is kobe bryant a top 10 offensive player ever?

[70sFan]

Why don't you like James and Jordan?

I don't find their game aestically pleasing and their fans irritate me a lot.

ohh, i thought you disliked their personalities rather than their fans/playstyle

I appreciate their skills of course, but I don't find their archetypes very exciting. Of course relative to other all-time great players, compared to average ones he's amazing.

[feyki]

Not even close. Arguably top 25, at the best.

Edit: 12 and 13 Lebron combined in the playoffs was 28/6 with 117 offensive rating and 08 and 09 Kobe was 30/5,5 with 115 offensive rating. I have 12 and 13 Lebron in my top 20 offensive peaks, Kobe was a bit worse, then he's around 25.

we generally only include players one time

is rare to make a peak list where different stretches of the same player count

I have no problem with either way. Just see 08 and 09 Kobe very close and also 12 and 13 Lebron. 13 Lebron just was bit more efficient version of the 2012.

[Texas Chuck]

I don't like James or Jordan at all, but I accept they are better players than Duncan.

Why don't you like James and Jordan?

I don't find their game aestically pleasing and their fans irritate me a lot.

I'm similar in that other than as a kid really falling in love with NBA basketball for the first time and loving Nique(yeah it was all about the dunks lol) I've never been a fan of the iso wing superstars. I think I gravitated to Nique in a direct response to the Jordan hype. But luckily the Jordan attention led me to find Pippen, a guy whose game inspired my own and still feels like an archetype of great value(obviously he'd have to be a better 3-pt shooter today).

I try and not let the stans get to me. And honestly I'm much more turned off by the player haters than the guy who is just a huge fan of somebody and no ability to be objective at all.

[falcolombardi]

Why don't you like James and Jordan?

I don't find their game aestically pleasing and their fans irritate me a lot.

I'm similar in that other than as a kid really falling in love with NBA basketball for the first time and loving Nique(yeah it was all about the dunks lol) I've never been a fan of the iso wing superstars. I think I gravitated to Nique in a direct response to the Jordan hype. But luckily the Jordan attention led me to find Pippen, a guy whose game inspired my own and still feels like an archetype of great value(obviously he'd have to be a better 3-pt shooter today).

I try and not let the stans get to me. And honestly I'm much more turned off by the player haters than the guy who is just a huge fan of somebody and no ability to be objective at all.

this is a bit surprising since i thought you were really high on lebron and luka

or do you differentiate point forward playmaker/scorers from more score first wings like jordan and kobe?

[Texas Chuck]

this is a bit surprising since i thought you were really high on lebron and luka

or do you differentiate point forward playmaker/scorers from more score first wings like jordan and kobe?

I'm really high on Lebron's value as a player. As a longstanding Russell is GOAT guy, I've finally conceded Lebron has had the best NBA career of anyone ever. But I'm not really a fan of his. Just recognize his greatness.

I'm naturally a fan of Luka as I'm a diehard Mavs fan, but I think I'm probably about in the middle of the pack on him as a player? Obviously there is a bunch to like, but also he still has a lot of areas he needs to improve to really enter the discussion with the very best players in the league. I think he's a clear notch below the current big 3(Giannis, Jokic, Embiid) and probably still behind Curry and KD and a healthy Kawhi. So a clear top 10 player, probably has done enough to earn another 1st team all-NBA spot, but not an MVP level guy as of yet.

And frankly he's probably my 4th favorite Mav(Doe Doe and Maxi my clear favs followed by Brunson.) He's no Dirk for me in terms of how much I enjoy watching him play.


And finally to actually try and answer your question more directly, sorry --- yes their playmaking chops separate them out for me. Obviously Mike created a lot for teammates and Kobe too, but that was much more an offshoot of their scoring game creating opportunities due to attention they draw. Lebron and Luka can create scoring opportunities out of whole cloth with their spectacular vision(and size and strength to make every pass).

And I recognize the value of the iso wing. I'm just not a fan of that style so much. Other than my boy Dirk who is a special case, I'm mostly drawn to versatile defensive players. And yes, I'm sure that's because back when I was playing competitive basketball that's who I was. I was a guy who had to get minutes by working harder than everyone else and understanding the game better than everyone else. I was the worst athlete on basically every team I played out and frequently the least skilled offensive player. So I appreciate those guys who do all the dirty work stuff more than the guy who is the best athlete and has a bunch of skill and just overwhelms on talent alone.

