2021-22 NBA Season Discussion

[Dutchball97]

Another thought that I have recently - what's your take on Embiid's defense this season? I'm not impressed by his defensive effort at all vs Raptors so far. He's surrounded by very good defenders and it allows him to take possessions off on consistent basis. Do you think he'd fare better than Jokic in Joker's place?

I think he'd take some of the paint stuff away but I think he'd get killed by this lineup as well. When they played last season, Steph and Dray went at him relentlessly in the 4th quarter and Steph hit 5 threes with him playing drop in a 3 minute window. Now this team has Klay back AND Poole who's suddenly become another Curry? Not a knock on Embiid, but I just don't see any team being able to guard this lineup well. People complain about Curry being a cheat code but now they have two if Poole keeps playing like this.

I don't think it is impossible for a team to defend them well. Celtics would probably do the best but I'm high on their defense in general, when Jaylen Brown is your worst defender in the starting line-up there aren't many teams who will be able to exploit you on defense. I could also see teams like the Heat or Grizzlies do pretty well.

It's just that one player can't guard all of the threats the Warriors have and bigs especially are going to struggle against such a perimeter oriented team. If you have 4 guys who can't really guard the perimeter well, it doesn't really matter much if you put Jokic, Embiid, Gobert or even prime Bill Russell at center against the Warriors. They're not going to be able to stop them.

To be fair I'm not saying Jokic is playing perfectly either but even if he didn't make a single mistake on defense, the Nuggets would still get blown out.

[Peregrine01]

Another thought that I have recently - what's your take on Embiid's defense this season? I'm not impressed by his defensive effort at all vs Raptors so far. He's surrounded by very good defenders and it allows him to take possessions off on consistent basis. Do you think he'd fare better than Jokic in Joker's place?

I think he'd take some of the paint stuff away but I think he'd get killed by this lineup as well. When they played last season, Steph and Dray went at him relentlessly in the 4th quarter and Steph hit 5 threes with him playing drop in a 3 minute window. Now this team has Klay back AND Poole who's suddenly become another Curry? Not a knock on Embiid, but I just don't see any team being able to guard this lineup well. People complain about Curry being a cheat code but now they have two if Poole keeps playing like this.

I don't think it is impossible for a team to defend them well. Celtics would probably do the best but I'm high on their defense in general, when Jaylen Brown is your worst defender in the starting line-up there aren't many teams who will be able to exploit you on defense. I could also see teams like the Heat or Grizzlies do pretty well.

It's just that one player can't guard all of the threats the Warriors have and bigs especially are going to struggle against such a perimeter oriented team. If you have 4 guys who can't really guard the perimeter well, it doesn't really matter much if you put Jokic, Embiid, Gobert or even prime Bill Russell at center against the Warriors. They're not going to be able to stop them.

To be fair I'm not saying Jokic is playing perfectly either but even if he didn't make a single mistake on defense, the Nuggets would still get blown out.

Good point on the Celts. I think the only way to slow down this offense is to do a lot of holding and bumping off-ball to bog down that movement and then hope the refs let you get away with it. Kinda like what OKC and the Cavs did in 2016. Celts certainly play physically and get the benefit of the doubt. Warriors do have two elite on-ball creators now, which is something they never really had - not even in the KD years.

[falcolombardi]

I think he'd take some of the paint stuff away but I think he'd get killed by this lineup as well. When they played last season, Steph and Dray went at him relentlessly in the 4th quarter and Steph hit 5 threes with him playing drop in a 3 minute window. Now this team has Klay back AND Poole who's suddenly become another Curry? Not a knock on Embiid, but I just don't see any team being able to guard this lineup well. People complain about Curry being a cheat code but now they have two if Poole keeps playing like this.

I don't think it is impossible for a team to defend them well. Celtics would probably do the best but I'm high on their defense in general, when Jaylen Brown is your worst defender in the starting line-up there aren't many teams who will be able to exploit you on defense. I could also see teams like the Heat or Grizzlies do pretty well.

