NBA Superstars Playoffs Production Based On Quality Of Opposition

[ty 4191]

LeBron James:

(Regular Season): 38.2 MPG, 27.1 PPG, 7.4 RBS, 7.4 AST, .505 FG%, (+4.4 rTS%)

Against Bad Teams: (0% of playoff games): ---
Against Average Teams: (33.4% of playoff games): 42.3 MPG, 27.8 PPG, 8.7 RBS, 6.4 AST, (+5.4 rTS%)
Against Good Teams: (23.7% of playoff games): 39.4 MPG, 30.7 PPG, 9.4 RBS, 8.6 AST, (+8.1 rTS%)
Against Elite Teams: (22.6% of playoff games): 40.1 MPG, 28.0 PPG, 9.3 RBS, 7.1 AST, (+3.8 rTS%)
Against All Time Great Teams: (21% of playoff games): 43.5 MPG, 28.5 PPG, 8.4 RBS, 7.2 AST, (+1.4 tTS%)

[feyki]

wouldbt it be better to base it on opposite team defense rather than their overall net rating?

the 2005 suns would be elite competition but not exactly a tough defense

a elite team may be 2005 suns or 2004 pistons and one is a lot tougher than the other offensive performance wise

Memphis were 2nd best defence in the league and Suns were 16th best, but Dirk played much better against Memhpis(higher volume on %10 higher efficiency).

As to be competitive, team strenghts really important and could figure out about the player performances how good he was relative to the defence he faced.

LeBron James:

(Regular Season): 38.2 MPG, 27.1 PPG, 7.4 RBS, 7.4 AST, .505 FG%, (+4.4 rTS%)

Against Bad Teams: (0% of playoff games): ---
Against Average Teams: (33.4% of playoff games): 42.3 MPG, 27.8 PPG, 8.7 RBS, 6.4 AST, (+5.4 rTS%)
Against Good Teams: (23.7% of playoff games): 39.4 MPG, 30.7 PPG, 9.4 RBS, 8.6 AST, (+8.1 rTS%)
Against Elite Teams: (22.6% of playoff games): 40.1 MPG, 28.0 PPG, 9.3 RBS, 7.1 AST, (+3.8 rTS%)
Against All Time Great Teams: (21% of playoff games): 43.5 MPG, 28.5 PPG, 8.4 RBS, 7.2 AST, (+1.4 tTS%)

This is probably why I have Prime Lebron in my top 10 at best and people have him at the top. They overlook and fine with cumulative total line.

Lebron against less than 4 SRS teams - 29 PPG, 7,3 APG, +6,5 rTS,
Lebron against better than 4 SRS teams - 28,2 PPG, 7,15 APG, +2,65 rTS
. Probably there's 2-3 PIPM, 6-7 WS difference between the two.

[falcolombardi]

wouldbt it be better to base it on opposite team defense rather than their overall net rating?

the 2005 suns would be elite competition but not exactly a tough defense

a elite team may be 2005 suns or 2004 pistons and one is a lot tougher than the other offensive performance wise

Memphis were 2nd best defence in the league and Suns were 16th best, but Dirk played much better against Memhpis(higher volume on %10 higher efficiency).

As to be competitive, team strenghts really important and could figure out about the player performances how good he was relative to the defence he faced.

LeBron James:

(Regular Season): 38.2 MPG, 27.1 PPG, 7.4 RBS, 7.4 AST, .505 FG%, (+4.4 rTS%)

Against Bad Teams: (0% of playoff games): ---
Against Average Teams: (33.4% of playoff games): 42.3 MPG, 27.8 PPG, 8.7 RBS, 6.4 AST, (+5.4 rTS%)
Against Good Teams: (23.7% of playoff games): 39.4 MPG, 30.7 PPG, 9.4 RBS, 8.6 AST, (+8.1 rTS%)
Against Elite Teams: (22.6% of playoff games): 40.1 MPG, 28.0 PPG, 9.3 RBS, 7.1 AST, (+3.8 rTS%)
Against All Time Great Teams: (21% of playoff games): 43.5 MPG, 28.5 PPG, 8.4 RBS, 7.2 AST, (+1.4 tTS%)

This is probably why I have Prime Lebron in my top 10 at best and people have him at the top. They overlook and fine with cumulative total line.

