed with any other coach
Ok on that we probably agree, but like i said i think it's KD decision, like every other NBA player on his level.
Firing Marks reflexively would be stupid. Especially since most every Nets fan/observer (and I think you included) would have made the exact same calculations signing Kyrie (even though he's unreliable), trading for Harden (even though he was a quitter), and extending Harris (even though he's a 1 trick pony).
We can tell ourselves fairy tales about how there were other things that could overcome those 3 situations but it would be bs. There were no better fairy tales than the ones Marks made happen in the last couple months with Curry/Drummond/Simmons and Dragic.
HardenGoat wrote:Nash as bad as he is almost beat the Bucks last year with a one legged Harden and no Kyrie plus a pitiful performance from one of the best 3 point shooters in the league. Marks has assembled a solid team despite the challenges we have all seen. So basically Durant is so gifted and such a competitor he nearly overcame the enormous set backs he was dealing with last year (coach included). You guys are going to win this series and be in the finals is what I see coming barring any injuries. Here’s hoping for your health to persevere.
Paradise wrote:
gigantes wrote:Agree with 90% of what you're saying, Netaman. Marks can make some big gambles, and still has room to grow, but ousting him and hoping the next person can do better is pretty much the acme of foolishness to me.
Also, I think it's a fine point you make that so many players have come through BRK under Marks' watch, had productive experiences here, and added major value to their careers. It's another nice example of a culture and performance team that hard-working players enjoy and benefit from, adding to the Nets' positive reputation around the league as a great place to play. That's big-time stuff IMO.
On a completely different note, slamming Joe Harris as you guys do makes little rational sense to me, and it's almost as bad as those calling for Marks' head IMO.
Joe..? Joe's been pretty much *stellar* at everything we could possibly have asked from him over the years. He's a slightly below-average NBA athlete and non-gifted defender as I see it, who by virtue of being a total gym rat and hustling his ass off on the court, has transformed himself in to one of the league's best shooters, an always-useful cog in the offense, and even a neutral defender.
He's perfect as a complimentary guy who gets his minutes capped at no more than about 30mpg, and the only two series he disappointed in, he was asked to be more of a #2 guy and average about 5-6 more minutes per game. Well, that's just not him, and IMO he got predictably run in to the ground, not unlike various other players under Nash. The difference in his case I think is that, likely being a hustle guy without great athleticism, he gets worn down quicker than some others by the extra minutes & defensive attention.
Joe's contract isn't a bargain anymore, and I don't mind moving him in the right deal, but the guy's simply not the problem IMO.
Prokorov wrote:Netaman wrote:My biggest gripe with Nash is overplaying KD. It's clear in the games where he almost doesn't come off the floor and plays the entire 4Q he gets worn down. In the last couple weeks we've seen a ton of uncharacteristic turnovers from KD and it looked like pure fatigue.
But that's also how we know Nash is the coach KD wants, executing KD's exact wishes. Read between the lines a little and that's the only thing that fits with the ridiculous comments Nash has made after those games where it sounds like he doesn't have a say in that situation even though he's "the coach".
Last year in game 6/7 vs. MIL was one thing, but this year it's another. They have a deeper roster.
Also his minutes decisions last year pretty much sucked too. Joe Harris killed them and he was playing almost the entire games vs. Milwaukee too. It was pathetic watching Pat Connaughton jump in for his 10 mpg and outproduce Joe.
But this year's team is deeper THANKS TO MARKS and the deadline deal. Last year's team was 3 guys (2 hurt) + 1 choker + uncle Jeff. This year they could actually have a functioning team if Nash would just allow it. They need to keep running Drummond and Claxton on screens and rolls. Keep Seth/Brown involved. Keep running the offense from the foul line area where it forces the defense into help decisions. Let KD eat on the elbows and let Kyrie/Seth knock down 3's. keep the dribble into the corner fadeaways to a minimum.
We defintely have a better deeper roster then last years playoffs. and a more diverse one. Last year our only bigs were Blake and Claxton who hadnt played much. we had no rebounding. now we have Drummond. We have seth who is more then just a standstill shooter. We have dragic as a legit PG isntead of chiozza/james.
Issue is we dont have Ime/D'antoni. which is a big big difference. We also come in playing terrible basketball and with an abused KD minutes wise.
I dont want to hear "we won 5 in a row" that was vs. trash teams and we sucked in all those games despite the win.
This team/coachng staff needs to show me this is more then a .500 team. i dont believe it. I think Kyrie/KD will show up big but it wont matter.
We basically need to score 120 and hold opponents to 115. Kd/Kyrie will generate 85-95. where do the rest come from?
Netaman wrote:gigantes wrote:Agree with 90% of what you're saying, Netaman. Marks can make some big gambles, and still has room to grow, but ousting him and hoping the next person can do better is pretty much the acme of foolishness to me.
