Come one, come all! See the marvelous DeMar DeFrozen and his disappearing act!

Moderators: Clav, Domejandro, ken6199, bisme37, Dirk, KingDavid, cupcakesnake, bwgood77, zimpy27, infinite11285

User avatar
Vampirate
Lead Assistant
Posts: 5,649
And1: 4,483
Joined: Dec 04, 2016
     

Re: Come one, come all! See the marvelous DeMar DeFrozen and his disappearing act! 

Post#121 » by Vampirate » Mon Apr 18, 2022 6:29 pm

Johnny Bball wrote:
Vampirate wrote:I mean, the Lowry/Derozan Raptors got swept by the 1 man Lebron Cavs for a reason. Demar was one of those reasons.


Damn, I know most raptor fans memories are just slanted, but this is just terrible.


I'm referring to that season to where Kyrie peaced out on the Cavs (yeah, they still had Love, but the team overall was a shell of itself without Kyrie I think), and then soon after the Cavs traded half their roster lol.

I believe the very young and green Celtics actually gave that Cavs a run for their money in the playoffs that season.
Image
tsherkin
Forum Mod - Raptors
Forum Mod - Raptors
Posts: 92,310
And1: 31,884
Joined: Oct 14, 2003
 

Re: Come one, come all! See the marvelous DeMar DeFrozen and his disappearing act! 

Post#122 » by tsherkin » Mon Apr 18, 2022 6:30 pm

DreamTeam09 wrote:
So what does that mean, the DeMar shouldn't be in the NBA?? Or that mgmt should try and collect the best assortment of players / schemes to surround your players to try and acquire the chip.


Reductio ad absurdem much?

There is a wide space between "shouldnt be a #1 option on a contending team" and "shouldnt be in the league." Let us not play silly games.

Demar has utility in a variety of roles. And on a weaker team (like the Raps squads he played on at first), he has utility for building playoff consistency. Pulling a team out of a gutter like we were in, for example (alongside appropriate other talent).

But on a team looking to contend against the elite, you need to move to the next kind of option. That's all. The Raptors were able to go on some decent playoff runs with him, but he held them back because he wasnt a given level of player. That's not a sin, per se, but it matters if a title is actually the goal. Hence the trade.

For a team that is just trying to get into the playoffs and maybe win a round, he's a decent option. And if you support your offense with a high-efficiency second option and can play a decent possession-protrection game, you can extend utility some. We did that with Lowry, for example. And if you can rebound well offensively, you can make up some for his low-efficiency volume 2s. Improving team D (which he doesnt help much) can afford you some more leeway as well.

So there are mitigating factors to a certain degree of tolerance. Working around a lower-tier volume scorer to build the best team possible. Especially in this era, it's fairly hard to get away with someone like Demar if you're legitimately attempting to contend. This is only further exacerbated by his poor playoff habits and performance.

Teams will do what they must, but everyone in Toronto and San Antonio knew where this was going to go for Chicago. It's okay. They made the playoffs. Demar may improve some as the series goes on and be a bit more competitive. He usually isnt THIS bad, I mean he does have skill. Long defenders frustrate him, always have. He finishes well at the rim when he gets there, but can be kept away from that fairly easily, especially because he does a lot of isolations. Frustratingly, as a younger player, he was a better off-ball slasher than he has been since turning into a primary option. He has fallen victim to hero ball-itis like a turn-of-the-century And-1 baller, and fallen hard. And since he isnt a consistent/reliable 3pt shooter (his RS 3P% this year notwithstanding), you cant really use him as a significant catch-and-shoot option. So he is where he is. When the Js fall, he's good. When they don't, he js garbage. Such is the capricious nature of jumpshooting.
User avatar
Baski
Lead Assistant
Posts: 4,533
And1: 3,950
Joined: Feb 09, 2017
   

Re: Come one, come all! See the marvelous DeMar DeFrozen and his disappearing act! 

Post#123 » by Baski » Mon Apr 18, 2022 6:46 pm

I'd probably wanna wait for the series to be over tbh. Demar is a good hardworking dude who has legit become a better player and I do have some hope that he can figure some stuff out in this series.
tsherkin
Forum Mod - Raptors
Forum Mod - Raptors
Posts: 92,310
And1: 31,884
Joined: Oct 14, 2003
 

Re: Come one, come all! See the marvelous DeMar DeFrozen and his disappearing act! 