Lebron against less than 4 SRS teams - 29 PPG, 7,3 APG, +6,5 rTS,
Lebron against better than 4 SRS teams - 28,2 PPG, 7,15 APG, +2,65 rTS
. Probably there's 2-3 PIPM, 6-7 WS difference between the two.

hard disagree, lebron average defensw faced was a lot tougher than most and his performance agains elite defenses was fantastic

his numbers against elite defenses and number of elite defenses faced beats most all time greats

to copy and paste homecourtloss work

"Through 2018, 47% of LeBron’s playoff series were played against top 5-top 6 basically tied for top 5 defenses; LeBron played against 6 of the top 30 [4-2] and 7 of the top 35 defenses [4-3] in NBA history (rDRtg) which is ludicrous considering the events that have to happen for that to happen"

2008 Celtics, -8.6 rDRtg: -6.0 rTS%, -7.3% reFG% to what Celtics allowed
2014 Pacers, -7.4 rDRtg: +9.6 rTS%, +13.1 reFG%
2011 Celtics, -7.0 rDRtg: +1.2 rTS%, +5.0 reFG%
2011 Bulls, -7.0 rDRtg: +4.6% rTS%, +.7 reFG%
2007 Spurs, -6.6 rDRtg: -11.3% rTS%, -9.3 reFG%
2012 Celtics, -6.4 rDRtg: +6.0 rTS%, +10.3 reFG%
2009 Magic, -6.4 rDRtg: +4.7% rTS%, +5.8 reFG%
2013 Pacers,-6.1 rDRtg: +7.4 rTS%, +11.0 reFG%
2016 Hawks, -5.0 rDRtg: +3.2 rTS%, +8.0 reFG%
2017 Warriors, -4.8 rDRtg: +7.8 rTS%, +12.9 reFG%
2018 Celtics, -4.7 rDRtg: +5.4 rTS%, +8.4 reFG%
2014 Spurs, -4.3 rDRtg: +13.8 rTS%, +16.6 reFG%
2013 Spurs, -4.3 rDRtg: -.6 rTS%, + .7 reFG%
2015 Warriors, -4.2 rDRtg: -5.7 rTS%, -3.9 reFG%
2010 Celtics, -3.8 rDRtg: +1.3 rTS%, -.9 reFG%
2012 Knicks, -3.6 rDRtg: +7.0 rTS%, +3.2 reFG%
2006 Pistons, -3.1 rDRtg: -2.0 rTS%, -.9 reFG%
2014 Bobcats, -2.9 rDRtg: +13.0 rTS%, +11.6 reFG%
2018 Raptors, -2.7 rDRtg: +2.7 rTS%, +6.7 reFG%
2013 Bulls, -2.7 rDRtg: +3.8 rTS%, -.2 reFG%
2016 Warriors, -2.6 rDRtg: +2.1 rTS%, +5.4 reFG%

+4.6 relative efg%, +3.2 relative ts% vs these defenses

lebron faced better defenses than offenses in average and did fairly well overall vs them even including his pre prime years (like those struggling pre prime series agains 07 spurs or 08 celtics, modern atg defenses)

[feyki]

wouldbt it be better to base it on opposite team defense rather than their overall net rating?

the 2005 suns would be elite competition but not exactly a tough defense

a elite team may be 2005 suns or 2004 pistons and one is a lot tougher than the other offensive performance wise

Memphis were 2nd best defence in the league and Suns were 16th best, but Dirk played much better against Memhpis(higher volume on %10 higher efficiency).

As to be competitive, team strenghts really important and could figure out about the player performances how good he was relative to the defence he faced.