Also, I think it's a fine point you make that so many players have come through BRK under Marks' watch, had productive experiences here, and added major value to their careers. It's another nice example of a culture and performance team that hard-working players enjoy and benefit from, adding to the Nets' positive reputation around the league as a great place to play. That's big-time stuff IMO.
On a completely different note, slamming Joe Harris as you guys do makes little rational sense to me, and it's almost as bad as those calling for Marks' head IMO.
Joe..? Joe's been pretty much *stellar* at everything we could possibly have asked from him over the years. He's a slightly below-average NBA athlete and non-gifted defender as I see it, who by virtue of being a total gym rat and hustling his ass off on the court, has transformed himself in to one of the league's best shooters, an always-useful cog in the offense, and even a neutral defender.
He's perfect as a complimentary guy who gets his minutes capped at no more than about 30mpg, and the only two series he disappointed in, he was asked to be more of a #2 guy and average about 5-6 more minutes per game. Well, that's just not him, and IMO he got predictably run in to the ground, not unlike various other players under Nash. The difference in his case I think is that, likely being a hustle guy without great athleticism, he gets worn down quicker than some others by the extra minutes & defensive attention.
Joe's contract isn't a bargain anymore, and I don't mind moving him in the right deal, but the guy's simply not the problem IMO.
Joe is fine and I don't mean to (or enjoy) crush(ing) him, but he cost them an NBA championship last year. That's just facts.
The injuries this year are unfortunate but after his choke last year when they desperately needed him I wasn't counting on him in the postseason anyway.
So my point with Joe was more as it relates to Marks:
great job by marks finding joe
great job by marks extending joe
not marks fault joe choked and cost us a ring
not marks fault joes ankles needed surgery
great job by marks replacing (upgrading imo) joe with curry
i have no issue with joe coming back next year and hopefully being a key part of a championship team, though im not counting on it because 2 ankle surgeries for an under athletic player seems like a risk.
Netaman wrote:
Joe is fine and I don't mean to (or enjoy) crush(ing) him, but he cost them an NBA championship last year. That's just facts.
Netaman wrote:Prokorov wrote:Netaman wrote:My biggest gripe with Nash is overplaying KD. It's clear in the games where he almost doesn't come off the floor and plays the entire 4Q he gets worn down. In the last couple weeks we've seen a ton of uncharacteristic turnovers from KD and it looked like pure fatigue.
But that's also how we know Nash is the coach KD wants, executing KD's exact wishes. Read between the lines a little and that's the only thing that fits with the ridiculous comments Nash has made after those games where it sounds like he doesn't have a say in that situation even though he's "the coach".
Last year in game 6/7 vs. MIL was one thing, but this year it's another. They have a deeper roster.
Also his minutes decisions last year pretty much sucked too. Joe Harris killed them and he was playing almost the entire games vs. Milwaukee too. It was pathetic watching Pat Connaughton jump in for his 10 mpg and outproduce Joe.
But this year's team is deeper THANKS TO MARKS and the deadline deal. Last year's team was 3 guys (2 hurt) + 1 choker + uncle Jeff. This year they could actually have a functioning team if Nash would just allow it. They need to keep running Drummond and Claxton on screens and rolls. Keep Seth/Brown involved. Keep running the offense from the foul line area where it forces the defense into help decisions. Let KD eat on the elbows and let Kyrie/Seth knock down 3's. keep the dribble into the corner fadeaways to a minimum.
We defintely have a better deeper roster then last years playoffs. and a more diverse one. Last year our only bigs were Blake and Claxton who hadnt played much. we had no rebounding. now we have Drummond. We have seth who is more then just a standstill shooter. We have dragic as a legit PG isntead of chiozza/james.
Issue is we dont have Ime/D'antoni. which is a big big difference. We also come in playing terrible basketball and with an abused KD minutes wise.
I dont want to hear "we won 5 in a row" that was vs. trash teams and we sucked in all those games despite the win.
This team/coachng staff needs to show me this is more then a .500 team. i dont believe it. I think Kyrie/KD will show up big but it wont matter.
We basically need to score 120 and hold opponents to 115. Kd/Kyrie will generate 85-95. where do the rest come from?
where do 25-35 points come from? is that seriously a concern?
13 points from Curry (averaged 15 this year both with phi/nets)
10 points from Drummond (averaged 12 as a net)
10 points from Brown (averaged 15 ppg in march/april)
4 points/2 dunks per game from Claxton (averaged 9 ppg this year)
those are pretty safe/conservative estimates and they easily clear the high end of your range.
Prokorov wrote:Netaman wrote:
Joe is fine and I don't mean to (or enjoy) crush(ing) him, but he cost them an NBA championship last year. That's just facts.
Ridiculous take. Nash asked joe to play 45+ minutes and be a focal part of the offense in a grueling 7 game series. of course his legs wouldn't hold up and his shooting would dip. meanwhile, he had another 40% shooter from 3 in shamet rotting on the bench.