Post#124 » by tsherkin » Mon Apr 18, 2022 6:51 pm

Baski wrote:I'd probably wanna wait for the series to be over tbh. Demar is a good hardworking dude who has legit become a better player and I do have some hope that he can figure some stuff out in this series.


Raw probability says that he should have at least one or two games closer to what we saw in the RS, even with Milwaukee's length,for sure. That level of shots not falling wont likely happen to him every game. Even when he was playing in Toronto, he wasnt legendarily bad every playoff game. He had some good ones, some bad ones and some mediocre ones. If he plays at a mediocre level instead of a "mythically incompetent" level as a scorer, game 1 looks a lot different, for sure
User avatar
druggas
General Manager
Posts: 7,587
And1: 6,012
Joined: Dec 27, 2007

Re: Come one, come all! See the marvelous DeMar DeFrozen and his disappearing act! 

Post#125 » by druggas » Mon Apr 18, 2022 7:00 pm

BrianFitz wrote:
druggas wrote:
KGtabake wrote:It's sad to see raptors fans mocking DeRozan.
It doesn't honor much of the fanbase.

DeRozan was a guy that loved playing there and he helped making them a force in the east after being a bad team for years. Cmon raptors fans you can be a lot better than this.

Celtics and Kyrie come to mind?


Not even close to the same situation. Do you even follow NBA?

I absolutely do. How about you?
User avatar
Baski
Lead Assistant
Posts: 4,533
And1: 3,950
Joined: Feb 09, 2017
   

Re: Come one, come all! See the marvelous DeMar DeFrozen and his disappearing act! 

Post#126 » by Baski » Mon Apr 18, 2022 7:04 pm

tsherkin wrote:
Baski wrote:I'd probably wanna wait for the series to be over tbh. Demar is a good hardworking dude who has legit become a better player and I do have some hope that he can figure some stuff out in this series.


Raw probability says that he should have at least one or two games closer to what we saw in the RS, even with Milwaukee's length,for sure. That level of shots not falling wont likely happen to him every game. Even when he was playing in Toronto, he wasnt legendarily bad every playoff game. He had some good ones, some bad ones and some mediocre ones. If he plays at a mediocre level instead of a "mythically incompetent" level as a scorer, game 1 looks a lot different, for sure

True. I really liked what I saw from the Bulls in game 1 and admittedly the difference between a win and a loss was Demar's performance. But then again they're playing the defending champs who have spent years perfecting their defensive system with a relatively consistent core. My thinking is that Demar, and the entire Bulls team was hit hard with how "real" PO defense is compared to RS (Yes Demar should be used to it by now, but he doesn't seem to have the instinctual ability to switch to PO mode that other players have). It was ugly for both teams so it very well could be first game jitters. Pretty reasonable to expect better shooting from both sides over the course of the series.
User avatar
HomoSapien
Senior Mod - Bulls
Senior Mod - Bulls
Posts: 37,312
And1: 30,348
Joined: Aug 17, 2009
 

Re: Come one, come all! See the marvelous DeMar DeFrozen and his disappearing act! 

Post#127 » by HomoSapien » Mon Apr 18, 2022 7:05 pm

Baski wrote:I'd probably wanna wait for the series to be over tbh. Demar is a good hardworking dude who has legit become a better player and I do have some hope that he can figure some stuff out in this series.


How dare you inject a reasonable take into this thread.
ThreeYearPlan wrote:Bulls fans defend HomoSapien more than Rose.
User avatar
PD28
General Manager
Posts: 8,904
And1: 13,975
Joined: Jan 04, 2013
 

Re: Come one, come all! See the marvelous DeMar DeFrozen and his disappearing act! 

Post#128 » by PD28 » Mon Apr 18, 2022 7:38 pm

Don't group all Raptors fan in this hater boat. I still believe he will turn it around, it's only one game.

Sent from my ONEPLUS A5000 using RealGM mobile app
Image
User avatar
Edrees
RealGM
Posts: 17,239
And1: 12,463
Joined: May 12, 2009
Contact:
         

Re: Come one, come all! See the marvelous DeMar DeFrozen and his disappearing act! 

Post#129 » by Edrees » Mon Apr 18, 2022 7:52 pm

Not gonna lie, this was one of the few times someone thought they were being cute with the thread title and they actually were. Well done.
User avatar
Tacoma
Head Coach
Posts: 6,404
And1: 5,469
Joined: Dec 08, 2004

Re: Come one, come all! See the marvelous DeMar DeFrozen and his disappearing act! 