LeBron James:

(Regular Season): 38.2 MPG, 27.1 PPG, 7.4 RBS, 7.4 AST, .505 FG%, (+4.4 rTS%)

Against Bad Teams: (0% of playoff games): ---
Against Average Teams: (33.4% of playoff games): 42.3 MPG, 27.8 PPG, 8.7 RBS, 6.4 AST, (+5.4 rTS%)
Against Good Teams: (23.7% of playoff games): 39.4 MPG, 30.7 PPG, 9.4 RBS, 8.6 AST, (+8.1 rTS%)
Against Elite Teams: (22.6% of playoff games): 40.1 MPG, 28.0 PPG, 9.3 RBS, 7.1 AST, (+3.8 rTS%)
Against All Time Great Teams: (21% of playoff games): 43.5 MPG, 28.5 PPG, 8.4 RBS, 7.2 AST, (+1.4 tTS%)

This is probably why I have Prime Lebron in my top 10 at best and people have him at the top. They overlook and fine with cumulative total line.

Lebron against less than 4 SRS teams - 29 PPG, 7,3 APG, +6,5 rTS,
Lebron against better than 4 SRS teams - 28,2 PPG, 7,15 APG, +2,65 rTS
. Probably there's 2-3 PIPM, 6-7 WS difference between the two.

hard disagree, lebron average defensw faced was a lot tougher than most and his performance agains elite defenses was fantastic

his numbers against elite defenses and number of elite defenses faced beats most all time greats

to copy and paste homecourtloss work

"Through 2018, 47% of LeBron’s playoff series were played against top 5-top 6 basically tied for top 5 defenses; LeBron played against 6 of the top 30 [4-2] and 7 of the top 35 defenses [4-3] in NBA history (rDRtg) which is ludicrous considering the events that have to happen for that to happen"

2008 Celtics, -8.6 rDRtg: -6.0 rTS%, -7.3% reFG% to what Celtics allowed
2014 Pacers, -7.4 rDRtg: +9.6 rTS%, +13.1 reFG%
2011 Celtics, -7.0 rDRtg: +1.2 rTS%, +5.0 reFG%
2011 Bulls, -7.0 rDRtg: +4.6% rTS%, +.7 reFG%
2007 Spurs, -6.6 rDRtg: -11.3% rTS%, -9.3 reFG%
2012 Celtics, -6.4 rDRtg: +6.0 rTS%, +10.3 reFG%
2009 Magic, -6.4 rDRtg: +4.7% rTS%, +5.8 reFG%
2013 Pacers,-6.1 rDRtg: +7.4 rTS%, +11.0 reFG%
2016 Hawks, -5.0 rDRtg: +3.2 rTS%, +8.0 reFG%
2017 Warriors, -4.8 rDRtg: +7.8 rTS%, +12.9 reFG%
2018 Celtics, -4.7 rDRtg: +5.4 rTS%, +8.4 reFG%
2014 Spurs, -4.3 rDRtg: +13.8 rTS%, +16.6 reFG%
2013 Spurs, -4.3 rDRtg: -.6 rTS%, + .7 reFG%
2015 Warriors, -4.2 rDRtg: -5.7 rTS%, -3.9 reFG%
2010 Celtics, -3.8 rDRtg: +1.3 rTS%, -.9 reFG%
2012 Knicks, -3.6 rDRtg: +7.0 rTS%, +3.2 reFG%
2006 Pistons, -3.1 rDRtg: -2.0 rTS%, -.9 reFG%
2014 Bobcats, -2.9 rDRtg: +13.0 rTS%, +11.6 reFG%
2018 Raptors, -2.7 rDRtg: +2.7 rTS%, +6.7 reFG%
2013 Bulls, -2.7 rDRtg: +3.8 rTS%, -.2 reFG%
2016 Warriors, -2.6 rDRtg: +2.1 rTS%, +5.4 reFG%

+4.6 relative efg%, +3.2 relative ts% vs these defenses

lebron faced better defenses than offenses in average and did fairly well overall vs them even including his pre prime years (like those struggling pre prime series agains 07 spurs or 08 celtics, modern atg defenses)

Seems more of an agree to me, 3,2 is quite close to 2,7.

[falcolombardi]

Memphis were 2nd best defence in the league and Suns were 16th best, but Dirk played much better against Memhpis(higher volume on %10 higher efficiency).

