2021-22 NBA Season Discussion

70sFan · Post #2381 » by **70sFan** » Sun Apr 17, 2022 6:38 am

I truly had some unreasonable hope that Nuggets will be able to compete, but I'm afraid they won't win a single game...

Post #2382 » by **Outside** » Sun Apr 17, 2022 7:24 am

Overreacting to game 1 is tempting, but each game is different and you have to see how a series goes.

parsnips33 · Post #2383 » by **parsnips33** » Sun Apr 17, 2022 7:40 am

Loved that defense on Jokic, executed perfectly. Just 1 game, but very encouraging performance all around

MyUniBroDavis · Post #2384 » by **MyUniBroDavis** » Sun Apr 17, 2022 10:58 am

God it’s nice to root for the Warriors lmfao

Post #2385 » by **tsherkin** » Sun Apr 17, 2022 1:26 pm

LAL1947 wrote:Nash definitely stole an MVP from Kobe in 2005-06 (I feel Duncan stole one from Kobe in 2002-03 too)...

Ah, this BS again.

Kobe was FOURTH in the MVP race. Nash didn't steal anything; voters looked at Nash, Lebron and Dirk ahead of Kobe that year. This narrative that Nash somehow cost Kobe an MVP he wasn't close to winning anyway is nonsense. Granted, Kobe had more first-place votes than Lebron or Dirk, but fewer total points in that vote.

You can very much make the argument that Kobe authored a similar level of offensive impact on the Lakers as did Nash on the Suns, but that he didn't have the teammates to enjoy more success. That's pretty legit. But people really need to stop crapping on Nash like he didn't deserve that MVP, because he had an outstanding season and unquestionably drove that squad's success.

Dutchball97 · Post #2386 » by **Dutchball97** » Sun Apr 17, 2022 1:41 pm

tsherkin wrote:
LAL1947 wrote:Nash definitely stole an MVP from Kobe in 2005-06 (I feel Duncan stole one from Kobe in 2002-03 too)...

Ah, this BS again.

Kobe was FOURTH in the MVP race. Nash didn't steal anything; voters looked at Nash, Lebron and Dirk ahead of Kobe that year. This narrative that Nash somehow cost Kobe an MVP he wasn't close to winning anyway is nonsense. Granted, Kobe had more first-place votes than Lebron or Dirk, but fewer total points in that vote.

You can very much make the argument that Kobe authored a similar level of offensive impact on the Lakers as did Nash on the Suns, but that he didn't have the teammates to enjoy more success. That's pretty legit. But people really need to stop crapping on Nash like he didn't deserve that MVP, because he had an outstanding season and unquestionably drove that squad's success.

At least the 2006 MVP race was pretty open with 5 different players receiving double digit first place votes. In 2003 Kobe was third but he was way behind the real two-man race between Duncan and KG, probably didn't help Kobe was still next to prime Shaq while Duncan and KG had very little help.

Post #2387 » by **tsherkin** » Sun Apr 17, 2022 1:46 pm

Dutchball97 wrote:At least the 2006 MVP race was pretty open with 5 different players receiving double digit first place votes. In 2003 Kobe was third but he was way behind the real two-man race between Duncan and KG, probably didn't help Kobe was still next to prime Shaq while Duncan and KG had very little help.

Surely.

And again, it's not about crapping on Kobe. 11 years with top-5 MVP award share finishes? Remarkable. 5 times in the top 3, and he was 2nd in 2009 as well. And as you say, he was third in 2003 behind Duncan and Garnett. Stiff competition, and the voting wasn't close. Garnett had 43 first-place votes to Kobe's 8, and Duncan won with 60. This whole idea of "stealing MVPs" is just nonsense. Kobe ran into some remarkable competition at every phase of his career, which is unfortunate, but you can see his skill and such through over a decade of top 5 finishes, which is itself pretty impressive.