Post#130 » by Tacoma » Mon Apr 18, 2022 7:57 pm

Smash3 wrote:
Blazing_royale wrote:
Smash3 wrote:Too many Toronto fans couldn’t wait for this moment to say I told you so. Such a miserable approach to life, DeRozam has made huge strides in his game since his days in Toronto, and it’s been only one game.


When you have Spurs fan saying the same thing, this is not a Raptor thing. DeMar was praised heavily during the regular season when he was killing it so now when he's not performing to the level of expectation you will get called out for. That's just the way it is


The overwhelming majority of posts gleefully criticizing this mans poor performance are made by Raptors fans. It is done in extremely poor taste.


BS. This thread was started by a Bulls fan. I went back to check and the overwhelming majority of Raptors fans were in agreement that his regular season performance are good but he struggles in the playoffs. This is not news and hardly "gleefully criticizing." There are times when some Raptors posters may go overboard, but this is not one of those times.
KembaWalker
RealGM
Posts: 11,955
And1: 13,582
Joined: Dec 22, 2011

Re: Come one, come all! See the marvelous DeMar DeFrozen and his disappearing act! 

Post#131 » by KembaWalker » Mon Apr 18, 2022 8:02 pm

its one thing to celebrate a guy that actively disliked them and their city and immediately bailed over a long term developed guy that gave it all to your franchise and loved the city when he gets you a ring. its awkward but understandable, sure

whats weird is actively hating the other dude for having some minor degree of success somewhere else and tearing him down at every opportunity
User avatar
Vampirate
Lead Assistant
Posts: 5,649
And1: 4,483
Joined: Dec 04, 2016
     

Re: Come one, come all! See the marvelous DeMar DeFrozen and his disappearing act! 

Post#132 » by Vampirate » Mon Apr 18, 2022 8:10 pm

KembaWalker wrote:its one thing to celebrate a guy that actively disliked them and their city and immediately bailed over a long term developed guy that gave it all to your franchise and loved the city when he gets you a ring. its awkward but understandable, sure

whats weird is actively hating the other dude for having some minor degree of success somewhere else and tearing him down at every opportunity


Raptor fans gave him a standing ovation when he was on the spurs in his return game.

Awesome guy.

However, and I really did thought he'd turn things around on the Spurs, we all said 'wait until the playoffs' for a reason. He's already proven himself in the regular season even before he went to the Spurs, not so much in the playoffs.

Also, a lot of non Raptor fans are mocking him so don't just put this all on us.
Image
User avatar
ImSlower
Head Coach
Posts: 6,315
And1: 7,592
Joined: Jan 06, 2011
Location: STL-ish
   

Re: Come one, come all! See the marvelous DeMar DeFrozen and his disappearing act! 

Post#133 » by ImSlower » Mon Apr 18, 2022 8:21 pm

One one hand, I very much disliked how many times DeRozan got the ball to open a possession, immediately put down his absurd blinders to ignore the other four guys on court, and went to work on a long ISO. As much as we all saw his utter mastery of the 20 foot elbow jumper this season, it's gotta be only one of the options of an offense, not the primary one. That said, the team shot less than 20% on 37 freakin' 3pt attempts, so I guess I understand why DDR said "Eff this I can probably just go to work and get us a deuce".

ISO DDR is a fine way to produce points, maybe five or eight possessions a game. Twenty five or so times, like last night, is not the recipe to winning a playoff basketball game.
KembaWalker
RealGM
Posts: 11,955
And1: 13,582
Joined: Dec 22, 2011

Re: Come one, come all! See the marvelous DeMar DeFrozen and his disappearing act! 

Post#134 » by KembaWalker » Mon Apr 18, 2022 8:24 pm

Vampirate wrote:
KembaWalker wrote:its one thing to celebrate a guy that actively disliked them and their city and immediately bailed over a long term developed guy that gave it all to your franchise and loved the city when he gets you a ring. its awkward but understandable, sure

whats weird is actively hating the other dude for having some minor degree of success somewhere else and tearing him down at every opportunity


Raptor fans gave him a standing ovation when he was on the spurs in his return game.

Awesome guy.

However, and I really did thought he'd turn things around on the Spurs, we all said 'wait until the playoffs' for a reason. He's already proven himself in the regular season even before he went to the Spurs, not so much in the playoffs.