It's just that one player can't guard all of the threats the Warriors have and bigs especially are going to struggle against such a perimeter oriented team. If you have 4 guys who can't really guard the perimeter well, it doesn't really matter much if you put Jokic, Embiid, Gobert or even prime Bill Russell at center against the Warriors. They're not going to be able to stop them.

To be fair I'm not saying Jokic is playing perfectly either but even if he didn't make a single mistake on defense, the Nuggets would still get blown out.

Good point on the Celts. I think the only way to slow down this offense is to do a lot of holding and bumping off-ball to bog down that movement and then hope the refs let you get away with it. Kinda like what OKC and the Cavs did in 2016. Celts certainly play physically and get the benefit of the doubt. Warriors do have two elite on-ball creators now, which is something they never really had - not even in the KD years.

refs calling out warriors moving screens also would help

just kidding lol

[Doctor MJ]

Some thoughts on stuff people are riffing on here:

Booker injury aside, I’m not concerned about the Suns in this series, or the next one I think (caveat that if Luka truly emerges as the best playoff player on the planet then no opponent will be safe), but this isn’t a team with a mega SRS. They got to that elite record by being consistent. A team like that can find themselves seeming to fall back in the playoffs against teams with high ceilings.

I think they should have the best odds to win the title, but I’d take the Field over them easily. Could definitely see them losing to the Warriors, could definitely see them losing in the Finals against the Bucks again. I want to see more of the Celtics in the playoffs, but if they get Timelord back, they are certainly scary.

On Jokic - it’s a bummer how predictable the turn against him is. In the end, he has exploitable weaknesses on defense - like all big men-sized big men who aren’t ultra-mobile are - and that’s just how it goes.

Does that mean he’s worse in the PS than RS as is now suggested on the GB? Well, those folks are ridiculous, but I’ll say this:

Prior to this RS, I think Jokic was still better in tbe PS the RS. But Jokic was GOAT like in the RS this year, and so there is good reason to question whether he can match that in the PS.

I continue to feel he’s good enough to lead a team to a title with a quality supporting cast - and we should not forget how good Murray and Porter are - but I do also look at the way the 3-Rover Warriors play and can imagine a league where classical bigs are just hopelessly poor at acceleration. Not a prediction - the relative competitive advantage may still be in the side of the bigs - but it is a brave new world on the hardwood.

And yeah, I’m more worried about the defensive-oriented guys than the offensive, because you run the risk of losing the thing that gets you on the court. Gobert is not the weak link of the Jazz playoff defense, but if he cannot function as defensive erasers of old, the Jazz may end up better off re-constituting everything around Mitchell.

Over in the East, the Brooklyn experiment remains the most extreme I think I’ve ever seen and I must acknowledge that Kylie’s individual brilliance keeps growing into something more and more singular in the history of the NBA. I still think they get eliminated in the first or second round - though I must acknowledge a bias where I want them to fail.

I want the NBA to be about teamwork and wherever I see stars treat teammates as disposable - Nets, Lakers, and Harden on whatever team he’s on - I cheer against. But while I have reason to believe the way I like is the optimal way to play…things can change.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Outside]

I'm not concerned about the Suns losing the series, but the loss to the Pels, particularly the way they lost, is concerning. Their defense was surprisingly poor. Yes, the Pels shot really well, but the Suns left them open far too much. Phoenix didn't do a good job of reacting, let alone imposing their will defensively. This is supposed to be a defense that is good enough to take options away, but they were having trouble with basic rotations. And they weren't good enough offensively to overcome that.

Booker's hamstring issue is not good. You can't play through a hamstring strain. Hopefully, he'll be good by the next round. If they can't beat the Pelicans without him, then they aren't good enough to contend anyway.