As to be competitive, team strenghts really important and could figure out about the player performances how good he was relative to the defence he faced.



This is probably why I have Prime Lebron in my top 10 at best and people have him at the top. They overlook and fine with cumulative total line.

Lebron against less than 4 SRS teams - 29 PPG, 7,3 APG, +6,5 rTS,
Lebron against better than 4 SRS teams - 28,2 PPG, 7,15 APG, +2,65 rTS
. Probably there's 2-3 PIPM, 6-7 WS difference between the two.

hard disagree, lebron average defensw faced was a lot tougher than most and his performance agains elite defenses was fantastic

his numbers against elite defenses and number of elite defenses faced beats most all time greats

to copy and paste homecourtloss work

"Through 2018, 47% of LeBron’s playoff series were played against top 5-top 6 basically tied for top 5 defenses; LeBron played against 6 of the top 30 [4-2] and 7 of the top 35 defenses [4-3] in NBA history (rDRtg) which is ludicrous considering the events that have to happen for that to happen"

2008 Celtics, -8.6 rDRtg: -6.0 rTS%, -7.3% reFG% to what Celtics allowed
2014 Pacers, -7.4 rDRtg: +9.6 rTS%, +13.1 reFG%
2011 Celtics, -7.0 rDRtg: +1.2 rTS%, +5.0 reFG%
2011 Bulls, -7.0 rDRtg: +4.6% rTS%, +.7 reFG%
2007 Spurs, -6.6 rDRtg: -11.3% rTS%, -9.3 reFG%
2012 Celtics, -6.4 rDRtg: +6.0 rTS%, +10.3 reFG%
2009 Magic, -6.4 rDRtg: +4.7% rTS%, +5.8 reFG%
2013 Pacers,-6.1 rDRtg: +7.4 rTS%, +11.0 reFG%
2016 Hawks, -5.0 rDRtg: +3.2 rTS%, +8.0 reFG%
2017 Warriors, -4.8 rDRtg: +7.8 rTS%, +12.9 reFG%
2018 Celtics, -4.7 rDRtg: +5.4 rTS%, +8.4 reFG%
2014 Spurs, -4.3 rDRtg: +13.8 rTS%, +16.6 reFG%
2013 Spurs, -4.3 rDRtg: -.6 rTS%, + .7 reFG%
2015 Warriors, -4.2 rDRtg: -5.7 rTS%, -3.9 reFG%
2010 Celtics, -3.8 rDRtg: +1.3 rTS%, -.9 reFG%
2012 Knicks, -3.6 rDRtg: +7.0 rTS%, +3.2 reFG%
2006 Pistons, -3.1 rDRtg: -2.0 rTS%, -.9 reFG%
2014 Bobcats, -2.9 rDRtg: +13.0 rTS%, +11.6 reFG%
2018 Raptors, -2.7 rDRtg: +2.7 rTS%, +6.7 reFG%
2013 Bulls, -2.7 rDRtg: +3.8 rTS%, -.2 reFG%
2016 Warriors, -2.6 rDRtg: +2.1 rTS%, +5.4 reFG%

+4.6 relative efg%, +3.2 relative ts% vs these defenses

lebron faced better defenses than offenses in average and did fairly well overall vs them even including his pre prime years (like those struggling pre prime series agains 07 spurs or 08 celtics, modern atg defenses)

Seems more of an agree to me, 3,2 is quite close to 2,7.

against that caliber of defense + 3,2 is quite good when considering the volume and playmaking load

not to make this thread into basketball godwins law but just for reference

jordan against defenses better than -2.5 had a +2.5 relative true shooting

[feyki]

hard disagree, lebron average defensw faced was a lot tougher than most and his performance agains elite defenses was fantastic

his numbers against elite defenses and number of elite defenses faced beats most all time greats

to copy and paste homecourtloss work

"Through 2018, 47% of LeBron’s playoff series were played against top 5-top 6 basically tied for top 5 defenses; LeBron played against 6 of the top 30 [4-2] and 7 of the top 35 defenses [4-3] in NBA history (rDRtg) which is ludicrous considering the events that have to happen for that to happen"