Also, a lot of non Raptor fans are mocking him so don't just put this all on us.


yeah but you guys have a currently 4+ page thread on your board just for mocking him. its a bad look
User avatar
Mikistan
RealGM
Posts: 25,789
And1: 38,832
Joined: Jun 30, 2008
Location: Shamblesland
   

Re: Come one, come all! See the marvelous DeMar DeFrozen and his disappearing act! 

Post#135 » by Mikistan » Mon Apr 18, 2022 8:55 pm

KembaWalker wrote:
Vampirate wrote:
KembaWalker wrote:its one thing to celebrate a guy that actively disliked them and their city and immediately bailed over a long term developed guy that gave it all to your franchise and loved the city when he gets you a ring. its awkward but understandable, sure

whats weird is actively hating the other dude for having some minor degree of success somewhere else and tearing him down at every opportunity


Raptor fans gave him a standing ovation when he was on the spurs in his return game.

Awesome guy.

However, and I really did thought he'd turn things around on the Spurs, we all said 'wait until the playoffs' for a reason. He's already proven himself in the regular season even before he went to the Spurs, not so much in the playoffs.

Also, a lot of non Raptor fans are mocking him so don't just put this all on us.


yeah but you guys have a currently 4+ page thread on your board just for mocking him. its a bad look


No you know what is a bad look - being absolutely garbage in the playoffs, not playing defense, not running back on defense because you are complaining to refs, and shooting bad IQ shots
Image
SonicMcMahon
Pro Prospect
Posts: 845
And1: 500
Joined: Feb 05, 2005
Location: Toronto
   

Re: Come one, come all! See the marvelous DeMar DeFrozen and his disappearing act! 

Post#136 » by SonicMcMahon » Mon Apr 18, 2022 9:07 pm

KenoP13 wrote:
vado wrote:
KenoP13 wrote:
Yeah, but Lowry's offense was even worse. Look at the Indiana series in 2015-2016 playoffs. Or the first four games in the Heat series. There is only so much a player can make up in defensive impact when he is shooting 2-11 and putting in 10 points in 40+ minutes played. His assists numbers were pretty awful relative to how much control of the ball he had in most games.

Plus, after his initial struggles in the first round. Derozan put up some pretty good numbers quite a few games. Including in the series against Cavs. The following year he did pretty well against Milwaukee and then Washington in 2017-2018.


You're cherry picking games. We don't get past the Heat in 2016 without Lowry. Lowry was a better all around player than Demar during his time as a Raptor. There are reasons why Demar was getting benched at the end of his Raptors career.


Lowry played awful in three of those games. Including the one that went to OT.

Here are their core statistics for the series:

Lowry PPG 23.4 (fg 38.1%) Reb 5.4 Assist 5.9

Derozan PPG 22.1 (fg 38.1%) Reb 5.6 Assists 2.1

And I could say the exact same thing in the 2016-2017 series against Milwaukee.. Derozan had 3 27+ scoring games and we won 4-2. In one of the games we only scored 92 points and Derozan had 33. We would not have gotten past Milwaukee without his offensive output.


I'm not at all a Derozan hater or getting on this hate bandwagon - if the Bulls own the title and he was Finals MVP I'd be truly thrilled for the man. He's a hard-worker and a good dude by all accounts. And he does continue to build and improve his game: kudos.

And while both he and Lowry share some blame for offensive struggles (or 'choking') in the playoffs especially in the early 2010s... I just can't view them as equal offenders to the raps playoff woes...

Both struggled to score, but Lowry continued to do everything else: manage the game offensively, make the right pass, push the tempo at opportune times, get hot-hands going, dive for loose balls, take charges, make buckets when the offense was ice cold and direct the defense. (Among other less tangible things). Meanwhile, when Demar wasn't scoring, he did little else and he even took the rest of the offense out of is flow. He was often a net negative out there and it impacted team morale too.

I look at it this way, (via an albeit subjective measure): You were sometimes disappointed in Kyle's scoring, for sure. But when he was on the bench in a big game, you were begging for the team to hold it together til he got back in: "Get Kyle in! We're lost without him." With Demar, there were times you were skeptical whether he should even get those important mintues at times.
phanman
General Manager
Posts: 8,530
And1: 9,190
Joined: Mar 18, 2016
 

Re: Come one, come all! See the marvelous DeMar DeFrozen and his disappearing act! 

Post#137 » by phanman » Mon Apr 18, 2022 9:23 pm

Its been one friggin game, come on man guys, be better. Did he play well? - No but the rest of the team didn't either: In case some of you guys just glossed over it, Vuc went 9/27 for his 24pts and Zach went 6/19 for his 18. I mean the team collectively shot 7/37 from deep allowing the team to collapse and double DeMar even more frequently than in the regular season.