[parsnips33]

By the way, I haven't watched Suns vs Pelicans game 2 and I'm quite shocked that they lost even with Booker injury. Anything concerning for Suns fans?

I just tuned in for the 4th quarter, but it honestly looked like Phoenix just wasn't taking things seriously. They didn't seem to attack with much urgency and even gave up a basket in transition after a make with like 5:00 left and the game still close

[falcolombardi]

the thingh that really concerns me with jokic defense is not as much the perimeter defense

is that i have seen statistics posted (which i unfortunately csnnot find again) that say he allows a really bad percentage of shots in the paint to go in AND defends a huge amount og shots in the paint

the latter should be a positive in a vacuum but combined with the former....it paints a worrysome picture of a center teams dont fear attacking inside and are proven right in doing so

i need to look into data (and confirm that data*) further, but is a worrisome data point

[falcolombardi]

I'm not concerned about the Suns losing the series, but the loss to the Pels, particularly the way they lost, is concerning. Their defense was surprisingly poor. Yes, the Pels shot really well, but the Suns left them open far too much. Phoenix didn't do a good job of reacting, let alone imposing their will defensively. This is supposed to be a defense that is good enough to take options away, but they were having trouble with basic rotations. And they weren't good enough offensively to overcome that.

Booker's hamstring issue is not good. You can't play through a hamstring strain. Hopefully, he'll be good by the next round. If they can't beat the Pelicans without him, then they aren't good enough to contend anyway.

i womder if securing the league best record so early is affecting them now

the last full month of the season was essentially garbage time for them

[Outside]

I'm not concerned about the Suns losing the series, but the loss to the Pels, particularly the way they lost, is concerning. Their defense was surprisingly poor. Yes, the Pels shot really well, but the Suns left them open far too much. Phoenix didn't do a good job of reacting, let alone imposing their will defensively. This is supposed to be a defense that is good enough to take options away, but they were having trouble with basic rotations. And they weren't good enough offensively to overcome that.

Booker's hamstring issue is not good. You can't play through a hamstring strain. Hopefully, he'll be good by the next round. If they can't beat the Pelicans without him, then they aren't good enough to contend anyway.

i womder if securing the league best record so early is affecting them now

the last full month of the season was essentially garbage time for them

My guess is that they'll find their energy level eventually. Now that they've been to the finals, they likely don't have quite the same level of urgency from the start that they had last season. Of course, playing the Lakers in the first round probably got their attention more than playing the Pelicans. A little adversity may ultimately wind up doing them some good and help them find their focus.

[Doctor MJ]

I'm not concerned about the Suns losing the series, but the loss to the Pels, particularly the way they lost, is concerning. Their defense was surprisingly poor. Yes, the Pels shot really well, but the Suns left them open far too much. Phoenix didn't do a good job of reacting, let alone imposing their will defensively. This is supposed to be a defense that is good enough to take options away, but they were having trouble with basic rotations. And they weren't good enough offensively to overcome that.

Booker's hamstring issue is not good. You can't play through a hamstring strain. Hopefully, he'll be good by the next round. If they can't beat the Pelicans without him, then they aren't good enough to contend anyway.

i womder if securing the league best record so early is affecting them now

the last full month of the season was essentially garbage time for them

My guess is that they'll find their energy level eventually. Now that they've been to the finals, they likely don't have quite the same level of urgency from the start that they had last season. Of course, playing the Lakers in the first round probably got their attention more than playing the Pelicans. A little adversity may ultimately wind up doing them some good and help them find their focus.

I get that logic for a team by that description, but it doesn't make sense why they'd play the regular season with such intensity - well beyond the results they needed to get HCA throughout the playoffs - and then coast in the first round.

I think it's important we don't overreact to one game, especially one where a star gets hurt midway through, but the Suns' whole MO was that they took care of business game in and game out, so I don't want to assume they can reach a higher level of intensity than what they show us. A higher level - with full health as opposed to the injuries they played through in the RS - perhaps, but intensity? I don't think there is another switch for them to flip there.