2008 Celtics, -8.6 rDRtg: -6.0 rTS%, -7.3% reFG% to what Celtics allowed
2014 Pacers, -7.4 rDRtg: +9.6 rTS%, +13.1 reFG%
2011 Celtics, -7.0 rDRtg: +1.2 rTS%, +5.0 reFG%
2011 Bulls, -7.0 rDRtg: +4.6% rTS%, +.7 reFG%
2007 Spurs, -6.6 rDRtg: -11.3% rTS%, -9.3 reFG%
2012 Celtics, -6.4 rDRtg: +6.0 rTS%, +10.3 reFG%
2009 Magic, -6.4 rDRtg: +4.7% rTS%, +5.8 reFG%
2013 Pacers,-6.1 rDRtg: +7.4 rTS%, +11.0 reFG%
2016 Hawks, -5.0 rDRtg: +3.2 rTS%, +8.0 reFG%
2017 Warriors, -4.8 rDRtg: +7.8 rTS%, +12.9 reFG%
2018 Celtics, -4.7 rDRtg: +5.4 rTS%, +8.4 reFG%
2014 Spurs, -4.3 rDRtg: +13.8 rTS%, +16.6 reFG%
2013 Spurs, -4.3 rDRtg: -.6 rTS%, + .7 reFG%
2015 Warriors, -4.2 rDRtg: -5.7 rTS%, -3.9 reFG%
2010 Celtics, -3.8 rDRtg: +1.3 rTS%, -.9 reFG%
2012 Knicks, -3.6 rDRtg: +7.0 rTS%, +3.2 reFG%
2006 Pistons, -3.1 rDRtg: -2.0 rTS%, -.9 reFG%
2014 Bobcats, -2.9 rDRtg: +13.0 rTS%, +11.6 reFG%
2018 Raptors, -2.7 rDRtg: +2.7 rTS%, +6.7 reFG%
2013 Bulls, -2.7 rDRtg: +3.8 rTS%, -.2 reFG%
2016 Warriors, -2.6 rDRtg: +2.1 rTS%, +5.4 reFG%

+4.6 relative efg%, +3.2 relative ts% vs these defenses

lebron faced better defenses than offenses in average and did fairly well overall vs them even including his pre prime years (like those struggling pre prime series agains 07 spurs or 08 celtics, modern atg defenses)

Seems more of an agree to me, 3,2 is quite close to 2,7.

against that caliber of defense + 3,2 is quite good when considering the volume and playmaking load

not to make this thread into basketball godwins law but just for reference

jordan against defenses better than -2.5 had a +2.5 relative true shooting

My arguement on Lebron also valid for Jordan. People think Jordan and Lebron +6/7 rTS players, it's just wrong.

[falcolombardi]

Seems more of an agree to me, 3,2 is quite close to 2,7.

against that caliber of defense + 3,2 is quite good when considering the volume and playmaking load

not to make this thread into basketball godwins law but just for reference

jordan against defenses better than -2.5 had a +2.5 relative true shooting

My arguement on Lebron also valid for Jordan. People think Jordan and Lebron +6/7 rTS players, it's just wrong.

i would be really surprised if there are more than a handful of guys with better efficiency on high volume against elite defenses

i expect most all time great scorers have mediocre efficiency against great defenses focusing on them

[feyki]

against that caliber of defense + 3,2 is quite good when considering the volume and playmaking load

not to make this thread into basketball godwins law but just for reference

jordan against defenses better than -2.5 had a +2.5 relative true shooting

My arguement on Lebron also valid for Jordan. People think Jordan and Lebron +6/7 rTS players, it's just wrong.

i would be really surprised if there are more than a handful of guys with better efficiency on high volume against elite defenses

i expect most all time great scorers have mediocre efficiency against great defenses focusing on them

+2-3 just above average level,though. Probably there are lots of legends have more than that.

[ty 4191]

Moved to first post of this thread. So it doesn't get lost in conversation.

[falcolombardi]

What do people think about Wilt, Russell, Kareem?