Cant blame role guys for not being ultra reliable in 45 minutes of playoff basketball
Nash F'd us last year and he is this year even more without dantoni and ime to help keep the ship afloat.
nash was marks hire. marks needs to go. marks killed any chance we had of a title. and wont remove the major issue which is nash
Netaman wrote:Prokorov wrote:Netaman wrote:
Joe is fine and I don't mean to (or enjoy) crush(ing) him, but he cost them an NBA championship last year. That's just facts.
Ridiculous take. Nash asked joe to play 45+ minutes and be a focal part of the offense in a grueling 7 game series. of course his legs wouldn't hold up and his shooting would dip. meanwhile, he had another 40% shooter from 3 in shamet rotting on the bench.
Cant blame role guys for not being ultra reliable in 45 minutes of playoff basketball
Nash F'd us last year and he is this year even more without dantoni and ime to help keep the ship afloat.
nash was marks hire. marks needs to go. marks killed any chance we had of a title. and wont remove the major issue which is nash
We are really blaming Nash because Harris shot 24%?
They won the boston series in 5 games and 4 days off ahead of the bucks series. Harris played 35 mpg vs. Boston, after playing 31 mpg regular season. He shot 50% from 3 in that series and had 2 games at 37 min.
Games 1 and 2 vs. MIL Harris was fine and played 30/34 minutes. Nets won both easily.
Game 3 he shot 1/11 from the field, 1/7 from 3, and the Nets lost by 3. He played 37 minutes and obviously many of those misses were happening while he was within his typical minutes. Hardly overuse given Kyrie injury.
Game 4 he shot 3/8 in 38 minutes.
Game 5 he shot 2/11 with another 1/7 from 3 in 37 minutes. Nets won despite him.
Game 6 he shot 4/9, 1/4 from 3 in 36 minutes.
And the coup de grace in game 7 - 3/10 from the field, 3/9 from 3, in a game that went to OT and lost by 4. He played 47 min because they went to OT.
For the series he averaged 37 mpg. Sorry but you lose 2 of your starting guards, a 5 minute step up from regular season is not running a guy into the ground. The only game he went over 38 minutes was game 7. And I watched every minute of those games just like you guys, a lot of those 3's were wide open.
His game 3 performance cost them the series and he had 4 games after that to redeem himself and he had good games in 0/4. When you are paid 70m to do 1 thing, and you don't do it when it's needed most, you choked. Let's stop making excuses. Nash's coaching sucked but that's not why Joe Harris only made 8/33 from 3 in games 3-7. He hits literally 1 or 2 more open shots in that series to help KD and they get the rings.
Netaman wrote:...a 5 minute step up from regular season is not running a guy into the ground...
After Harris shot just 19 percent from 3 in a 2018-19 first-round exit, he started off strong in these playoffs, hitting at 51 percent to finish plus-101 through the Nets’ 6-1 start. But he slumped to 24.2 percent for a minus-51 over the last five, with the Nets losing four of them. And Game 7 may have been the most galling.
Harris went 3 of 9 and missed an open 3 that could’ve put Brooklyn ahead by three with under a minute left in OT. The Bucks rebounded and came down for what turned out to be the winning basket.
“Obviously I’m disappointed. I wish I’d played better,” Harris said. “I wish I would’ve shot more efficiently, help alleviate some of the pressure that other guys were facing.
“But this is the situation that we’re in. And frankly, had I played better, we might be in a little bit of a different spot. So it’s definitely going to be a motivating factor for me in this offseason going forward.”
gigantes wrote:Netaman wrote:...a 5 minute step up from regular season is not running a guy into the ground...
Kind of a bizarre take when you list a bunch of numbers which disprove the thrust of your own argument. As in-- you state yourself that Joe played well over his average versus BOS, and then well over his average again vs. MIL.
Also, just because Joe's shooting held up for a while doesn't mean that the extra burn wouldn't have a cumulative, negative effect. Pretty clearly it did. Cumulative fatigue is a real thing just like sleep deficit is a real thing.
Again, I'm asserting that Joe's best at 30-31mpg, and his production clearly dips when A) he's forced to go significantly over that for too long, and B) forced to be more of a lead option, with that much more defensive focus on him.
As for your quoted statement, the guy's not a basketball cyborg or something. Different players have different bodies, and some bodies don't hold up as well to extra minutes. If you want to get mad at Joe for not being as resilient as someone like KD, then that's fine, but it's a different argument.
Point is, it's not about Joe randomly melting down for no reason whatsoever. That to me is just a fairy tale running through some peoples' heads, probably because they need someone or something to blame.
ben10simmons wrote:Its quite breathtaking how devastated the Celtics will be if they lose Game 1
Breathtaking level of devastation.