[The High Cyde]

One thing of concern is that NO was able to hang with the Suns with Booker on fire, and now I just don’t see where the offense is going to come from on the regular. It’s a tall order for CP to score 30 consistently while being hounded by Herb Jones and Alvarado all game. Bridges will have his hands full with Ingram and CJ, and Jonas can put points on the board too so Ayton will also need to be sharp. Crowder just disappeared in game 2.

Bridges, Ayton, and Cam Johnson will have to step up quite significantly.

Don’t want to be too reactionary, but this can be an upset.

[RCM88x]

Phoenixes defense is the problem not their offense. No matter how good their offense is, if they are giving up a 120 offensive rating to the freaking Pelicans then they are hopeless unless there is a massive turnaround.

[Texas Chuck]

I have zero concerns about the Suns beating the Pels with or without Booker. But I do realize in short series why people react so strongly to one loss. But we didn't have an exposure of fatal flaws or anything here.

[falcolombardi]

jimmys problem is he needs a team that can match his energy. all the loser teams failed him he is like MJ's forbidden son.
only miami can tame him which is why i root for miami. i would gift jimmy to punch someone just like MJ did it to kerr to make him grow up.

you might call me crazy but jimmy is the only guy i can root for in this league that has old mans game. rest of guys are tissue soft i dont even want to bother watching. if you want to win a title you need jimmys perfectionist attitude otherwise ur just playing for money,fame.

general board commebt that i found absolutely wild and i think it shows some of my issues with modern bssketbsll discourse (also found it funny lol)

everyione is weirdly obsessed with this weird idea of toughness that sometimes literally amounts to "be an ****", "punch teammates", "mock/humilliate others"

thinghs like actuslly playing well under adversity or pressure and a drive to comstsntly work on your game seemingly have nothingh to do, being a good teammate is a sign of "softness"

and for all people are obsessed with ring counting above all they are still very quick to make "excuses" for players they like under some veener of "toughness" or "being an alpha" among other buzzwords

[SeniorWalker]

One thing of concern is that NO was able to hang with the Suns with Booker on fire, and now I just don’t see where the offense is going to come from on the regular. It’s a tall order for CP to score 30 consistently while being hounded by Herb Jones and Alvarado all game. Bridges will have his hands full with Ingram and CJ, and Jonas can put points on the board too so Ayton will also need to be sharp. Crowder just disappeared in game 2.

Bridges, Ayton, and Cam Johnson will have to step up quite significantly.

Don’t want to be too reactionary, but this can be an upset.

I'm also a little nervous about this. I don't think its gonna happen but this feels like one of those series where it could. CP3 is an excellent complimentary scorer but at his age If he has to carry the Suns offense for 3 more wins thats going to be a problem.

Hopefully the Suns pull out the series win though. I'm not exactly a CP3 fan but it would feel almost unfair for their season to suddenly end like this.

I like NO young squad too. They're a fun team that doesn't seem to care who they're playing, they'll still challenge them.

[SeniorWalker]

the thingh that really concerns me with jokic defense is not as much the perimeter defense

is that i have seen statistics posted (which i unfortunately csnnot find again) that say he allows a really bad percentage of shots in the paint to go in AND defends a huge amount og shots in the paint

the latter should be a positive in a vacuum but combined with the former....it paints a worrysome picture of a center teams dont fear attacking inside and are proven right in doing so

i need to look into data (and confirm that data*) further, but is a worrisome data point

I also have a slight agenda myself for Jokic specifically and that is to see what his individual offense looks like in these kind of situations where he's completely outmatched. The defense I already expected, Jokic doesn't have the footspeed to contend against teams that can run him to death. Just look at how utterly exhausted he looked on the bench in game 2, it was awful out there.