Wilt: 46.2% of games vs. Elite plus All Time Great teams: 47.2 MPG, 26.7 PPG, 24.3 RBS, 3.4 AST, +2.8 rTS

Russell: 26% of games vs. Elite plus ATG teams: 46.2 MPG, 15.9 PPG, 24.8 RBS, 4.7 AST, -0.4 rTS%.

Kareem: 27.1% of games vs. Elite plus ATG teams: 39.4 MPG, 27.1 PPG, 12.4 RBS, 3.3 AST, +4.7 tTS%.

And, arguably, the two greatest "modern" players. What do people make of this?

Jordan: 60.9% of games vs. Elite plus ATG teams: 41.9 MPG, 34.1 PPG, 6.6 RBS, 5.8 AST, +3.6 rTS%.

LeBron: 43.6% of games vs. Elite plus ATG: 41.8 MPG, 28.2 PPG, 8.9 RBS, 7.2 AST, +2.6 tTS%.

Also, who else would be be interested in seeing? I'll take the time to run all the numbers for everyone.

the contrat in lebron and jordan efficiency between "against elite teams" and "against elite defenses" is notable

lebron faced a lot of not great teams that happened to be great defenses with meh offenses

durant, curry and harden?

[ty 4191]

I'm glad you made these calculations, it requires quite a lot of work (I know it from my own experience).

I'm glad, too. It was a TON of work. As you know.

Now that you see exactly the caliber of who Wilt played, and Kareem played, overall, how does this change your perception of both of them, and rankings of them, if at all?

What do you think of all the results presented thus far? And who else would you like to see?

[ty 4191]

the contrat in lebron and jordan efficiency between "against elite teams" and "against elite defenses" is notable

lebron faced a lot of not great teams that happened to be great defenses with meh offenses

durant, curry and harden?

Lebron faced a TON of great teams. Remember, this is Net Rating, not just defense.

I will run numbers for Curry for you.

[ty 4191]

I'm going to run both Bird and Magic. It'll take quite awhile, but, it'll be worth it. And, I think, prove a point I've always tried to make about the West and East in the 1980's and early 90's.

Amazing article apropos of that, here:

What If the Celtics and Lakers had switched conferences in the 1980’s?

https://www.celticsblog.com/2020/5/17/21258281/what-if-the-celtics-and-lakers-had-switched-conferences-in-the-1980s

[ty 4191]

I added Larry Legend, and, I also computed performance against only the very best playoff teams.

It's all in the very first post of this discussion.

Magic is up next.

[ty 4191]

Russell's numbers look worse only because he didn't have to face himself and Wilt did. I wouldn't use that to suggest Wilt was a better playoff performer than Russell.

I certainly would. He had to face a Dynasty for 10 years. Russell never had to face the best team in the league.

Especially when Russell's 11 rings are about the best possible proof for just how great a playoff performer he was.

That's because he had Hall Of Famers (literally) coming off the bench in the 60's, and had the majority of the best players in the whole league playing with him the entire time. Compared to Wilt, who had 3 coaches that coached either 1 or 2 years in the NBA and were fired or resigned right away, and, had terrible teammates (overall, especially compared to Russell) until 1966-1967.

That's most of the reason why he has 11 rings and Wilt has 2.

[falcolombardi]

I'm going to run both Bird and Magic. It'll take quite awhile, but, it'll be worth it. And, I think, prove a point I've always tried to make about the West and East in the 1980's and early 90's.

Amazing article apropos of that, here:

What If the Celtics and Lakers had switched conferences in the 1980’s?

https://www.celticsblog.com/2020/5/17/21258281/what-if-the-celtics-and-lakers-had-switched-conferences-in-the-1980s

When the NBA suspiciously moved Milwaukee from the West where they had been ensconced since entering the league as an expansion team in 1968, to the East, the balance of power shifted dramatically. One can’t help but think that the league wanted to make sure its lone tradition-rich, major market, ratings-friendly and telegenic franchise in the wild weak west would get to the Finals.