All that said, they still had a chance to pull out a road victory, despite having absolutely no answers to the 6'11 Greek Freak. Caruso cut it to 1 pt with 1:36 remaining and each of the big 3 missed shots to pull out a win in the last 5 possessions of the game (0/2 Vuc, 0/1 DeMar, 0/2 Lavine)

Honestly some of you guys just seem like bitter ex-girlfriends waiting for the chance to pounce. DeMar played poorly, but he wasn't the sole reason they lost man. They are the definition of over-matched and even though they've had plenty of time to adjust without Zo(out since January), you can tell that he's the missing piece on both ends of the floor for them. Especially offensively where not only spaces the floor but alleviates a ton of the play-making duties from DeMar who is essentially the team's PG/primary playmaker.
pipfan
RealGM
Posts: 12,449
And1: 4,304
Joined: Aug 07, 2010

Re: Come one, come all! See the marvelous DeMar DeFrozen and his disappearing act! 

Post#138 » by pipfan » Mon Apr 18, 2022 9:32 pm

He had a GREAT year, but yesterday he was bad. It happens. Let's hope he bounces back. Ironically, the only good thing he really did yesterday was his defense was fine-not outstanding but he played D. He was really bad on D in the 2nd half (like the rest of the team) of the season
vado
Analyst
Posts: 3,165
And1: 2,258
Joined: Jul 29, 2006
       

Re: Come one, come all! See the marvelous DeMar DeFrozen and his disappearing act! 

Post#139 » by vado » Mon Apr 18, 2022 10:26 pm

SonicMcMahon wrote:
KenoP13 wrote:
vado wrote:
You're cherry picking games. We don't get past the Heat in 2016 without Lowry. Lowry was a better all around player than Demar during his time as a Raptor. There are reasons why Demar was getting benched at the end of his Raptors career.


Lowry played awful in three of those games. Including the one that went to OT.

Here are their core statistics for the series:

Lowry PPG 23.4 (fg 38.1%) Reb 5.4 Assist 5.9

Derozan PPG 22.1 (fg 38.1%) Reb 5.6 Assists 2.1

And I could say the exact same thing in the 2016-2017 series against Milwaukee.. Derozan had 3 27+ scoring games and we won 4-2. In one of the games we only scored 92 points and Derozan had 33. We would not have gotten past Milwaukee without his offensive output.


I'm not at all a Derozan hater or getting on this hate bandwagon - if the Bulls own the title and he was Finals MVP I'd be truly thrilled for the man. He's a hard-worker and a good dude by all accounts. And he does continue to build and improve his game: kudos.

And while both he and Lowry share some blame for offensive struggles (or 'choking') in the playoffs especially in the early 2010s... I just can't view them as equal offenders to the raps playoff woes...

Both struggled to score, but Lowry continued to do everything else: manage the game offensively, make the right pass, push the tempo at opportune times, get hot-hands going, dive for loose balls, take charges, make buckets when the offense was ice cold and direct the defense. (Among other less tangible things). Meanwhile, when Demar wasn't scoring, he did little else and he even took the rest of the offense out of is flow. He was often a net negative out there and it impacted team morale too.

I look at it this way, (via an albeit subjective measure): You were sometimes disappointed in Kyle's scoring, for sure. But when he was on the bench in a big game, you were begging for the team to hold it together til he got back in: "Get Kyle in! We're lost without him." With Demar, there were times you were skeptical whether he should even get those important mintues at times.


Exactly I found myself both cheering and cringing for the Bulls yesterday. I want to see DeRozan put his improved passing on display, that's something he didn't have in Toronto. I thought he set up Vucevic well a few times but he didn't make the shot. Vucevic looked as if he was going to break through that wall but his shots were in and out.
User avatar
Nate505
RealGM
Posts: 13,757
And1: 13,574
Joined: Oct 29, 2001
Location: Denver, CO
       

Re: Come one, come all! See the marvelous DeMar DeFrozen and his disappearing act! 

Post#140 » by Nate505 » Mon Apr 18, 2022 10:29 pm

Edrees wrote:Not gonna lie, this was one of the few times someone thought they were being cute with the thread title and they actually were. Well done.

For sure. It's so childish and stupid, yet I can't help laughing either.

Like how have I never heard "Demar DeFrozen" before?

Return to The General Board