[tsherkin]

And finally to actually try and answer your question more directly, sorry --- yes their playmaking chops separate them out for me. Obviously Mike created a lot for teammates and Kobe too, but that was much more an offshoot of their scoring game creating opportunities due to attention they draw. Lebron and Luka can create scoring opportunities out of whole cloth with their spectacular vision(and size and strength to make every pass).

I dunno. Watching some of his seasons in the 80s, and his transition passing all through his career, I think he regularly demonstrates great vision but elected to trust in his own scoring more than volume playmaking. I think that's a mentality difference instead of a vision difference (IMHO), you know? MJ made lots of sweet passes. Not quite Magic/Bird-ish but he made some beauts on the regular. Obviously, Lebron's larger and has spent more seasons milking the PnR and stuff, but I think MJ's passing gets less pub sometimes than maybe it should.

[Texas Chuck]

And finally to actually try and answer your question more directly, sorry --- yes their playmaking chops separate them out for me. Obviously Mike created a lot for teammates and Kobe too, but that was much more an offshoot of their scoring game creating opportunities due to attention they draw. Lebron and Luka can create scoring opportunities out of whole cloth with their spectacular vision(and size and strength to make every pass).

I dunno. Watching some of his seasons in the 80s, and his transition passing all through his career, I think he regularly demonstrates great vision but elected to trust in his own scoring more than volume playmaking. I think that's a mentality difference instead of a vision difference (IMHO), you know? MJ made lots of sweet passes. Not quite Magic/Bird-ish but he made some beauts on the regular. Obviously, Lebron's larger and has spent more seasons milking the PnR and stuff, but I think MJ's passing gets less pub sometimes than maybe it should.

Saying Mike isn't a passer on the level of Lebron or Luka isn't remotely a criticism of his passing. And certainly no aspect of Michael Jordan's game gets less attention or credit than it warrants.

[Joao Saraiva]

I have Kobe Bryant in my top 10 list all time... and even tough he was a good defender for a big portion of his career, I don't think his biggest case for top 10 all time starts there.

Kobe was a fantastic scorer. He could definitely get a ton of points even on bad shot selection. Have people ever wondered how skilled he had to be to do that?

Now you can say his ts% is not that high. I'll give you that, it came with his poor shot selection. But it's still good taking that into consideration. But you also have to consider that his TOV% was actually low. So while he was not very efficient, I wouldn't say he was as inefficient as his ts% suggests (in comparison with other all time greats).

Plus from the top 10 all time players I have Bill Russell and Tim Duncan - and taking away defense they're definitely out of that top 10.

[MyUniBroDavis]

Not even close. Arguably top 25, at the best.

Edit: 12 and 13 Lebron combined in the playoffs was 28/6 with 117 offensive rating and 08 and 09 Kobe was 30/5,5 with 115 offensive rating. I have 12 and 13 Lebron in my top 20 offensive peaks, Kobe was a bit worse, then he's around 25.

I mean i think he meant one per year but how is 2013 bron barely top 20 range lol

[falcolombardi]

And finally to actually try and answer your question more directly, sorry --- yes their playmaking chops separate them out for me. Obviously Mike created a lot for teammates and Kobe too, but that was much more an offshoot of their scoring game creating opportunities due to attention they draw. Lebron and Luka can create scoring opportunities out of whole cloth with their spectacular vision(and size and strength to make every pass).

I dunno. Watching some of his seasons in the 80s, and his transition passing all through his career, I think he regularly demonstrates great vision but elected to trust in his own scoring more than volume playmaking. I think that's a mentality difference instead of a vision difference (IMHO), you know? MJ made lots of sweet passes. Not quite Magic/Bird-ish but he made some beauts on the regular. Obviously, Lebron's larger and has spent more seasons milking the PnR and stuff, but I think MJ's passing gets less pub sometimes than maybe it should.

Saying Mike isn't a passer on the level of Lebron or Luka isn't remotely a criticism of his passing. And certainly no aspect of Michael Jordan's game gets less attention or credit than it warrants.

relatively speaking his offensive rebounding may be underrated?

[Pelly24]

Kobe is probably top 10 for me. He never had one of those all-time great efficiency years, but he was always good for high volume and 2-4% TS% and it translated to the playoffs. He could play on or off ball so i think he was super-scalable. He's just better than Harden was. Way more flexible because of his athleticism. He could just put himself in positions to score more easily than peak harden who was way more binary. Probably over Barkley because he could score more uphill because of his goat shot-creating ability.

[SNPA]

Offensive player and scorer are different. 70sfan’s list one page one is short for offensive player. There’s an argument for Nash over Kobe as offensive player.