Otherwise, why mess up the balance of power by shifting a team not even in the east geographically to the Eastern Conference?

is it bad thty the article made me laugh lol

seemed that by 1988 much of the public and the NBA officials/powers-that-be were ready for another team besides Boston to represent the East, and consciously or not, they allowed the opposition to get away with fouling in order to help make this happen

yes, the league totally hated the idea of another bird vs magic finals, they prefered to see detroit

Had the teams switched conferences, from 1980-88 Boston could well have projected to probably win 63-64 games a season and as many as six championships due to an easier, less taxing road to the Finals. Meanwhile, LA might have dropped to 56-57 victories a year in the East and won only two titles at most.

this is straight out of bill simmons lol

[70sFan]

I'm glad you made these calculations, it requires quite a lot of work (I know it from my own experience).

I'm glad, too. It was a TON of work. As you know.

Now that you see exactly the caliber of who Wilt played, and Kareem played, overall, how does this change your perception of both of them, and rankings of them, if at all?

What do you think of all the results presented thus far? And who else would you like to see?

It doesn't change my perception of these two all-time for a simple reason - I was aware that Wilt usually faced better competition on average. The problem I have with focusing only of percentage of good teams faced in the playoffs is that when you have good teams, you usually face weaker teams in the first two rounds (or one round in older era). Why should it make your accomplishements less impressive though? It's good to finish RS at the first spot, not bad.

About Wilt vs Kareem specifically - as I said, Lakers faced weak competition in the playoffs during 1984-89 period. Kareem was way past his best at that point. I don't see any reason to compare Wilt's 14 years career to Kareem's 19 years career. The number of weak and strong teams faced in 1987-89 period tells us nothing about prime Kareem.

[ty 4191]

It doesn't change my perception of these two all-time for a simple reason - I was aware that Wilt usually faced better competition on average. The problem I have with focusing only of percentage of good teams faced in the playoffs is that when you have good teams, you usually face weaker teams in the first two rounds (or one round in older era). Why should it make your accomplishements less impressive though? It's good to finish RS at the first spot, not bad.

It makes your accomplishments less impressive because you did it against inferior competition in the playoffs. Wilt faced MUCH better teams, overall, than Kareem, (or anyone else from that entire era), and, Wilt needs to be given full credit for that.

About Wilt vs Kareem specifically - as I said, Lakers faced weak competition in the playoffs during 1984-89 period. Kareem was way past his best at that point. I don't see any reason to compare Wilt's 14 years career to Kareem's 19 years career. The number of weak and strong teams faced in 1987-89 period tells us nothing about prime Kareem.

As I said, you want to give Kareem full credit for all the Finals and winning all the Championships with Dynastic teammates and at ATG coach around him in the 80's, but, at the same time, you say "It doesn't matter who he faced in the playoffs those years."

You can't have it both ways, brother....

[Owly]

About Wilt vs Kareem specifically - as I said, Lakers faced weak competition in the playoffs during 1984-89 period. Kareem was way past his best at that point. I don't see any reason to compare Wilt's 14 years career to Kareem's 19 years career. The number of weak and strong teams faced in 1987-89 period tells us nothing about prime Kareem.

As I said, you want to give Kareem full credit for all the Finals and winning all the Championships with Dynastic teammates and at ATG coach around him in the 80's, but, at the same time, you say "It doesn't matter who he faced in the playoffs those years."

You can't have it both ways, brother....

I would question where you have seen the poster wanting to give "full credit" to Kareem for team level achievements occurring outside Kareem's prime.

If you have such quotes then your point would indeed suggest internal inconsistency ...

[Texas Chuck]

Russell's numbers look worse only because he didn't have to face himself and Wilt did. I wouldn't use that to suggest Wilt was a better playoff performer than Russell.

I certainly would. He had to face a Dynasty for 10 years. Russell never had to face the best team in the league.

So let me get this straight. You think its more telling of how good a player is if he has to face a really good team than the guy who makes a team really good?

Do you not see how completely backwards that is?

No, you don't. Because you think its all the "hall of famers" that made Russell so successful instead of the reverse. You should take the time, since you like to talk about how much work you put in, to go look at the resumes of some of those players and then come back and with a straight face suggest they carried Bill Russell.