Dutchball97 · Post #2388 » by **Dutchball97** » Sun Apr 17, 2022 1:57 pm

tsherkin wrote:
Dutchball97 wrote:At least the 2006 MVP race was pretty open with 5 different players receiving double digit first place votes. In 2003 Kobe was third but he was way behind the real two-man race between Duncan and KG, probably didn't help Kobe was still next to prime Shaq while Duncan and KG had very little help.

Surely.

And again, it's not about crapping on Kobe. 11 years with top-5 MVP award share finishes? Remarkable. 5 times in the top 3, and he was 2nd in 2009 as well. And as you say, he was third in 2003 behind Duncan and Garnett. Stiff competition, and the voting wasn't close. Garnett had 43 first-place votes to Kobe's 8, and Duncan won with 60. This whole idea of "stealing MVPs" is just nonsense. Kobe ran into some remarkable competition at every phase of his career, which is unfortunate, but you can see his skill and such through over a decade of top 5 finishes, which is itself pretty impressive.

Kobe was definitely "MVP level" for many years, which probably should be more important than his actual number of awards. After all these awards will always be subjective. I'd say Kobe was arguably more deserving of the MVP in 2006 than when he actually won it in 2008. If he had won multiple MVP awards or if he hadn't won any, he'd still be the same player.

Post #2389 » by **tsherkin** » Sun Apr 17, 2022 2:15 pm

Dutchball97 wrote:Kobe was definitely "MVP level" for many years, which probably should be more important than his actual number of awards.

Agreed, I've been looking at shifting to weighing top-3 and top-5 finishes a little more heavily than raw MVPs, depending on the specific voting in any given season. You look at, say, a season like 2000 when Shaq had 120 first-place votes and no one else was really in the running and how other people finished in that season becomes less important, you know? That year, Shaq was 3 points away from the theoretical maximum. Or maybe weighing that MVP a little more heavily while still respecting who was there in the top 5 kind of thing.

I'd say Kobe was arguably more deserving of the MVP in 2006 than when he actually won it in 2008.

An interesting thought. Certainly some statistical backup for the thought as well if you look at OWS and OBPM, for what they're worth. Obviously would love to see some of the historical RAPM data and all that to go along with it. The Lakers won 12 more games in 2008, and Pau didn't start playing for them until February 5th. They were 30-16 before Pau, then 27-9 after him. Notably better, but LA was still on pace for 53, 54 wins even without him. Ripped off that 10-game winning streak shortly after his arrival and really got tearing, though. They were more on 61-, 62-win pace with him over that shorter sample. Anyway, point being, Kobe didn't need to do quite as much that year, so perhaps some of his numbers weren't as good as they might have been. Then again, it could be more than his game supported the offense to a lesser degree, so the production numbers and all that going down meant a slightly lesser overall level of play, despite superior team success. 28/6/5 on 107 TS+ certainly wasn't a bad year, haha.

I can certainly see the 2006 > 2008 argument for Kobe. As you say though, it doesn't really matter. He was the guy around whom the team was built, and he was quite good.

GSWFan1994 · Post #2390 » by **GSWFan1994** » Sun Apr 17, 2022 3:32 pm

Please someone explain to me how Maxey is able to have such an usage and efficiency, yet still average such an extremely low number of TOs.

He averaged 1.2 for the season, and had zero yesterday in the 1st game of the playoffs.

Pretty sure there's some stat about this, it's historic for sure.

falcolombardi · Post #2391 » by **falcolombardi** » Sun Apr 17, 2022 8:02 pm

atlanta got wrecked jesus

to be fair they came into this game exhausted so maybe it is not too conclusive but miami great defense stiffled them and their ball movement exposes atlanta defense

wonder what adjustments mcmillan will do

edit:on other news boston vs nets is looking as good as advertised

Post #2392 » by **tsherkin** » Sun Apr 17, 2022 8:43 pm

GSWFan1994 wrote:Please someone explain to me how Maxey is able to have such an usage and efficiency, yet still average such an extremely low number of TOs.

He averaged 1.2 for the season, and had zero yesterday in the 1st game of the playoffs.

Pretty sure there's some stat about this, it's historic for sure.