But my question is about offense only because, as others have mentioned, in the RS he's looked basically g.o.a.t. tier and I want to see how much of that is sustainable in series where he's gameplanned against. This is not me saying "I don't think Jokic is an elite offensive star"....remember I said he's like Larry Bird 2.0 and he's already shown he can still score. I just want to see what it looks like when he has to impose his will, when he's forced to be like LeBron in the 2015 finals, win or lose. That way it'll be easier to conceptualize the more idealized rosters around him. I've been wondering who his ideal #2 guy is and I don't know yet, I'm trying to understand better what he can and can't do.

Ofc I expected the nuggets to lose to basically anyone they played, they're not a good team with all their eggs in the Jokic basket. Its why I have some issues with redefining MVP as mentioned, because I don't think the most valuable player should necessarily always be the guy that fills in the most holes on a mediocre cast.

[The High Cyde]

One thing of concern is that NO was able to hang with the Suns with Booker on fire, and now I just don’t see where the offense is going to come from on the regular. It’s a tall order for CP to score 30 consistently while being hounded by Herb Jones and Alvarado all game. Bridges will have his hands full with Ingram and CJ, and Jonas can put points on the board too so Ayton will also need to be sharp. Crowder just disappeared in game 2.

Bridges, Ayton, and Cam Johnson will have to step up quite significantly.

Don’t want to be too reactionary, but this can be an upset.

I'm also a little nervous about this. I don't think its gonna happen but this feels like one of those series where it could. CP3 is an excellent complimentary scorer but at his age If he has to carry the Suns offense for 3 more wins thats going to be a problem.

Hopefully the Suns pull out the series win though. I'm not exactly a CP3 fan but it would feel almost unfair for their season to suddenly end like this.

I like NO young squad too. They're a fun team that doesn't seem to care who they're playing, they'll still challenge them.

They’re also going back to NO where the Pels can definitely win a game, and I actually expect them to. Idk we just have to wait to see Game 3. NO is going to go balls to the walls and try to run the Suns out the gym. They have the horses to do it, so Monty might have to slow the game down somehow.

Shoot in the game thread I was talking about Booker making the leap to the next tier, but it might be Ingram.

[MartinToVaught]

The Pelicans shot 57% from 3, that isn't really sustainable throughout the whole series.

All Willie has to do is tell them to pretend they're playing the Clippers instead of the Suns, then it'll be sustainable. Hell, that percentage would probably go up 10%.

[The High Cyde]

jimmys problem is he needs a team that can match his energy. all the loser teams failed him he is like MJ's forbidden son.
only miami can tame him which is why i root for miami. i would gift jimmy to punch someone just like MJ did it to kerr to make him grow up.

you might call me crazy but jimmy is the only guy i can root for in this league that has old mans game. rest of guys are tissue soft i dont even want to bother watching. if you want to win a title you need jimmys perfectionist attitude otherwise ur just playing for money,fame.

general board commebt that i found absolutely wild and i think it shows some of my issues with modern bssketbsll discourse (also found it funny lol)

everyione is weirdly obsessed with this weird idea of toughness that sometimes literally amounts to "be an ****", "punch teammates", "mock/humilliate others"

thinghs like actuslly playing well under adversity or pressure and a drive to comstsntly work on your game seemingly have nothingh to do, being a good teammate is a sign of "softness"

and for all people are obsessed with ring counting above all they are still very quick to make "excuses" for players they like under some veener of "toughness" or "being an alpha" among other buzzwords

This is the result of the NBA and the media deifying Jordan. His legend or myth has grown larger than the player. Which was the intent I guess.

[The High Cyde]

The Pelicans shot 57% from 3, that isn't really sustainable throughout the whole series.

All Willie has to do is tell them to pretend they're playing the Clippers instead of the Suns, then it'll be sustainable.

Lue would’ve been ruthless if Booker had gone down had the Clips made it, but alas, we weren’t good enough. Smh maybe next year. Those play-in games cost the Clips big.