If you're talking about for a single game? Look at Jordan and you'll probably find a pile of examples of him doing it before. If you meant on the season, doubtful, because he was only at 20% USG. The turnover rate was, however, commendable. For the game, he was only at 28.4% USG. It was a phenomenal scoring performance, but what you're trying to highlight wasn't really there. Dude savaged the Raps like a barbarian, though, that's without a doubt.

sp6r=underrated · Post #2393 » by **sp6r=underrated** » Sun Apr 17, 2022 9:45 pm

God I hope Celtics comeback and win. A Nets win would be a disaster for basketball and any non-Nets fan should root for Boston.

As a lifelong hater of Boston clubs this is painful but go Celtics

Post #2394 » by **Fadeaway_J** » Sun Apr 17, 2022 9:49 pm

Man Kyrie is something else.

Post #2395 » by **tsherkin** » Sun Apr 17, 2022 9:51 pm

sp6r=underrated wrote:God I hope Celtics comeback and win. A Nets win would be a disaster for basketball and any non-Nets fan should root for Boston.

"A disaster for basketball?"

Post #2396 » by **Fadeaway_J** » Sun Apr 17, 2022 9:52 pm

sp6r=underrated wrote:God I hope Celtics comeback and win. A Nets win would be a disaster for basketball and any non-Nets fan should root for Boston.

As a lifelong hater of Boston clubs this is painful but go Celtics

Not gonna happen

sp6r=underrated · Post #2397 » by **sp6r=underrated** » Sun Apr 17, 2022 9:54 pm

tsherkin wrote:
sp6r=underrated wrote:God I hope Celtics comeback and win. A Nets win would be a disaster for basketball and any non-Nets fan should root for Boston.

"A disaster for basketball?"

Yes:

1. Want players/teams to take RS seriously. A Nets win says that is stupid. Teams will start considering resting their stars for a majority of games.
2. Want teams to take coaching seriously. A Nets win says that is stupid.
3. Want teams to take teambuilding seriously beyond spamming superstars. A Nets win says that is stupid.
4. Want basketball analysis beyond "flip a lightswitch" or "they got offensive stars." A Nets win says that is stupid.

Post #2398 » by **tsherkin** » Sun Apr 17, 2022 9:57 pm

sp6r=underrated wrote:[
1. Want players/teams to take RS seriously. A Nets win says that is stupid. Teams will start considering resting their stars for a majority of games.
2. Want teams to take coaching seriously. A Nets win says that is stupid.
3. Want teams to take teambuilding seriously beyond spamming superstars. A Nets win says that is stupid.

As opposed to how teams already rest their stars? Remember Pops?

I think this take is perhaps a shade hyperbolic, though I see the concern. In the end, though, teams do this in one fashion or another already. The regular season is a long grind and there is a point after which you receive diminishing returns on RS record, so why go that hard as long as you secure the seed you're after?

falcolombardi · Post #2399 » by **falcolombardi** » Sun Apr 17, 2022 9:59 pm

the nba could simply cut 8-10 games from schedule and emiminate back to backs

that alone would fix a lot of the load management problem

Post #2400 » by **Fadeaway_J** » Sun Apr 17, 2022 10:01 pm

tsherkin wrote:
sp6r=underrated wrote:[
1. Want players/teams to take RS seriously. A Nets win says that is stupid. Teams will start considering resting their stars for a majority of games.
2. Want teams to take coaching seriously. A Nets win says that is stupid.
3. Want teams to take teambuilding seriously beyond spamming superstars. A Nets win says that is stupid.

As opposed to how teams already rest their stars? Remember Pops?

I think this take is perhaps a shade hyperbolic, though I see the concern. In the end, though, teams do this in one fashion or another already. The regular season is a long grind and there is a point after which you receive diminishing returns on RS record, so why go that hard as long as you secure the seed you're after?

Also, the Nets didn't decide not to take the regular season seriously. One of their stars got injured, another refused to get vaccinated, and the third dogged his way into a trade.